Can anyone tell me what type of fish this is??...caught it off Airlie Beach..released as I didnt know what it was.
Cheers
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Can anyone tell me what type of fish this is??...caught it off Airlie Beach..released as I didnt know what it was.
Cheers
Hey Mate, That is Lutjanus Bitaenatus also known as an "Indonesian Snapper". I was a fisheries officer in Airlie Beach and have seen hundreds of them. They are often confused with nanygai however have a smaller legal size of 25cm but normally stop growing around 30cm.They are usually found in the deeper holes around the Whitsunday islands in about 40 to 80 meters.They are a schooling fish so if you catch one you will usually catch heaps. They have a bag limit of 10 and are great chewing. The easyest way to identify them is canine teeth like a jack and have they have a fine white strip on the tip of there caudal fin. Hope this helps, cheers
Great reply good infoQuote:
Originally Posted by scrotty
Thats what this site should be about
Thanks
Thanks heaps Scrotty..now I know what they are and that they are good chewin, I will be keepin them next time. i caught about 12 all around 35 cm..
Cheers
No probs Jaxson, thats what i mean about when you catch one you will probably get more! It might pay to check with the Airlie fisheries guys about the size and bag limits of those because thats what it was when i worked there a few years ago. As most fisho's know the size and bag limits change constantly. I would hate to give you old regulations. The fisheries guys up there are very active and can be found in the combined marine operations base at shingley beach. That would have been a nice feed mate. Cheers and rip some lips!
My brother inlaw catches plenty of them up there. Says they are an introduced species and a pest/vermon. If this is correct why is there a bag limit on them? They never use to have any limits a few years back, as far as I know.
I have done the Fisheries Search and found no mention of the Indonesian Snapper ( Lutjanus Bitaenatus ) as being on the " Take and Possession " list for either Tidal or Offshore waters.
Fisheries Queensland does not list these specific species anywhere.
The CSIRO has identified these fish as being in Australian waters. The CSIRO has dropped these in the " Tropical Snapper " class, but QLD Fisheries has no specific mention of these fish.
There is a Commercial Marketing name for them issued by the CSIRO, " Tropical Snapper ", which as we know, covers a great deal of different species.
The Qld Fisheries " Take and Possession " schedule lists...
" All Tropical Snappers and Sea Perches " min length........ 25cm......... take & possession limit.... 5 per species.
So, we have an issue. QLD fisheries do not identifiy specifically, this species, but the CSIRO has grouped it into Tropical Snappers, which the QLD Fishery schedule has an " encompassing " title / group.
That, to me, seems a little confusing.
Maybe we need to get confirmation from an authority on this one ?
Cheers LP
Hey Ausfish, yes they are an introduced species but I can assure you that they DO have a size and bag limits. They were placed in the Tropical Snapper group. It used to be published on posters and hand outs in the Airlie Beach Fisheries office. If you call Airlie Fisheries they will happily tell you what the size and bag is. They are fairly indemic to the Whitsunday region so the local fisheries guys will know the current deal. It was my job to show people how to identify them and the size and bag limits so unless the regs have changed in the last three or four years that should still be the case! I do agree that they should not have limits as they are a noxious species but since when can anybody make sense of all fisheries regs! I worked for them and nobody could ever explain the rationality for this species to me either? There is also another fish in the same area that most people would swear is a small Barramundi ( "Lates Calcarifer) however it is not! It is a "Sand Bass" It has a maxium growth of around 47 cm. But i wont hijack the thread about that one, cheers
How do you get an " introduced species" in the ocean??
Hey Badone, its quite easy. The fish is not known to live in that area naturaly. Any fish living in an area outside of its natural range is known as Noxious. It may have been introdced intentionaly or may have arrived in Australian waters through ships dumping ballast water or any other miriad of ways. Another example would be if somebody unknowlingly bought water here from PNG containing Black Bass eggs and dumped it in the Northern Territory we would have a similar situation. Its not their natural range! Hope this helps
More often than not through bilge water transporting larvae.
I know the oceans are all connected however natural barriers prevent fish from one region getting to another. In the case of these guys which are a coastal species, the 1000's km of deep open water with no habitat (shallow reefs etc) for them would prevent them moving to other areas such as Australia.
There are many cases of introduced marine pests in Australia and other areas. Shipping bilge water is the most prolific vector.
Jeez ya gotta be quick!
Thanks. Helps heaps. Didn't know you could apply this term to the oceans other than for animals like starfish or mollusks and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrotty
Whaatt!! iTS A JUVENILE Large mouth nannygai in my book thay are caught all up the tropical coast. If i were you I would show it to fisheries as Id be fairly certain they would book you for having undersized nannigai??
Whhaat!! In my book its just a juvenile Nannygai, and I wouldnt be seen dead with one up here in Cairns, under 40cm anyway. They are all along our northern coastal reefs and wrecks. I just sent a copy of the picture to Fisheries here at Cairns. Jeez I hope all the readers of this thread stay attached as there could be some serious consequences of having a bag of them. I asked the Fisheries here if they had heard of Indonesian Snapper and he just laughed! (with me). Hold the phone on this one is my view. I will post his reply as soon as...
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrotty
I asked the Fisheries here if they had heard of Indonesian Snapper and he just laughed!
Obviously he is uninformed. As I stated, CSIRO have identified these fish and actually have a map declaring the areas they have been caught in , in Australian waters and close to the mainland.
some links:-
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/Lutj...taeniatus.html
and
http://www.marine.csiro.au/caabsearc...pcode=37346025
LP
Bit more research shows the Indonesian Snapper and its occurrences on Australian Shores (first Link below) Notice also there are no stripes on this fish!
http://bie.ala.org.au/species/Indonesian+Seaperch
This link below clearly shows the lines along the side of this juvenile Large Mouth Nannigai or Saddle Tail Sea Perch.
http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/28_9085.htm
Phil, I beg to differ based on the links I have just put up. As I said previously, this fish with the stripes on its side is endemic to all our northern inshore waters. The docs above only show the Indonesian Snapper off Western Australia. Even your link says the same. None of the pictures of the Indonesian Snapper have stripes, but there are millions of te one in the picture posted up along our coast looking exactly like it.
We better not be too hasty.
Cheers
not differing, just putting up what I found and I am making no judgements at all.
Just trying to offer info.
cheers LP
I wouldn't keep it. Because I have caught thousands of these that look identical to this and they are small nannygai I am certain of it. These definately have size limit of 400mm long. I am with Odes. These are highly prolific in that area.
Hey Odes, As i have said, This fish is often confused with Nannygai, It is Not a Nannygai! There are two distinct differences, canine teeth and the caudal tail is fringed with a white strip. Thats the problem with posting answers on a forum and what makes the job of s fisheries officer even harder. There are always fishos that think they know more than you even though you do it for a living and have been trained in fish id and taxonomy. There is no point asking fisheries in Cairns they are not caught in that area. I worked as a fisheries officer where these fish are caught and have put both species together many times to explain the differences. If you are writing out an infringement notice to somebody you need to be dam sure that you know the differences. Another classic is Parrot and tuskfish but i have seen a whole lot of rec fishers that dont know the difference.
canine teeth and the caudal tail is fringed with a white strip
by the pic it doesn't have canine teeth and you can not see the fringe on the caudal fin?
my bet is large-mouth
great to have this discussion though and it highlights the difficulties in identifying species and how hard it is to get detailed info from fisheries
cheers Murf
This is not a nanny, brother inlaw has had this same discussion with many fishos and fisheries officers. He has also confirmed that when you catch one you will catch heaps, seem to come in big schools and then go. Many people will ID it as a nanny, especially if they are not from the area as they never see them anywhere else.
They photo is not definitive! Only way to tell is a clear mouth and tail shot. If its not a Nannygai then its an Indo Snapper. People that have only caught Nannygai will say its a Nannygai, people that have caught and studied both will know better! Spot on Ausfish, thats what i am saying!
Attachment 85882Attachment 85881
Well this is interesting. I think I will have to agree with odes. Sorry scrotty. Its a juvenile Malabar Snapper Lutjanus malabaricus also known as Saddletail or Large Mouth Nannygai. Check out the dark blotch through the eye thats starting to fade out in the thread starter photo. Although i do admit that the indo snapper is very simliar. Photo isnt real good either but thanks for posting mate.
I wish there was a better photo but I am going for a Juvenile Saddle tail snapper too. You can just make out the saddle near the person's finger. I've caught my fair share of them at small sizes with that band still across the face.
Like the other ID link I am not 100% certain as a better photo would be nice. Several photos in fact.
It is a nannygai. Call it whatever you like, it clearly has black saddle under thumb and stripes. call it whatever you want, indonesian snapper do not exist on east coast. every thing I have read that has been posted here suggests it is a nannygai. pics and information information included. If fisheries are letting these be taken from the ocean they are not doing their job and they should be reported.
And we wonder why fish stocks are shrinking!!!
This is getting almost hilaroius. I tell you this fish is all the way up thru our tropical north waters. And 2 of the website links put up by Lucky Phil and I decscribe the occurence of Indonesian Snapper in Ausralian waters as in the far noth west of Western Australia.! The fish in the pic provided is thick up along the north Qld Coast. If iIndo Snapper occurrence was here as well, Im sure it would be shown and noted. Also those pics of the Indonesian Snapper, have adiffernt shaped head that the fish in the pic. Im sorry Scrotty but that particular fish in the pic is caught up here all the time. off Cairns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrotty
Couple of pics of these caught at Hinchinbrook The 3rd pic is a rotated version of the original pic that started the thread.Attachment 85894Attachment 85895
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/misc/pencil.png
Just to clarify my post, Saddletail Snapper = Large Mouth Nannygai. Fisheries just use the Snapper nomenclature now. Due to the poor pic I'm not 100% certain but if I had to choose between the two I would say Nanny.
Juvenile saddle tail here everywhere . Specially around the shallow wreaks and shallow reef structures in cap coast .
http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/28_8995.htm
Jt
Yep really good info, glad they have fisheries officers heyQuote:
Originally Posted by banksmister
Below is an email return I've had so far from Fisheries Cairns. I'm sending him the google search web sites put up on here indicating the occurrence of Indo Snapper only in north Western Australia. It would be strange for CSIRO to get this wrong? Like if they are on the east coast and as supposedly common, how come no recorded occurrence there?
Hi John
I have attached a photo of the juvenile large mouth, notice the similiarities of the striping and band on the head. I can't see the band on the tail tho, but it could very well be this fish. I have googled the Indonesian snapper (which will have a min size of 25cm) and the photos I have seen don't show the striping along the fish but that is not conclusive.
If you have any more photos of the whole fish I may be able to do a better scientific analysis.
I will contact our research section to see if they have any better photos than on the internet, as well.
Sorry for the late reply as I have been away. Until then, I would err on the side of caution and consider those fish to be a large mouth (40cm min size) in the interim. Cheers.
Darren Soda
Field Officer
Queensland Boating and Fisheries Patrol
Fisheries Queensland / Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
Ph 07 40350700 Fax 07 40351603 Mob 0417735991
100-106 Tingira Street Portsmith
PO Box 7453 Cairns 4870
Business Information Centre 13 25 23
www.daff.qld.gov.au
I know this is an old thread but this post might "bump it" and shed new light on something about to become topical again as these "noxious" fish are spreading like wildfire in the Whitsundays. A better image will follow of the fish that does not really exist and yet is protected by a 5 fish bag limit...what next, a bag limit on carp or tilapia? Will also follow this post with a bit of background and I will post some photos of the fish when I figure out how.
Indonesian Invasion
Indonesian Snapper,( lutjanus bitaeniatus). CSIRO and various official web information have this fish native to areas off Sumatra and Sulawesi with a small population off Kuri Bay in WA and a few pockets north off Darwin. It is not native to Qld. So,what’s the news in this? It is the fact that these fish are virtually infesting most of the southern Whitsunday region in massive numbers, dominating many of the recognised rubble grounds to a point where you can’t get a bait to the bottom to target Reds as double hook-ups on these fish are almost instant. The issue with these fish is they are small, reaching a max of around 40 cm, but usually caught in the 25 to 35cm range, they are great to eat, but, have been caught up in fisheries regulations as a lutjanid species under a broad definition of“tropical snappers” with a subsequent bag limit of 5 fish. The available scientific literature is of a fish with frightening fast population growth,(unusual in a Lutjanid species which are mostly very slow growing) identifying a doubling of population in LESS THAN 15 MONTHS. Despite a head in the sand attitude from Qld fisheries senior management, who prefer to doubt the existence of these fish, they are here,they are quickly getting out of control and they are being protected by a bag limit. What next, a bag limit on Tilapia or carp? This species is, according to the CSIRO literature, a fish found solitary or in small schools and inhabits waters from 40 to 60 meters. WRONG. It is present in massive schools, almost blacking out sounders and in waters from 5 to 80 meters. Qld Fisheries excuse for maintaining a bag limit is that these are too hard to easily identify from other “tropical snappers”, particularly large mouth nannygai. WRONG again, and typical of professional bureaucrats who may be great at writing rules but knownothing about fish and fishing. The difference is very obvious. No saddle near tail, black tail and white tipped caudal fin. What is it with these guys? Here you have a species which would be a desirable recreational species, if you could catch enough to generate a decent feed, have little or no commercial value, or interest, and are breeding and spreading distribution at alarming rates and clearly displacing native species.
First formally identified in the Whitsundays in 1994 by a single specimen sent to the WA and again in 2010 by JCU marine researchers, it has become apparent to Whitsunday fishos that the last few years they have exploded in population. Historically restricted to a few pockets around Long Island they were a popular local target, with no bag limit and an easy feed. The 5 fish bag limit, coupled with 2 monster wets over the last 2 years seem to have combined to cause a population explosion, akin to what the literature indicates which provides for a doubling of population every 15 months (or less) and the fish are now showing up everywhere. How long before these things dominate the entire Great Barrier Reef? Recreational fishers are about the only possible means to slow these things down, even if only while the boffins come to terms with what to do. Not only is this cost free to Government, it could even add value to fishing tourism and the diet/lifestyle of locals and visitors alike as a great, easy, bread and butter fishery.But, typical of bureaucracy, Qld Fisheries Management is holding the line that these things don’t really exist, or are not really a problem. I have personally had direct contact with the Minister’s office, GBRMPA, boating and fisheries and fisheries field and research operators, the vast majority of whom agree this should be an open fishery and actively encouraged. If Qld fisheries management continue with their head in the sand approach and continue to protect these fish there is a very real threat to the biodiversity of fishstock on the GBR.A recent sounding in an inshore local green zone confirmed an obvious expectation. The purported rational for green zones was to protect biodiversity and fish stocks. This particular area, where I risked a heavy fine by dropping down a bait to confirm identity of the huge schools showing on the sounder, is wall to wall Indo’s.And it is just the tip of a very large, fast growing iceberg. We have been told to trust the new LNP Government would remove stupid green tape and regulations which either do not make sense, or, in this case, appear plain straight outdumb.
The major rational, as relayed by senior fisheries managers to the Ministers office is this. “The fish (if they really exist, or exist innumbers) are too hard to identify from other lutjanid/tropical snappers so anglers will be encouraged to exceed bag limits on tropical snapper species if an open fishery was declared on Indonesian Snapper.” With respect, what a loadof crap!.
Below is the photo and here are the “Lutjanids/ tropicalsnappers” targeted by recreational anglers.
Large Mouth Nannygai (Saddle Tail Sea Perch/snapper)
Small Mouth Nannygai (Crimson Snapper)
Fingermark (Golden Snapper)
Red Emperor
Mangrove Jack
Spanish Flag (Stripy Bass/ Stripy)( Lesser degree by catch)
Moses Perch ( Lesser degree by catch)
Hussar ( Lesser degree by catch)
Note attached a clear high res image (and attachment) for clearidentification.
1.This is about as big as they get and YES, itlooks a bit like ajuvenile Large Mouth Nannygai (Saddle Tail Sea Perch) but little at all like ajuvenile small mouth Nannygai(Crimson Snapper)…………It looks NOTHING like anyother Lutjanid
2.Underslung Lower Jaw (Saddle tail is prominentlower jaw) and jack like canine teeth.
3.Note no “Saddle” markings at the upper base ofthe tail.
4.Black tail (saddle Tail have clear to pink)
5.The easy to spot “smoking gun” White tips on thecaudal fin ,(zoom in where fin tips extend on fingers) hence a common name ofwhite tip snapper.
6.While I would say anyone can see the difference,clearly senior fisheries managers are not just your average “anyone”. What’sold saying? If you build something idiot proof, they just build a better idiot.
trying to upload a more pics but having some griefAttachment 104744
Is this all a result of ships picking up water as ballast in other ports and dumping it in our ports with which invasive species can be introduced via viable eggs or even live fish. I wonder where it will all end, globalization may mean something different to what it was originally coined as.
KC, thanks for the info. But I think the photo you posted is not the same species as the original posters photo. Two separate species. The original posters photo is a juvenile nanny. I'm not saying the fish you posted is not what you say but it's not what this thread was originally asking.
Hi Si,
the photo originally posted is IMO and Indo. They are darker when they are small, and or caught in shallow water, I would even venture the guy caught that fish at Funnel Bay or Shute harbour in relatively shallow water. I am going to post some more pics which will open a few eyes as to how prolific and IMO potentially dangerous these things are and how wrong the supposed science is. Science which says these things hang out as solitary or in small schools and in 40 to 80 meters of water. Where, from my observation the thing they have got right is the frighteningly fast growth and reproduction rates. I have a few drams posting images but will head each one with a bit of a description.
Attachment 104888Attachment 104888About as big as they getAttachment 104889Attachment 104889Attachment 104889same size fish with different colours. both came from 310 foot of water
Attachment 104890Attachment 104891 The blue "fuzz" below the school of Macks from 120 foot down is all indos, then out into 310 foot of water just masses of themAttachment 104892