Water Police unable to identify PFD1

[Mr__Bean]

Hmmmmm,

Good topic (PFD1 marking) brought down into a shit fight again.

Usual players, usual tactics, just shooting in from the sidelines..........

Makes you wonder if it is worth puting up posts here sometimes.

- Darren

[Fish Guts]

whats wrong with expressing ones opinion ? put your posts up somewhere else then.

[subzero]

DING DONG! Round 2

Life Jackets/Vests must reach minimum standards that are set by the Gov in consultation with parties that should have an input in to why these things are done or changed. These important groups are invited to attend as representatives of all boaters both recreational and commercial. Recommendations for and against any changes or proposals are forth comming from these meetings. The final decisions are not nessecarily made by those advisory groups but changes are not normally made just for the hell of it.

Australia must fall in to line with many other countries so as to meet the minimum standards that are required by not just this country but others as well.

My guess is either locally (Australia) or internationaly (Whom we try to fall in to line with), their has been a problem with boat owners not being able TO IDENTIFY the type of jackets/vests required and not the Water Police. Consequently the new requirement (If it is) to clearly lable the jackets.

What some people need to remember is that you can not only look at it from the perspective of the type of operation you perform in your 15 foot tinnie as opposed to many others with a few more $ that may travel to NZ, Noumea, Fiji and the USA etc. Wouldnt it be a bastard to keep up with each countries laws regarding the equipment carried and getting pinged at each and every port when you arrive and get your customs inspection done because you dont have their local standard on the jacket. (It may be of a higher standard and be acceptable of course).

The idea with standards is that the item must reach that standard as a minimum. In this instance these standards relate to the purpose for which the jacket/vest should be used in. Consequently, if the standard your piece of equipment is higher it covers those items below it. i.e. You can wear any life jacket to water ski in. It doesnt have to be a PFD 3, it could be a Solas Jacket. (Although you may break your neck and it would be extremely uncomfortable, its just an example).

For a jacket to have been deemed a SOLAS jacket and carry the ships wheel logo means that it has met rigorous testing and is an International standard in its own right accepted worldwide as the vessels that normally carry them travel world wide so they wont say PFD 1 as the SOLAS are superior to a PDF 1 as they are also superior to a Coastal Life Jacket, as a Coastal Jacket is superior to a PFD 1 and so on.

The order of heirarchy from the least to the highest ratings which is based on their usage and the expectations placed on them is below.
PFD 3
PFD 2
PFD 1
Coastal Jacket
SOLAS Jacket

Each has a different purpose, in thes cases of life jackets/vests the standards of all contries are desighned to be interchangeable to a certain extent. Some ammendments are made Internationaly and all countries that are signatories must fall in to line to meet those requirements. Some of the big players are the IMO, the USL code, the ITU, IALA and so on. (Even the major insurance companies such as Lloyds will have a say in what go's on at this level for obvious reasons). If it is agreed to change anything at this level then guess what, it changes even if Australia voted against it.

The testing to meet these standards is practical. Things that have to be met to acheive the standard will be that they measure up with things such as Bouancy. 1 Newton = 1kg from memory. If the standard says that a jacket must support 80 Newtons (80kg) of unresponsive weight in an upright possition, for a minimum of 120 hours (5 days) in a sea state of 4 in 25 kn winds using the Moscowitz sea spectrum scale then that is what it must do as a bare minimum.
Common requirements depending on usage are logos, Body Mass weights displayed, Standards either International or local, torches, reflectors, UV ratings, crotch straps, head supports, batch codes and dates and so on.

Remember that

• Not everything is always about revenue raising
• Not everything is about some buerocrat trying to justify his job
• Australia may not have a choice in any ammendments it has to make
• Water Police, DPI etc enforce the legislation put in place by the Gov that was democraticly voted in by the majority of Australians
• Their are those that want harsher standards and those that want lesser Standards just as can be seen in this thread. A level has to be reached where the majority of the people are going to be compliant the majority of the time without being belted with a big stick or rebelling against the legislation put in place
• No one has to accept an on the spot fine. To my knowledge, in Australia you still have the right to defend yourself, therefore if you feel hard done by... defend it!!!
• A life jacket that fell apart after a couple oif years, if stored by the manufacturers instructions is a MAJOR problem. (If it did report it to AMSA as their probably needs to be a product recall)
• Generally you get what you pay for, buy quality and things tend to last. Pay bugger all and you get crap and will be replacing things more frequently!
• People in Ausfish are here because they want to learn... myself included!. Many Rec boaters and even some commercial boaters are not as converant with the basic requirements as the majority of the people in here are. I CAN SEE A HUGE NEED for life jackets to be labled with what type of jacket they are. A new boater, be it a retiree who has never set foot in a boat before purchases his first boat and buys a PFD3 in stead of a PDF1 because he doesnt know the different requirements between the jackets and their usages. We all know from past experiences that in many instances the sales people in the shops may not be all that smart (or all that honest) when we ask them for their advice but when new to all this we probably took their advice.
• Rules, regulations, guides and training manuals are never written specificly with you in mind. They are written for the people that wont or cant adhere to common sense or for those that are not the brightest in the class and may not understand
• For those that DONT want to live by the rule of the majority, thats a bit unfortunate for both you and I guess us as well. Choices are made when we place our elected officials in office. If we dont like the job they are doing, we vote them out. If we dont have rules we have anarchy.
• We cant choose which rules suit us

Cheers Lloyd

[subzero]

Here is a good example of an ammendment from MSQ to meet Aust NZ & Int Standards with life jackets. Now a lot of this stuff means nothing to me, that is why representatives such as those from BIAQ etc have an input on our behalf.
(pdf doc). I hope it works, havent tried to attach a file since the new site was put up

Check this page out as well.
Many of the changes, proposals on here may open up many more cans of worms as well
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Home/Publi...ion_bulletins/

[gawby]

Top Shelf SUBZERO

Graeme

[tigermullet]

Very well put Subzero! That should calm some down a bit - me included. Reading your posts was like having a dose of Prozac.

It's a pity in a way - there's nothing like a good 'stir'.

Now we must return to rational thinking and reasonable acceptance of standards.

Damn!

[Kerry]

A far more important issue with regrads life jackets is this one. Be proactive, make your submission now or forever hold your peace.

http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/resources/...sues_paper.pdf

[subzero]

Its interesting to note that of the 41 fatalities in 2005 on the water

• 82% of the incidents occured in clear weather
• 79% involved Rec Boaters
• 89% were male
• 10% at least had a contributing factor of alcohol or drugs
• Approximately 50% of these deaths are attributed to either a boat capsizing or a person falling overboard

Of the 1,389 reported incidents their were

• 41 Deaths
• 133 serious injurys
• 141 minor injuries
• The remaining incidents did not result in any reported injuries
• The largest number of incidents occured in the summer months (31%)
• The least number occured in the winter months (19%)
• 65% of the incidents took place between the hours of 9am to 6pm (Daylight)
• Vessel collisions made up 23% of incidents
• Unintentional groundings 14%

Yes I am aware statistics can be led in the direction wanted by the person compiling those statistics, but I PERSONALY dont doubt them.... in fact in a couple of areas I though the percentages would have been higher.

Cheers Lloyd

This information was taken from the National Marine Safety Committees website at http://www.nmsc.gov.au/researchdata_...ident2005.html
Their is more information and graphs available on their site if interested

[tigermullet]

If I am reading those figures correctly and they are national numbers then surely 20 deaths per annum are an acceptable attrition rate and should not warrant the need for everyone to wear life jackets.

The numbers, though regrettable for the individual's families, would hardly register on the scale of deaths caused by simple accidents around the home, farm etc., to say nothing of vehicle accidents or even sugical accidents.

[Runamuck]

[quote=tigermullet;579947]In the boating section of the Sunday Mail 18-02-2007 this article was found which states, inter alia, -- Even safety jackets maintained in excellent condition and stamped with the Australian standards 1512 number are now obsolete. The new legislation requires all jackets to have the words PFD type 1, PFD type 2 or PFD type 3 clearly marked in block letters not less than 6mm high.quote]

Has anyone actually sighted this new leislation or only what has been written in the paper????

[tigermullet]

Haven't actually sighted the legislation but MSQ assure that the information in the newspaper is correct in all of its detail. Principally the jackets must have the Manufacturer's Name or trademark date of manufacture model and batch numbers plus the marking PFD 1, 2, 3 as appropriate and a reference to ASA 1512. The jackets, as far as I know, must have reflective tape and, I think, donning and care instructions.

[subzero]

Ahhh tigermullet, I had a feeling you would be the first to comment on this and what your comment would be

41 deaths, not 20 as I read it.

• To those family members that recieve the news of a lost loved one as a result of a boating death, I am sure at least that 1 person is not acceptable
• To the Police Officer that delivers that news, I am sure 1 person is not acceptable
• To the person responsible for the death of that 1 person, I am sure it is not acceptable
• To whom ever discovers the deceased person, I am sure it is not acceptable
• To whom ever pulls that person out of the water as bits and pieces fall off is not acceptable. (Not all areas have the luxury of a Police Barge to scoop them up semi intact)
• Even the insurance company will find that 1 persons death unacceptable
• I am sure their are many others that find it unacceptable as well

Now dont get me wrong, I believe the figures are very good, its like anything though you dont want them to slip back and if anything you want them to improve.

Now the biggest problem with those boaties that dont consider their life to be of any great consequence, is that as the master of their vessel they set those same poor standards for those persons on their vessel. (For instance their own children). Later, if they survive growing up, they also may perpetuate the attitude toward safety and place little value on peoples lives.

Personally would not want to impinge on any ADULTS rights. Nor will I critisize their right to make choices as long as they are prepared to suffer the consequences if they are caught or something goes wrong. Unfortunately those consequences may have a defastating effect on others as well however but unless that person cares for those that care for him I guess it wont really matter that much.
If people choose not to abide by normal priciples it is unfortunate that we cant identify those that feel worthless so we would know not to contact the Police, coroners, next of kin, freinds of family etc and just leave the bodies floating around the bay as they are so insignificant... which in itself is not practicable... someone may foul their props on them or if you are a fat bugger like myself I might even damage your hull if I am reasonably fresh and you hit me at speed

For those that dont want to abide by the laws of the land (Or water) I wont loose too much sleep if I know how you feel about yourself, I will loose a lot of sleep if I am involved in pulling your children out of the water. Especially young ones whom look up to a responsible ADULT.

My Brother wasnt fond of rules, he lost his license for Drink Driving in NZ several times, kept getting caught while driving disqualified so he decided that Australia was the answer... came here, got a new license and promptly killed himself drunken driving by falling asleep at the wheel. Now the funny thing is that if he had been wearing his safety belt he would not have been killed. He was 27 and I was 24, I learnt from his experience. Just another rule though that he wasnt fond of. (He was thrown across the front seet and smashed the rear of his head in on the door pillar so it is guaranteed he would have survived the impact). Now the bad part of that happening was that it devastated mysel, my mother and my sister. We were very close but to this day I consider him to have been very selfish in his respect for the Law, those whom cared for him and of course himself. I can safely say that the Police women that delivered the news was also greatly affected. It was her first notification and she stayed with mum for over 2 hours sobbing her heart out as well. I am sure it would be equaly traumatic for the Ambo's, Police, Fireman and those that discover the deceased persons, particularly if it is their first few times. (Some never learn to handle it and have to leave the job).

I really dont have the time continuing this conversation as I am a slow typist and I really should head to the hospital to visit my wife.

tigermullet, I am not having a shot at you, you will know if I am, all I have to say is I am sure their are many people that would be greatly affected if you were to become one of those statistics.... YES EVEN ONE

Regards
Lloyd

[tigermullet]

Sorry Subzero - I have also been affected in the manner you describe but by the death of a friend , not a brother, in very similar circumstance and had to carry out the identification, notification etc. The viewing of broken bodies and attendance of post mortem examination is not something that any one would take or remember lightly. It is absolutely sad and, for some, just devastating.

Death by accident is tragic and unfortunately there will be other accidents that have dreadful affects on relatives, friends, rescue personnel etc., but we cannot be kept absolutely safe no matter the activity.

What I was getting at was that boating is a very ordinary activity and not at all as risky as some other activities. It seems to me that crossing the road has more hazard.

As far as personal example to children is concerned, mine were always taught to take precautions and they certainly wore life jackets whilst on board. Same for seatbelts - I was wearing shoulder harness type belts well before the wearing of belts became compulsory - the children were taught likewise and I don't think they have ever been in a vehicle without being 'belted up'. On a holiday in New Zealand we hired car that was not fitted out with rear seat belts (at that time it was not compulsory to wear them as a rear seat passenger) I refused to take it and was eventually given a vehicle fully fitted out with belts.

The value of seat belts had been driven home to me by a couple of nasty accidents in which I was involved in my youth.

However, I cannot equate the wearing of seat belts with wearing of life jackets at all times on board a boat. The chances of death caused by falling out of a boat are very small. In your quote you had 41 deaths by boating accident but only 50% of those were caused by accidental immersion. Therefore that is about twenty per year. I do not know they number of deaths per year caused by accident in Australia but I doubt that the extra number of 20 would even cause a statistical blip.

That should not be read as callousness. Accidental death is just part of the risk we all run. And would the wearing of life jackets reduce the number? It might not, given that some would perhaps have a greater feeling of security and be less risk averse. Restricted mobility on board could also add to the number of accidents if the bulky life jackets were chosen.

And then we have the question of comfort. Sitting out in a boat in the summer and having to wear a life jacket would be an exquisite form of torture.

Finally, I apologise if my previous posts have been taken as having a callous disregard for life and a disregard for the feelings of those affected by death of loved ones. That is just not the case - I have done my share of crying with grief.

My assessment of boating and fishing etc., is that it is a low risk activity for most and should not be regulated with a heavy hand. I do believe that a responsible boatie should assess the level of risk and be prepared i.e., if you are going out wide your boat must be up to the task and equipment should be more than would be carried if choosing to stooge around in calm water.

[subzero]

Fair enough tigermullet, it appears I have unfairly missjudged you as to the standards you set on your boat, and the fact that you do consider life isnt cheap. I respect your views and opinions, in the above post they probably arent all that far removed off my own in reality.

I had better call time on this post as since my Wife ended up in hospital I have discovered that the washing doesnt get done by itself, nor the dishes, the ironing, the groceries and the house get cleaned either. I have further discovered that living of takeaways for 5 days becomes very unpallatable so it is time to cook a proper meal with bucket loads ov vegies.
I guess after 29 years of marriage you tend to forget those things you had to do when you were single.
I have discovered that the kids dont help out as much as I thought and it appears she also works harder than I thought...... consequently it is time to put on my apron..... and maybe, just maybe give the kids a really strong talking too.... 21 and 19, LAZY BLOODY SHITS!!!!
All the best
Cheers Lloyd

[BilgeBoy]

Here is an idea for you all...

Perhaps post the old jackets (The ones without the PDF in print) to the department or your local member...with a nice little note that says...


NO GOOD TO ME ANYMORE PERHAPS YOU CAN FIND A USE FOR THEM.

Can just see the looks on their faces now....all those little blue cards in their PO Box. Hope they have to wait in line at the post office like the rest of us.

BilgeBoy