We all have our individual opinions on matters and so long as we voice if we wish but dont try impose on others is what matters :).
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We all have our individual opinions on matters and so long as we voice if we wish but dont try impose on others is what matters :).
Here's some prices from a local Brisbane seafood retailer.Quote:
Originally Posted by NAGG
Cooked whole WA lobster $70/kg
Whole green tropical lobster $65/kg
Raw lobster tail large $99/kg, medium $95/kg
I tried posting a pic of their prices but it wouldn't let me do it from my phone.
The photo app method relies on honesty, and it can't be assumed that it would be any more accurate than surveys backed by statistical techniques. Plus, there is no way of accurately knowing the absolute stock size either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
Actually - our local at Penrith is horrendously expensive .Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelm
I actually like going to the markets because you have a choice of 6 or 7 retailers ......... so rather than picking from 3 or 4 whole atlantic salmon locally - I can probably pick from 50 (size , quality)
Ditto for prawns , scallops oysters ,...... & anything else - the choice is so much greater.
as much as anything - I do this with family at some ungodly hour ...... have a good coffee there plus at that time - We beat the crowds
Chris
The photo app method would be almost identical to the commercial catch records. Only it would all be done via your phone and taking a photo on a brag mat or similar could estimate the size of each fish harvested. When stock assessments are done there are no huge assumptions made on take for commercial. But a huge amount of assumptions on take take for recs.Quote:
Originally Posted by billfisher
Like I said that relies on the honesty of anglers. Also it is far easier to keep tabs on 1,000 or so pros than a million or so rec anglers. Some larger pro vessels have cameras installed so everything they do is recorded. Audits are done to check the accuracy of reporting. Trigger points are enacted if non-compliance reaches a certain level. I would be a huge job (expensive) to collate all that data from the app and it may not be any more accurate than surveys. Money might be better spent on more regular and more rigorous surveys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
There are plenty of software systems out there that would automatically collate that data and could do it on a daily basis. It could do it on a minute by minute basis provided the mobile phone was in range at the time they hit the 'enter' button on every fish they took a photo of. The same app could upload all of a trip's data once it reaches 4G reception for those fishing far offshore. Start it with a species of concern, say snapper, then get the testing done to iron out any kinks. Later start to add all of the other species that are under heavy concern. Policing is no different to now. Get caught with fish on board but not uploaded into the app and you cop a fine. Same thing with commercial fishermen now with their logbooks.Quote:
Originally Posted by billfisher
I work with a guy that built a software system far more complex than this in less than 2 months. If you start this on a single species and add more down the track it could be up and running in less than 3 months.
Getting the software/app running would be simple (as mentioned) the issue is and always will be compliance, there’s just not enough Fisheries guys to police it, and most rec fishers are simply too paranoid to supply catch data.
I'm not intending to "flame somebody ". Haven't heard that term.
But I'm sick of losing our God given freedoms, and having to look over one's shoulder increasingly.
Maybe i have too much faith in most people doing the right thing, and don't need to be treated as a criminal.
Food for thought people, go watch the movie 1984.
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I’m usually in the same boat as you Docaster. But I’m coming at this from a different angle. We are having our freedoms eroded in his space on a regular basis, based on the back of complete bumpkin data. Huge assumptions are being made about how much Recs take and then extrapolated using dubious methods. I think on the whole, the vast majority of people want to do the right thing. If they’re sensitised well enough with media campaigns as to the end game of this I think over time the Rec catch data would become robust. Right now the freedoms are being taken away on the back of mathematics models not solid data.
look back at the earlier RRFF review on Snapper. They used the same model across all three sectors (commercial/charter/recreational). When the models from Recs and commercial data showed the stock was stable, they simply labeled the results as “hyper-stable” meaning the data was showing stability but the stock was really in decline, then changed the model they used to calculate the recreational take. Bang the new maths model showed the stock was in decline. If they had a comprehensive full take from “the biggest sector” they couldn’t make all these assumptions on the recreational take. They’d have to use hard data like they do for commercials.
it’s then and only then that we can then argue the assumptions made in the models they use. It’s then that we can ask for rock solid indicators of stock increases based on imperial evidence and not assumptions. Assumptions BTW that always use the “precautionary principle”.
If built well. The app could be used as a personal fishing log to look back on over time. So while the basic data that is sent to the server may only require a few data points like date+length of each fish+region (say Gold Coast+Moreton bay inshore+Brisbane offshore+Sunshine Coast+Fraser coast+Fraser coast north). The app could be build in a way where the more specific data could be retained in a personal fishing log book if the user wanted it to. Things like time off day, tide, moon, depth, barometric pressures etc etc
Oh course I want real data. Brag mats are NOT good enough for legal measuring of fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
No matter if we get app reporting, phone survey's, boat ramp surveys, the sticking point is the virgin bio-mass.
Ya'll know my feelings on this............ Artificial reefs, Wild Stocking and Green Zone rotation are a must, if we / fisheries are to make any headway into the sustainably of any fishery.
All I am saying is that Fisheries management will continue to look at ways to keep their jobs but will never adopt a method of management that will work in improving the fishery, simply because they are hamstrung by politics.
LP
There’s good reason for that. Nothing good comes right now from supplying catch data. I certainly won’t supply it myself right now because I know how it is used. That said if the catch data is comprehensive like mentioned above I’m all for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelm
The reason why we are losing our god given freedoms is because as human we ae very good at using & abusing what we have . If there was no oversight / regulations ...... we wouldn't have any fish to catch . We are greedy gluttons taking everything that we can ........ For me it's easy to understand why we are losing these "god given freedoms" .Quote:
Originally Posted by docaster
Chris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hka...ndex=35&t=135s
Just one lot who arent Rec Fishos. One can guess at the numbers.
I don’t quite grasp why data now is different to “comprehensive” data later. That said, I know first hand how data can be used, been on all sides of that many times, it can be manipulated to suit a purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
the brag mat comment was purely as a reference guide for the app to estimate the length of each fish recorded so that standard length v weight calculations could be done to estimate the total take. It would also give solid data on the length/age/size of he average fish as the last set of restrictions weren’t because of sustainability or fear of a collapse but because the stock was “growth overfished”. Ie the stock average size was too small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky_Phill
This app could be built cheap cheap. Done correctly it could be used as a much faster way for commercial and charter fishos to record their catches as well.
I don’t think anyone has an issue with basic regulations on fishing provided they are informed and done in the right spirt. Everyone now days understands the need for fisheries management and I’d argue those that continue to do the wrong thing are in a rare minority. In spite our history of bush rangers and rebels Australians are a super compliant population and those that abide by the rules get pretty angry when the see others flaunting them.Quote:
Originally Posted by NAGG
That said, I think your line of thinking is ingrained within fisheries management culture. While it’s never said in a stock assessment or similar paper, the conclusions/assumptions made sometimes point to that being a unwritten factor. I think this is the wrong approach from a policy standpoint and we should all want the science behind such decisions to be robust as possible. Right now we are far from that.
because right now the data for (let me stick to snapper for the sake of argument) uses mathematical models to come up with how much snapper we take. A few boat ramp surveys get extrapolated to form the entire catch for say 2012, they make assumptions in how they extrapolate that data, and tell us Recs are taking 75% of the snapper. Then in 2018 when they want to do another stock assessment they take the 2012 numbers and add a % based off the increase in boat registrations and assume the Rec take has gone up by that amount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelm
If everyone was required to use an app where it takes under a minute to set your app up for a days fishing as you’re heading out, and then 15 seconds on your phone as you boat a fish you intend to put in the esky to record it as taken from the biomass. Then when they do the stock assessment they don’t have to make assumptions on the Rec take. They don’t have to extrapolate based off a sample of boat ramp surveys. The total catch will be a known quantity the same as commercial and charter data. We will know exactly what the take is.
There’s also no reason why there can’t be transparency with the raw data. Sure you take individual identifiers away from the data base. But anyone doing a review of a stock assessment would have to have access to the data. When reviews happen, all stake holders would have to get access to that data. When/if super weird data points show up in the raw data it can be questioned.
At days end it would be far cheaper for Rec Fishos to buy their Fish without All the Kakka that goes with it and one would propably end up with more Fish at hand too.
Know thats not what its all about but neither is all the Bullshyte either.
Amen to that for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvo
Not about a fish supper though (which is fortunate as I'd starve if it was).
More about being out there...like one kills so one may hunt, not hunts so one may kill.
Sorry, probably really off the topic.
I prefer the "Brave New World" model to the 1984 one, but either way, we are going to be more regulated, not less.
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Chris , I cant believe you are that naive & believe this . How often does the term "share farmers" appear on this site . I'd like a dollar for every time someone has raised this topic online or in people that I know. If raiding peoples pots / traps (theft) is so rampant in pretty well every location , you'd have to imagine what other rules & regulations are likely to be broken ?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
Even in my own circle of friends / fishing acquaintances - I'm absolutely gobsmaked at how many admit they break the laws (or have) examples vary from minor to major & some pretty serious ones thrown in . I reckon it's most have , do or will. Some examples incl - How they mark or hide their own pots , use of set lines , fish out of season ( because they wont get caught) , keep fish out of season , fish with the wrong gear (bait) , use illegal traps , kept protected species , dont have a SIP when in Qld , exceed bag or slot limits & sell fish . ....... 2 blokes even considered (back in the day) that they fished professionally - because they would target a fish & sell them . Were they licenced ? No.
If you have the conversation or you listen to what people do or have done, you will realise just how willing people are or what lengths they will go to to bypass the current rules & regulations .......
If my fishing acquaintances are representative of the wider fishing community ....... what hope is there ?
Chris
& yet it's a common argument that people want to justify their need to fill an esky because of what it costs them to go for a fish . Plenty of fishoes are about filling their freezerQuote:
Originally Posted by Volvo
Chris
I fully agree with your post on people doing the wrong thing, it’s rampant country wide. In a vague kind of way, even doing things legally can see us take way more than we actually “need”. I consider myself a pretty good crabber, and our bag limit is 10 each, I usually crab with my wife and/or my grandson, now and then, there might be a fourth visitor, that gives us 40 crabs, which during the summer, is easy for me, do we really “need” 40 crabs? Sometimes, maybe yes, other times definitely not, this week I will get our bag limit for Christmas lunch, but other times the bag limit is way too many. Now let’s be perfectly clear, I am not some kind of green tree hugger, and will take what I need (legally) but my point is, sometimes the bag limit is too much, other times it might not be enough! Multiply that 10 crab limit by literally hundreds of crabbers during the summer months, then add the “poachers” and the catch number must be astronomical, but as it stands, no one knows (except the pro catch number) I know I have kind of gone in circles, but it points out how difficult it is to manage rec fishery numbers, then add the paranoid fisher who will never comply with catch numbers and it all becomes a twisted fuzzy grey area, with “experts” simply stabbing in the dark on a “best guess” I would love to see the rec catch more accurately represented, and then some real science applied to protect what’s left, and we haven’t even touched on how one area is completely different to another for the same species. The only constant is….”something” has to be done, and I think it’s going to hurt in the short term.Quote:
Originally Posted by NAGG
100%Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelm
Bag limits vs requirements ..... good point
Here is one for you - In my 40 odd years of fishing I can honestly (hand on heart) say I have never heard anyone else say " We have enough fish / crab "
Fishing sessions have come to an end for mainly
Time
The missus
Weather
Ran out of bait
No fish
Injury / sickness
Breakdown
Work
Bag limits reached ( usually doesn't stop you from fishing though)
No more esky space
Tides
There are probably a few more.
I wonder how others see this ?
When the mackerel or Tuna are on ...... boats will go out day after day chasing these fish & it's not catch & release for sport.
Chris
I find all these accusations hard to believe. Why would people jeopardise losing their boats and gear over a few fish? Fisheries are regularly checking catches at the boat ramp.
Seems to me typical human behavior, blame others because they don't catch anything.
And if an app is introduced.
"People aren't reporting all their catch ". "Ok, the app has to have location on because we know fish are at x spot and he didn't report anything".
Next, "mandatory cameras like the pros, we know the public are lying thieving bastards"
"We need to do raids on their freezers"
What i believe is fishermen traditionally brag about the catch, hence all the photos with the fish shoved at the lens showing the size 3 times bigger then it is.
Up in the north the weather limits the access to the reef for rec fishers.
I trust the majority if rec fishers over the majority of "public SERVANTS" who have to follow the agenda of the UN.
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What i do believe though is those that keep fishing and will then throw out smaller fish, replacing with a bigger fish if caught. And very few will spend 10 mins over the side trying to revive the undersized catch so it doesn't become lunch for the sea eagles.
That in itself is a huge waste of resources, same as trawler bycatches which have to be thrown out.
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Gee mate - take off those rose coloured glasses & just do a google search "Fisheries confiscated boat"Quote:
Originally Posted by docaster
Check this out
Fisheries compliance enforcement (nsw.gov.au)
You can see just how much gear was confiscated & plenty of other stuff
This is from that NSW fisheries website .
Fisheries compliance enforcement
Client Contacts and Enforcement: All Fishery Programs (2021-22)
- Around 37,000 client contacts were made (where powers were exercised / not including surveillance).
- The detection of 5511 offences resulting in:
- The issue of 2904 written warnings
- The issue of 2092 penalty notices totalling $719,780 in value.
- The commencement of 212 prosecution actions
- 303 other outcomes such as verbal cautions and stop work orders
- 224 offences were successfully prosecuted, including:
- 143 court imposed fines totalling $155,950 in value
- 13 community correction orders
- 19 Conditional Release orders
The very fact this has gone for 4 pages (so far) indicates how hard the whole thing is! What works for (say) FNQ is not relevant for SE QLD……and so it goes. I am not for one minute suggesting I just “stop fishing” if I get my bag limit, but as far as crabbing goes, I know I can get a feed any day I like, so limits are not an issue for me, many times my wife and I have gone out and only taken home 8 crabs (upgrading to the biggest) because on that particular day, that’s what we need. Now, crabbing for me is easy and cheap, I live minutes from the ramp, and use at best $5 worth of fuel, conversely, a day out “deep dropping” for Blue Eye, is a full, day, bags of ice, expensive gear, food, 60+ litres of fuel for a boat limit of a couple of fish! Now that to me is not economical, but I like eating them, would I keep more if I could? you bet! It’s not a one size fits all thing, but at least discussions like this expose people to the ups and downs of others views, and possible compromise.
Holy crap, my apologies. Bunch of criminals out there lol. Sad state of affairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NAGG
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I have pretty strong views on this kind of stuff & it's not ideological (not a greenie) . I have no issues with people taking a feed but do when it becomes harvesting.
When you look back at some of the old photo's you can easily imagine how good these fisheries were . Today none of these fisheries are as good as they were & most are just a shadow of the past . We decimated fish stocks based on our selfishness & greed.
So being pragmatic I can see why we need such measures , oversight & regulation.
I'm curious to see what becomes of the Bluefin Tuna fishery here in NSW now that they appear to have made a return - I see the effort to target these runs have increased significantly in recent years - Yes we now have a bag limit of 1 & a possession limit of 1 ....... but we dont have a boat limit - that nuts when you could see a father & sons / daughters all take a fish of 60kg plus for the one household - do you need that much Tuna & how much will be wasted ?. ...... just sayin
Chris
id suggest you find some better fishing acquaintances. No one in my circles acts like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by NAGG
Mate - just providing you with some facts & figures ....... Yes there are people who are willing to lose their boats & gearQuote:
Originally Posted by docaster
Considering only about 4% of fishoes get checked in NSW ...... the chance of getting away with it is quite high .
Chris
That you know of !Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
Mate you will be surprised at what you learn about others once you get to know them .
Are you going to tell me that no one has kept fish that were undersized - or set a trap (deliberately) not conforming to regulations , exceeded bag / slot limits ? .
That would be akin to trying to say that no one in your circle has drove a car over the drink drive limits.
Maybe it's because the people I know are being open & honest (or dropped the cat)....... The reality is more like that most of us have broken the law at one time or another inadvertently or deliberately.
Chris
I think some of these things are very area specific, where I am, in decades of fishing, I have only ever been checked by fisheries a handful of times, why? simply because of the number of ramps, people and the number of fisheries inspectors, the numbers are in your favour! I have seen countless times people taking way over their set bag limit of Flathead and Kingfish, including undersized fish, people using more traps than legal, using gear in illegal places, should I “Dob them in” maybe yes, maybe I should mind my own business, then, in a way, it is my business…..I personally know a few who sell stuff on the side to pay for boating expenses, should I say something? We need to look at this as a long game, not just for today. Fisheries seem to be more concerned about the high value market, Abalone, Lobster and Snapper to a lesser degree, everything else is just bonus if they raid someone at the ramp or out fishing. One things certain though, the rec catch overall is enormous, we can all say ban the pros and stuff like that, but, our take is considerable when taken as a whole, counting it is the issue, as this thread has proven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
Quote:
Originally Posted by docaster
This was insane, I've never seen sharks like that before, and buggered if it would be me in the water with them the way they were in a frenzy.
I read this & nod my head ......... like you - I dont want to be a crusader .Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelm
I've kicked a blokes bucket of undersized bream off Windang bridge when I lived down there ........ then had a knife pulled on me.
One thing I will say .... "not in my boat" I've made people release fish that they wanted to keep . I've been in a situation were I've caught a decent something & released it because I couldn't identify it . ...... I don't want the hassle or worst.
The Windang bridge situation can be observed at any jetty or fishing spot around this country ....... people keeping undersized fish . How many times do you hear the term "Yellow raincoat brigade " ?
Chris
I hear you loud and clear on the bucket of undersized fish component, it happens everywhere. Right now we have an “issue” with Cockles in Lake Illawarra, there’s million of them, but…….car loads of people turn up, take hundreds of kilos of them and piss if before anything can be done, a few locals have confronted them, tossed buckets into the water, but, it’s never ending, until it’s too late. There is very clear bag limits on them, but that is completely ignored. The fisheries office is about a K from there, but, repeated calls get nowhere, by the time they turn up, it’s all over, how do you fix that? No amount of catch data, laws, bag limits will help. I know it’s a small issue, but, it’s a cog in a big wheel. Most of us do the right thing (well most on here) but (in my opinion) we are the minority by a big margin. Way back in the “old days” I have caught more fish in a session than I would ever need, why? Don’t know, it’s just what we did, you filled the boat, then decided what the hell are we going to do with (say) 20+ 15KG Kingfish, it’s not boasting, because everyone did it….not to mention club fishing comps where every fish was worth points, luckily, those days are long gone for most, but, it all ties in with what we have today
Maybe I just run in different circles to you. On my boat and on my mates that I've fished we've regularly emptied eskies to count fish after a lost count on mixed species to make sure we haven't broken our bag limit. You say you have strong feelings about this, but did you call fisheries and inform them of your mates that were openly bragging about selling fish? It's easy to get online and have a whinge, its also easy to pick and chose who you fish with but are you willing to call them out and or inform the authorities?Quote:
Originally Posted by NAGG
The worst part is to drag a conversation away from getting comprehensive data on the rec take on the back of a few people doing the wrong thing. I am sure that there's the odd commercial fisherman that do the wrong thing too and we occasionally hear about it. But we don't make arguments against Commercial and Charter log books on the back of a possibility that a few rogue operators are going to fudge their logbook figures or not report at all. Fisheries are happy to call the Charter/Commercial log book data as robust. Why can't we get to a place where we can do the same about the rec sector?
Yes this would be an inconvenience and it's one that I wish wasn't necessary. But if It means that I am not subjected to an unnecessary additional closure. If it means I am not subjected to an unnecessary increase in size limit or reduction in bag limit on a particular species, I am more than happy to have that minor inconvenience over the much larger restriction on my fishing freedoms. Do we not remember a while back the reduction in bag limit on Mahi Mahi off the back of zero science? It was purely done because someone in the bureaucracy felt that taking this many was too greedy.It was quickly reversed once it was highlighted that there was zero science backing the decision.
Like it or not, the mandate of fisheries is to maximise the sustainable yield. Not to decide on what is moral or what is greedy. I have my own self imposed MLS on a number of species. I will also self limit on a number of species. i.e Kingfish I will usually only take one fish because I only like kings as sashimi and don't much like it cooked. But I wouldn't begrudge another person if they wanted to take 2. As long as it is sustainable and they aren't breaking the rules, I have no problem with it.
It is purely anecdotal and maybe the illegal practices in the Rec sector really are worse than I think. But I am confident there is a shed load more mortality now from sharkings than there is from illegally kept fish. Especially if you were to compare it to 10-20-30 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corry
I would certainly like to see more sharks taken from the Commercial sector. I am not sure that relaxing the regulations on recreational would have much impact because pretty generally we don't want to mess around blunting knives on shark. But on the rare occasion I buy fish and chips from a take away, I am more than happy to order flake. It would be super cheap too. A lot of people struggling at the moment could do with a cheaper option that is in abundance and available fresh locally.
Was also my thoughts exactly....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovey80
Edited the rest due to my mum telling if I had nothing nice to say then say nothing at all..