Here is a small example of the "law unto themselves" attitude of the GBRMPA.
On Tuesday John Tanzer, executive director of GBRMPA is quoted in the Cairns post defending the marine park maps and rejecting calls for the redrawing of boundaries.
The actual "judgement", now to hand, says in part "I (being the magistrate)take the view that for a mariner to rely soley on the information contained in the MPZ30 map,constitutes negligence within the meaning of the Commonwealth Criminal Code"
These are the same "Maps" which have been used by GBRMPA in court prosecutions and the same maps we told them 4 years ago were wrong!!
The maps do need to be redrawn and the lines and reference points positioned so as they can be transposed onto an official hydrographic chart.
This should also be a lesson for future MPA's Australia wide.
GBRMPA are not above the law....they need to listen for a change.
This issue still has legs a a few more days to run in the press and then some more work to do to get it fixed.
KC
Congratulations to all involved.
As I understand RAAF,Navy,Customs,Coastwatch etc, can not
rely solely on GPS data to prosecute incursions into Australian Waters, so.
why should GBRMPA. Oh thats right their an arrogant bunch of
A..holes who think they can do anything.
Cheers Mick
Well Im confused about all of this.Originally Posted by kc
Charts, any charts, are used as a "guide" to navigation. Whether I pick up a kids painting of the barrier reef or an official hydrographic chart I consider both as merely a guide - nothing else.
What I am purely interested in when I go fishing is the long/lat (WGS84) coordinates on these GBRMPA charts (and for sure where the reef is, depth etc ) that define a boundry of a particular zone. These long/lats are written on these GBRMPA charts such as the MPZ30.
I input those coordinates into my GPS and create a line between them. I then know not to pass that line. How that line is transposed onto any chart doesnt concern me. Its the line and my relative position to it that concerns me.
I know my GPS unit is generally accurate within 3 metres (it actually tells me the error at any particular time which is generally 3 metres or below). I have a Garmin 12. Newer GPSs actually show a ring around your vessel showing error.
I hear some people say that the use of a GPS alone to define a position is flawed. Well OK they could use a radar (generally accepted that you include a .2nm error when using it for navigation), a sextant (you would generally accept that you would be out by minutes) , a compass (merely a bearing) , a sounder (well depends where you are), a tape measurer (I hope they make them in lengths of nm).
GPS has been widely accepted as one of the best means of finding a position on this planet. Hell you can even use a combination of them to find true north. Ive used them for years and they are just so damn good whether in a car, on a farm, camping, hiking, boating - whatever.
I agree with some of what the magistrate was saying in regards to "inaccuracy". yeh sure GPS does have some error but there will be an error in any form of measurement in determining a location. How that error is catagorised is important. GPS error of today is generally measured in less than 10 metres. Throw a DGPS into the mix and its within a metre.
At the end of the day our legal system relies on "beyond a reasonable doubt" . Doubt a GPS unit? I have never doubted mine. Works a treat.
Last edited by thargor; 24-02-2007 at 06:35 PM.
Hi thargor,
This apparent scorn for the gps is also perplexing for me.
Take me to any point out within reach of my boat(100km's out if necessary).Let me punch a button on my gps and I will take you back to that exact same spot tomorrow.
As I have said before, if you have been found to be fishing just inside a green zone(a warning might be sufficient).If you are obviously fishing in a green zone and are caught then pay the fine(nowadays) and accept responsibility for your actions.
Me personally,I just find somewhere to fish where there is no danger of encroaching on a green zone.
Fishing is about relaxation and enjoyment for me
Why would i want to jeopardize it by a run in with the fishery boys.
cheers Scott
Hi Thargor and Scott,
You are both right!! But unfortunately its not really about "to GPS or not to GPS" its about points of law... its weird really what seems to make common sense may not be "lawful".
I, like you, trust my GPS it's pretty good most of the time - unless it runs out of batteries or something else... Oh and the unit is only as good as the operator - personally I dont know how to set it up so that I can make a way point at the different green zones entry points and have it tell me when I have crossed an invisible line - particularly when I have it zoomed right in and cant see where the next entry point is so I can draw my invisible line. I personally dont like it how they were able to give someone a criminal conviction due to his/her lack of knowledge on how to effectively use a GPS. Anyway - if I punched in all the co-ordinates for every green zone - I wouldnt have enough room for my own spot x's.
But thats my personal beef with the whole system... comes down to user knowledge I suppose - Just wouldnt want to be one of the 322 other guys who got convicted because of that!
So if they can slow the GBRMPA "police" down a little bit with legal mumbo jumbo and get some guys who are as bad as me with their GPS's off the hook - then yippee I say!
Just my two cents!
Adam
I don't think the scorn is directed at the GPS system perse,
Perhaps if the prosecution was to present evidence from
a USA defence official that the data supplied to an individual
GPS receiver was 100 percent accurate at any given specific time.
(Hardly likely)
To rely on the data as uncorroborated evidence is unacceptable.
Everyone knows there are errors in the GPS system, mine regularly
has my boat 150m above sea level (yes it is in the water), and
when it comes to evidence, either it is 100 percent fact or corroborated
by some other means.
cheers Mick
Adam and Mick,
I understand the legal arguement pertaining to the point of law which suggests that because the gps system is not 100 percent accurate that any conviction arising from its use to convict said person is legally wrong.
What I dont understand is people who state that they do not know how to properly use their gps or dont trust its accuracy,being anywhere near the vicinity of a green zone.
Ignorance is no excuse.
cheers Scott
Just to clarify TFPQ has no problem with GPS. It has a problem with the way they were used in respect of criminal proceedings. Same same with the MPZ maps.
Many of those breached actually had no GPS and in many cases no maps either. There were very occassional fishers and had, in some cases, no idea about the zones. Does that make then criminals? Ignorance is no excuse....but.....let the punishment fit the crime.
If this had been, as it is now, an on the spot fine (a parking ticket) it would never have been an issue.
TFPQ feels it should do whatever it can to have convictions overturned and the authorities have not followed the rules of evidence in respect of the use of GPS. This is their own fault.
KC
I dont think it is a matter of excuse, IE ignorance, user error etc.
In fact I don't think the individuals GPS unit (or lack of) is in question.
The prosecution must provide evidence as to an individuals location
(if they intend to use GPS data, it must be corroborated by some other
means). They then have to show that this individual location is within
the boundaries of a green zone (If the location is 10m or 10km within
the green zone is not relevant)
cheers Mick
It's interesting stuff GPS accuracy etc. I've had a look at my GBRMPA Maps and boundaries are actual Lat and Long. A GPS is just the most effective method of determining your Lat and Long. Transposing onto hydrographic charts is a problem. My AUS charts are still in AGD66 datum so there is a NE SW shift. The GBRMPA charts are on wgs84 and the lat and long are wgs84, so they actually match up. The chartplotters all have wgs84 as their default and most now have the green zones on their charts.
I did a bit of digging and believe the guys the subject of the court decision were in the order of 600metres inside the green zone and within sight of the Cay. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. The type of offence that's worried me has been a troll line out the back of a cruising Yacht, not likely to catch any fish anyway. The on the spot fine approach is a good change.
I also note most people are quoting 300 odd convictions since the rezoning. I have been told there have been about 110 convictions and about 160 warnings for fishing in Green Zones since the new zoning came in in 2004. It's good to see people trying to get the system right, at the moment its pretty murky.
The figures I have heard quoted are 322 - but the the media release from Mike Horans office said 320, with another 40 in the pipeline. Does anyone have actual figures?I also note most people are quoting 300 odd convictions since the rezoning. I have been told there have been about 110 convictions and about 160 warnings for fishing in Green Zones since the new zoning came in in 2004. It's good to see people trying to get the system right, at the moment its pretty murky.
Adam
Between July 2004 and October 2006 there have been 322 convictions. All but 2 of these have been given criminal records.
We have a list of all cases, names and outcomes.
KC
This has legs again. As at 28th March the DPP has announced it will appeal the decision to a higher court.
The ramifications of this are enormous and as such the case will have a very significant media profile.
With this going to a higher court it will set legal precident. Where the Government had a moral obligation to wipe convictions, if the original judgement is upheld by the appeals court they will then have a legal obligation to wipe convictions and repay all fines.
This is a big deal and no doubt LOTS of moeny and resources will be thrown at this.
We may well be faced with the somewhat absurd situation where the crown, via its maritime safety authority, convict commercial skippers who rely soley on GPS and have an accident and at the same time, convict fishers using soley GPS to determine position.
This is just so typical of the GBRMPA and its standover tactics. It would have been so easy to just admit a procedural error and confirm future GPS breach fixes with some compass or radar bearings...but no...rather than admit they f&^% up they would rather spend money....our taxes...on a high court challenge.
The big issue is, as we see it, the Government is on a hiding to nothing. If the DPP wins the appeal, does that then give anyone convicted of USING GPS as the sole means of fixing a position (and having an accident) grounds to appeal their conviction?
What the law is trying to do here is firstly overide the manufacturers own instructions. to whit :Warning. This device is an aid to navigation only. Not to be used for navigation purposes!!
This whole saga now has a ways to go and will hot up significantly.
Watch this space.
KC
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