Legal 4WD Modifications - QLD & NSW

[bootyinblue]

Sorry I mean't the safety airbag that pops out of your steering wheel if you crash,these make a bodylify or bullbar illegal.
Regards Charlie

Ohhh Charlie, where did you hear such crap from? Airbag compliant bullbars have been on the market as long as ARS fitted vehicles have. Also when you submit your application for a vehicle modification (ie body lift) items such as interference with airbags and the like is taken into consideration.

CHISEL - There might be a lot of 4wds running around with 'mildy illegal' tyres, but I bet I have access to more ticketbooks than 4wd's!! Nah seriously, tyres which fall outside the modification limits do render the vehicle as 'non compliant' with the TORUMS. As viewed by the insurance company, a 'non compliant' vehicle should not be on the road, therefore should not have been involved in the traffic accident, therefore should not be in a position to make a claim, therefore said insurance company should not pay out the claim..... Get my drift.... I have seen it happen!

Another scenario which might cause trouble could be when I was living in another State and also in a different profession. I was running 33 Mud Terrains under my Pajero. Looked great, chics dug it, but I couldnt turn left real well!!

[Fat Chilli]

Chisel - re: Insurance, I'm no expert and others may either work in the industry or have greater or first hand experience, but if the component, e.g. tyres are or could have been a contributing factor to the incident then they will most certainly refuse to accept the claim.

Re: the Bullbar and Airbag questions: Again to the best of my knowledge (my clause )

Bullbars and airbags, needing an air bag compatable / compliant bullbars, I think this depends on the location of the impact sensors to deploy airbags, some vehicles locate them toward in the area of the crumple zone. These impact sensors are accerometers which sense the rate of deceleration. A microprocessor in the ACM (Airbag Control Module) monitors the impact sensor signal, which using a pre- programmed decision algorithm determines when the deceleration rate indicates an impact severe enough to deploy the airbags. - Bullbars for these vehicles generally have crumble zones included in the bars design, so as not to effect the manufacturers sensor specifications.

Other vehicles, e.g. my Jeep, don't use forward crumple zone sensors as they don't have the same design, they use an accelerometer located on the floor plan of the transmission tunnel, the same as above, but bullbars for these vehicle do not need specially designed crumple zone compatable bullbars, as the bar does not affect the capability of the airbag to deploy.


If you want more info I can find out from a mate who's old business card position title was - "Crash Test Dummy Technician", he worked for Autoliv. What a title
He used to conduct the crash testing for vehicles and components prior to ADR approval.

[Reel Hard]

Those crash test dummies wouldn't be able to get insurance. They are the worst drivers I have ever seen.

[Brett1907]

Charlie, The SRS Airbags only impact on the aproval of body blocks and bull bars so far as to specify the design. So long as you follow the specifications they are ok (remember my initial info said body blocks were illegal). ARB, TJM, ECB and others all make air bag compatible bull bars which comply with the ADRs. I have checked this with my insurance broker!

The new code which charlie is talking about is the same one the QT inspector told me about, it isn't in place as yet. He wasn't aware of the exact limits it will impose on tyres/mods. To the best of his knowledge, the tyre size limits will NOT change in QLD. He was pretty sure, in fact, that the national code instigates the same limits we have in QLD.

Neil, no I haven't got personalised plates yet. I'm going to get them for all my work utes eventually anyway. Thanks for the tip on how to get them at the right place.

chisel, the insurance companies do not have to prove the tyres contributed to the crash. If they are illegal then your car is unroadworthy. Part of the PDS of all insurance companies is that yopur vehicle must be well maintained and roadworthy. This can be extrapolated to mean that EVERYTHING on the car MUST comply with relevant regulations. Also, that the vehicle MUST be kept safe by proper maintenance/servicing. That is why I get ALL my utes (even the old brumby) serviced by a qualified mechanic, running a business I must provide my staff with properly maintained vehicles or I am liable if they have an accident. Also, if you have a legal modification, and they believe it may have contributed to the crash, then it is up to YOU to prove that it didn't. This has all been checked with my insurance broker.

Its the same with QT. They don't have to prove the car is illegal, you have to prove it is legal.

Now to getting tickets, and this has come fromt he mouth of a QT inspector.

Since the fitment of oversize tyres on passenger 4WD vehicles hasn't obviously contributed to road accidents and/or fatalities, this illegal modification isn't being actively targeted. Now, this doesn't mean you can put 45inch Baja muds on your car. If the tyres look OBVIOUSLY over size, or the car appears to being driven in an unsafe manner (be it as a result of driver or tyre/suspension flex) you will be pulled over and defected. I don't know the true police stance on this subject, but by speaking to a couple of friends of mine that are cops I have this to say.

If you are driving in a safe and responsible manner, and have a car that has some minor modifications that fall outside the regs (30mm increase on tyres, window tint a little darker than T35 etc) you won't get pulled over. My understanding is that the police aren't too interested in those people.

Hope that didn't upset you bootyinblue, just going by what my friends have said.

Brett

[chisel]

Well, if it is so easy for insurance companies to refuse a claim, why does it so rarely happen? Do we have some recorded cases of it happening? I have actively been monitoring a number of forums for discussions like this and have never actually heard anyone complain of having an insurance claim rejected. On the other hand I've heard of a number of claims that have been successful regardless of the unroadworthiness of the vehicle (based on the tyres).

Personally I won't take the risk - but a friend of mine (who is probably reading this) is about to fit considerably larger tyres and is interested in the discussion.

[Brett1907]

chisel, I have never heard of a claim being granted when the insurance company were aware the vehicle was illegal. Normally an insurance assessor isn't aware of the exact tyre sizes just by reading the side wall, and the manufacturers plate doesn't state the diameter of the tyre, just the same as the side walls.

Calculating the diameter from the tyre sizes on the side wall is a VERY inacurate method. That was also something that came up about tyre sizes when I spoke to the QT inspecor. You can get 4 tyres with the same side wall sizes (265/75/17) from 4 different manufacturers and the diamater will be different for all 4. This makes it extremely difficult to enforce this particlar regulation.

I have heard of vehicles having insurance claims rejected due to tyre size, I have an insurance broker for my work utes and have heard it from him. He deals with thousands of cars each year. He also has NEVER heard of an insurance company granting an insurance claim if they were AWARE of the unroadworthyness of a vehicle, it is more likely the inspector didn't check the tyres too hard.

Some vehicles out there that look legal may not be. For instance, the standard tyre fitted to a 100 series landcruiser would be illegal on a current model hilux. But if you saw the hilux driving down the street with that size tyre on you wouldn't think twice. I challenge anyone to look at a tyre and tell me just by site whether it is within the 15mm tolerance. If they say they can (& they're not HUGE muds) then they're a liar. For instance, you put a set of 17inch alloys with 32 inch tyres on a new 'lux with a 2inch suspension lift and it looks perfectly legal, even to a QT inspector. Granted he didn't look at the side wall numbers, he was more interested in knowing if they were load rated for the vehicle. They are load rated for the vehicle.

Brett

[chisel]

Yes, I agree... more likely the insurance inspector didn't notice. I doubt they'd even take a 2nd glance if the tyres were 30mm larger on an 800mm overall diameter. Unless they were much wider tyres I very much doubt the difference would get picked up by anyone, police and insurance inspectors included.

So, back to my point. Yes they might technically be illegal but ... is there cause for concern? Some clearly think not and are happy with larger tyres ... or perhaps more likely they are oblivious to the laws.

Do you have any detail on the claims that were rejected? I'm just curious to know if it was only the tyres which make the car unroadworthy, or other things.

[Charlie]

"Charlie, The SRS Airbags only impact on the aproval of body blocks and bull bars so far as to specify the design. So long as you follow the specifications they are ok (remember my initial info said body blocks were illegal). ARB, TJM, ECB and others all make air bag compatible bull bars which comply with the ADRs. I have checked this with my insurance broker!"

Fair enougth,I was told it was illegal but if the DOT are happy to sign off in writting that good.
I'm not having a go at anyone this whole thing drives me crazy you try to do the right thing and the authorties cannot even give you the right answer.
Regards Charlie

[Brett1907]

Sorry chisel, he couldn't go into specifics. But a mate of mine in the GC4WD club told me about a competition a couple of years ago. The cops/QT were parked on the road near the competition defecting spectators 4WDs on their way to the comp. He saw otherwise legal looking vehicles defected for wheels. This is not a regular occurence, but it did happen.

No sweat, no one here would think you were having a go. This is the reason other threads, then this one were started. There are a few of us on here who have been told more than a few different things by people who should know. My initial post, based on a lot of research (including QT) was wrong on a few topics. Thanks to the help by a few others I think we have just about got it right. If you want to do some mods PM some of the people who have offered to help.

Brett

[Fat Chilli]

Sorry chisel, he couldn't go into specifics. But a mate of mine in the GC4WD club told me about a competition a couple of years ago. The cops/QT were parked on the road near the competition defecting spectators 4WDs on their way to the comp. He saw otherwise legal looking vehicles defected for wheels. This is not a regular occurence, but it did happen.

This also happened at a Comp I attended last year, plenty of vehicles got defect notices.

I just wish it was one set of rules for all States, mods that are acceptable in Vic aren't in QLD and visa versa....just dumb, given that they all utilise the DOTARS, ADRs etc.

[Brett1907]

Might have been the same comp. Was it at Landcruiser Park?

Brett

[bootyinblue]

Nah... doesnt upset me at all. I often talk about failing another 'test' and that is why they end up with a fist full of tickets...

[Fat Chilli]

Nah... doesnt upset me at all. I often talk about failing another 'test' and that is why they end up with a fist full of tickets...

Booty - what was the above post in relation to?

Brett - yep, it was at cruiser.

I know I won't spend a cent on a mod unless I know for sure that it will only increase the safety and road handling of the vehicle. My life and my occupants lives are far to valuable to skip on for dodgy mods.
I say target the ricers more, they shit me and kill people all the time with their antics; e.g. in the cab on the way back from the airport tonight I saw 4 ricers dragging on the highway (near Yatla), they were constantly slowing down and speeding up against each other. They nearly caused a van to run up the back of one of them, when they cut him off . Would have reported them but couldn't read the plates.

[bootyinblue]

Refering to Post #34 from Brett.

[Sea-Dog]

Refering to Post #34 from Brett.

Hey Booty, are we talking about the "attitude test" ???

Eg. Show an attitude, and you fail the test, but win some tickets

Keep up the good work !