Live Fibre Debate

[dfox]

IL probably start an issue over this but i feel it needs to be said, before going on il state that i personally own some 6 to 7 live fibre rods and have used many more for a long time. Im an extremly keen fisho and i like using the top equipment and although many would have you believe these range of rods are superior to most available i think a few key issues should be raised.im an offshore fiherman so the range im refering to are mainly the jig sticks and spin versions but many issues may apply to the entire range.Ive pushed these rods too and beyond there desired working ranges and found fundermental flaws in them. The first matter is the acual blanks which id say on a whole are verry creditable although the jig stick may tend to be a little light in the tip.The guides used although simular to the quality fuji gear are a cheep immatation and tend to break and bugger up accordinly as does the replica tip!In a high priced rod id expect the best. The binding on the rods is relatively straight forward in that its under bound in metalic and a single over bind. Ive demolished all these bindings in a single session on large reds and chinamen, at first glance the rods appeared unscathed but on closer inspection the resons had cracked the bindings loosened and you could move the guides.The real seat is strong enough but ive found shimano reals (tld) dont tighten up in the seat as strong as should be, grinding it out is the solution although this would be difficult to do. the rod grips could be better shaped but thats a personal choice.These new versions the texalium range still use these in ferior fittings and for the asking prices id expect better! Unless some knollegable person corrects me the blanks appear to be pretty much the same with one layer of carbon fibre in a fancy chris-cross patern which does vertially nothing. Now dont get me wrong i didnt purchase so many live fibres because there crap, far from it. As a general purpose rod they do the job, but if your a keen angler and want the best go custom and use the best components available. im not promoting anything but price around and see the price differences of these products all are locally made! The custom rods i use are cheeper then texaliums are all fuji gear underbound double overbound multipal layered reson. Everything set up to suit me and i have change! I push these rods real hard and they hold together, anyone thats fished with me and tried the differences is converted, i used these rods commercially but there even better in a rec situation.Have a go at me if you wont but i bet i can prove my argument....your thoughts ..foxy

[Willo]

Yeah dfox
I too own 4 Live fibre's,and had the same problem with the inferior fittings and guides.Used to love em until I started using custom Rods and could compare the differece in actions under load,Now have replaced all live fibres with Custom rods.
Plus at the moment there seems to be a lot of Live Fibre market seconds around being sold cheap which isn't helping there name at all

But Live Fibres may still be one of the better OFFTHE RACK rods around

[philip_thomson]

thanks for posting this foxy. before reading this i was going to buy a live fibre 10-15kg for my TLD 20 but now i have no i dear as to what i wont. i would hate to be out chasing some nice fish and have the rod fail.

cheers phil

[Reefmaster]

Foxy
i have used many rods and i must say for an off the shelf rod the live fibre are a top rod. I have had mine for over 4 years and given it a total flogging. After a fight with a massive shark my rod now has a constant bend in it ::) I have spoken to a wilson rep who tells me he has never seen this. Usaully the rod would have to fracture to leave a bend in the rod. That was a the start of the year and the amount of big fish i have caught since hasn't made it worse or break. I have used a sabre 5"6 and it was super light and had plenty of power and would have no worries about purchasing one in the near future.

The Texaluim Is actaully made different to normal live fibres. It has a different wrap which is made from a alloy material. Its hard to explain but picture a strand of alloy that when bent rebounds back to its original figure/shape. This is whats used hence the name "Texalium". These rods are suppose to far better then the standard live fibre and are selling like hot cakes to light game guys mainly down south at the moment. I will be purchasing one in a few days and i hope i can give a good report on this rod.

In saying this i think that the live fibre rods are really talked up and there are a stack load of rods that perform the same or if not better. Those rods are not mass produced and the amount of people using them compared to live fibres must be 1 out of 10. Because of this the live fibre gets alot more talk and praise which soon amounts to large sales and everyone bragging about them. Dont get me wrong there a great rod but just give another rod a go and you may be really happy with it aswell.

Cheers Greg

[Thunderbird]

Hi foxy i thaught the same thing!
Just got the new texalium this week.
I personly love a shaped grip, not the tree trunk that they use!
And plastic reel clamp and gimble! well maybe there is a weight thing, but like you say for the money you'd expect ally!
Guides, Well i've had my fair share of troubles with expensive ones. They have shattered on me in the past! (mainly the tip)
but to reduce friction (without using roller) you have to use something hard, and that's the gamble you take i spose.
As for performance well i can't comment, havn't been able to wet a line yet :'(
I've gone the other way i've always had custom rods and i enjoy making them, only time will tell what will outlast what, my money is on the one's i've made.

[banshee]

I'd like to say I've had experience with them but the fact is after having three or four rods sent back and forth I couldn't find one that was made up to what I thought was an acceptable standard for the money,they even had the hide to tell me if I wanted one built properly I'd have to get one of their custom jobs.

[Black_Rat]

Doh #[smiley=disappointed.gif]
I've got one on lay - buy at that Mart. Not that it will deter me, they have a reputation and so did my Ugly Stik I bought 2 years ago. In that time it has had two of the ceramic rings dislodge out of the guide. So i guess it is suck it and see what you get, inevitably your first experience with a new peice of fishing equipment (be cheap or expensive) will determine whether you buy again. To a lesser extend it will come down to how often you use it. Any fishing gear under a flogging or constant use will show wear and tear form time to time.
Yes it will put aside the men from the boys, but IMO in using any of the gear you've got will be in relation to the amount of times you use it or look after it.
What am I trying to say #??? It's horeses for courses try it & if it does't suit look elsewhere.
Damo.

Ps: I don't own a tackle shop. #;D
THEY WILL SEND YOU BROKE ;D

[Sportfish_5]

I was looking at a 10-15kg overhead Texalium last week and am sure it had Fuji guides and rod seat #??? That price tag still scares me a bit though.

Sure there are better custom rods around but I cant really bag the Live Fibres but I only have 1 overhead. The live fibre spin rods I have meet my requirements. I think they are pretty good value for money for the avg fisho and if you look after them they will last a lifetime but you do have to watch what you are buying as I reckon that a few seconds make it out for sale at places like the mart without stating thats what they are.

[Volvo]

:)dfox, its not the Rod(blank) at fault here mate but the fella who put it together..
Livefibres are a top Rod(blank) and sometimes if one buys off the shelf rather than a custom built setup one may have to expect the odd failure or two..My first live fibre was a 4-6kilo outfit off the shelf and lasted maybe three outings before it come apart at the tip..
Took it back , had it replaced, stripped all the guides off and replaced with an extra one up near the area the rod let go and still have that rod working perfect today :).
Put together a 10/15kilo stick for bottom bashing and apart from a more finer n sensative tip it works just nicely for me especailly chasin Reds as has that added bit of sensativety when they are a tad shy...
For your purpose which i gather you may have used the Rod on more a regular basis than the average joe blo due to your commercial experience ide say , yes!! it woulda needed better guides and better binding ..Maybe get it custom built if you cant do the job yourself..
If i was to be using a Rod full on akin to some of your Photos you posted ide be thinking of maybe a Blank from the Pac Comp shelf or maybe a bit of modification to the tip area of the LIve Fobre :)..
Could go on but think it would be a tad boring for some lol..
Need any mor info , glad to help..
Cheers

[Black_Rat]

[quote author=Sportfish_5 link=board=Tackle;num=1097229043;start=0#7 date=10/08/04 at 20:21:25]I was looking at a 10-15kg overhead Texalium last week and am sure it had Fuji guides and rod seat #??? That price tag still scares me a bit though.

[Black_Rat]

Scary it was at least $100 more for the pretty mettalic weaving, over & extra to the overhead 15 - 24 kg model I've got on lay - buy.
Looks good but performance is yet to be established IMO :-[

[philip_thomson]

hmm now i am even more confused. i went from going for a live fibre to not wanting a life fibre to now having no idea as to what rod to put my TLD 20 on. any help would be much appreciated. (i can;t spend any more than about $225)

cheers phil

[SeaSaw]

Foxy,

Interesting discussion. I have had a couple of live fibres for about 4 years now and given them a fair work out, and pushed them a little beyond their limits ;) ;D. My 15-24kg overhead I find is just right for running 50lb braid, and I don't think it is to light in the tip althought I wouldn't use this rod if I was running mono. I push my 8-10kg spin stick way beyond what it should be doing and it handles it no problems. Both rods have had failures with runners but I have never owned a rod that hasn't done a runner at some stage (even Fuji runners).

I am pretty happy with the Live Fibres and think they are better than any other rod I own or have used in the past. I can't compare a custom rod as I have never owned one, but have no doubt I could get a better rod built if I wanted to pay a little more. For the rec fishing I do, I dont see too much advantage of a custom rod as these off the shelf numbers seem to be lasting the distance. If I take up serious bill fishing, I will consider a custom rod. ;D

Cheers,

Mark

[mackmauler]

Phill, i use mainly angler rods, and not to forget the classic M10 :o

[Heath]

DFOX,

Firstly, well said.

Often when people bag a product they don't back it up with facts. You have definatly stated your case.

I personally like the Live Fibres. I have 3 x RLF20 ( 8-10spin ), 1 x RLF19 (15-24kg Overhead ), 1 x RLF19s ( 15-24kg Spin ), I've had a tip replaced on one of the RLF20 cause the ceramic fell out of the frame.
I'm not what I would call a rod conercour'(sp?) but I use what I find fits the bill. I too have pushed some of these rods well beyond their anticipated rating. In one case hooking upto & staying connected to a Marlin on a RLF20 for about an hour.

Besides the tip failing, I've never had an issue with the rods. The RRP for a Live Fibre isn't cheap & the fact that they are made locally probly does have something to do with that.

As Willo said there are more and more so called seconds getting about. I for one, don't mind the seconds. IMO the imperfections are minute & not worth mentioning and for 50% or less of the RRP of a non second rod, I'll put up with the small things wrong with the rod. None of which is structual BTW.

I suppose people just get a favourite brand & stick too it & with the rods being manufactured right in Qld its no doubt they would be popular.

The call of a custom rod is getting louder I might add. I've seen some of the fantastic rods Willo has knocked up for himself & can see why you would move away from off the shelf rods to customs.

But for any fisho out there whos contemplating a Live Fibre, I wouldn't be put off by this thread. They are good rods to use & while some people may destroy the rods, there are plenty who don't.

[agnes_jack]

I think that the key factor in this debate is Off the shelf!
Custom rods will always be a better option than production rods. But you pay for the difference. Ive got more live fibres than you can poke a stick at ;D
I have some of the live fibre lightning rods in 2kg spin, 4kg baitcaster, and 8kg baitcaster and I wouldnt bother making one to replace those with, they are brilliant for thier purposes. I use several for offshore work, and one for off the rocks. Apart from 2 tip failures, I don't have any beef with them at all. I have replaced many, many fuji guides and tips on a whole range of rods, and I feel that if your using rods hard and taking them to or above thier limits, that this is to be expected. Even if they are bound on by a custom rod builder you will still have failures.
If you want the best go for a custom rod for sure, for a decent rod off the shelf you won't go far past a livefibre. In the scale of things these days, a livefibre is not all that expensive either. You can pay a heap more for rods that in my opinion are not as strong as a livefibre.
Weigh up the pro's and con's.

Regards, Tony

[spaniard]

I agree with everyone when they say for an off the shelf rod the live fibre is the pick, thats why ive got so many, but what i read on this sight and other articles are blokes like many of you that are well above average fishermen using lets face it second rate rods. Apart from the reel the rod is the most important piece of equipement you use fishing, and id expect blokes that buy expensive boats outboards sounders etc to at least be using well above off the shelf gear. Let me just state the rods fully custom built i use cost $290, thats with the best of everything and its all adjusted to suit me.The off the shelf job is acompromise adjusted to suit everyone. would your wife use the same rod set up as you? cause not but yet we all buy the same 10-15kg stick ! Volvo i to like a sensitive tip, and the blank is not the debate, but if given the choice of the but length reel seat placement rod lenth power in the tip power in the base quality of hardware we,d all have different set ups, yet say golf players custom whats good for them! fishermen just buy what there told. With the experience of many of you ya should be able to say YES this will work.Just on an interest note how much are some of the deals you getting on these new sticks?
GREG i know youve got a new live fibre but il gladly give you one of mine to use to compare, i know what suits me might not you but the difference is so big its remarkable.
Ive included some photos of rods that have done simular work so everyone can understand where im coming from.
The bottom rod is one of my live fibres youl notice the binding starting to crack and the gold trim is only painted on. The middle rod has caught well over 5 tonne of fish with no failure and is a pleasure to use, the top rod is a slightly heavier blank carbon fibre base and all silicon carbide guides(an over kill for most ) but kills the reds and not the angler.
In soming up Agnes jack is right in stating off the shelf live fibres the go but if your serious id think seriously differently and invest 300 bucks on something much superior... your thoughts foxy

[spaniard]

sorry i should have said im on spaniards computer logged on as him but it me FOXY, heres the next runners along the same rods

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Sounds like a live fibre blank with custom fittings would be a good solution.
Anyone know what the blanks are worth, and what the end cost of getting quality runners, bindings, seat and grips would be?
If it works out about $50 - $70 more than the off the shelf price, then I guess that would be a pretty cost effective solution.
I'm guessing a live fibre blank that is already enjoying a high volume of sales, could be got cheaper than the equivalent blank of another brand.
Thoughts / comments / (derogatory remarks ;D)?
Cheers
Jeff

[agnes_jack]

G'day Jeff
You would be looking around that figure for a custom rod on a live fibre blank!
Depending on guides etc.

# # # # # # # # Regards, Tony

PS
Foxy you would (as a pro) probably use your rods more in a couple of trips than most rec fisho's would in a lifetime, consequently the wear would be much greater.Another point too is if the rod you are showing has always been used with the correct line class. I have often used my livefibres with line classes way over there rating and still not had that same problem.

[dfox]

Yep your quite correct tony i do on acassions use over the rated line classes usually on braid, but in saying that i do look after my gear quite well its not uncommon for the rods to get a good wipe down with inox. Whats also surprising is that when people judge outboards they say a pro has one thats done 2000 hrs no probs it must be good yet rods are different? What have others been quoted on a new texalium and not you greg you probably got it for a song mate, lol ,...foxy

[damons33]

they are too slow an action and are over rated for line class eg. 6kg spin rod i use for 3kg line class and i figure the best rod they make in the range is the 15kilo overhead 7'6" for spanish mackeral and then its a heavy rod to hold.
the runners do break! they are made in taiwan.
make mine a custom high modulus grahite jobby anyday as they hurt the fish more then the angler and allow the use of more of your line class(my glx loomis 4kg double handed overhead rod is 4kg and reaches full load at 4kg not 2kg).
look some people cant afford $700 for a fishun' rod(or a black 7 series bmw!) so i suppose they will beat up the goodness of the better choice of rod to make themselves feel better.
at the end of the day you get what you pay for! nothing recovers as quickly as high mod graphite, but they do break if you rough treat them.
:-*
damo

[kevy]

yo dfox, i learnt from the best, one rod harrison, been there done that. don' t fall for all this crap. i have sabre short strokers & they have caught some damm huge fish. maybe you don't need them in this neck of the woods, depends on what you target, all the best, kevy.

[Willo]

Sounds like a live fibre blank with custom fittings would be a good solution.
Anyone know what the blanks are worth, and what the end cost of getting quality runners, bindings, seat and grips would be?
If it works out about $50 - $70 more than the off the shelf price, then I guess that would be a pretty cost effective solution.
I'm guessing a live fibre blank that is already enjoying a high volume of sales, could be got cheaper than the equivalent blank of another brand.
Thoughts / comments / (derogatory remarks ;D)?
Cheers
Jeff

Hi Gorilla
When you get into custom rods you will also find out that there are a lot better blanks available also.
For interest sake a Live Fibre 10 -15kg blank from Mo tackle is $112

[SeaSaw]

OK Foxy, I'll ask - where can you get a good custom rod for under $300. :o :o I would definately go for the custom job at that price. Sounds like the cost of materials with no labour being charged.

The way I understand getting a custom rod made is that it takes 20 - 25 hours in labour alone @ $25 per hour, so that is at least $450 just in labour. I would expect to pay around $800 to get a quality custom rod suited to my needs. ???

I have no argument against custom rods and agree that you get what you pay for. The bindings on my live fibres look like yours and are all cracking. ??? The issue is, I paid under $200 each, 4 years ago and they have served me well, and at the time I could not afford two $800 rods. On the "you get what you pay for" argument, I have seen custom rods worth over $4,000 :o :o, so where do you stop - life is full of compromises. This whole issue comes down to quality versus price, which is the trade off we all make on all our purchases, be that cars, boats, houses, fishing rods ;D

However, if custom rods are available at $300 then the choice is easy as that offers a great price and high quality. :D If you are willing to pass on the details, I know where my next rod will be coming from. ;D ;D ? or are you about to go into business for yourself [smiley=huh2.gif] ;D [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

Just my thoughts,

Cheers,

Mark

[Volvo]

:)Seawsaw 25 hours on a Custom Rod would only be if you have personalise Butt wrapps added..
5 hours putting a custom rod together far as labour goes would be quite a bit of time not allowing for resin dry times that is...Thats also allowing for double guide wraps..
The cost does come in on quallity materiel, and knowledge into putting the piece together..ie; the rod should be built to suit the type of Fish you wish to chase plus you shouldnt get nackered after bringin up a couple of fish with it ..Could go on :-X but think that should do :)..
Cheers
To be honest most the well known blanks are still good gear if put together well..
Cheers

[Duncs]

Like See Saw and others have said, it all comes down to quality verses price. If you want a pro quality rod then you have to pay the price.

Consider this: A pro quality bicycle with carbon fibre frame will cost $5-10,000 each, a pro quality digital camera $10,000 then add lenses (some are over $20,000!), Top line set of golf clubs are many thousands of dollars. A proffesional and many keen amateurs would have more than one set of everything.

Or try this: If your boat is worth say $40,000 and you fish offshore several times per week, burning up to $5,000 odd worth of fuel per year on your passion or business, then what should the tools at the pointy end of the exercise be worth?

I guess my point is that live fibres are a nice middle range kind of rod, but if you want the quality gear for serious fishing then you have to pay more than a couple of hundered dollars. Theres a whole lot of great rods out there, most of which never make it into a tackle shop as they are not well known in Australia. Talking to rod builders, guys in tackle shops and asking questions on the net is a great way to find out some of these gems.

Cheers

Duncan

[dfox]

Mark the idea of this post is a debate and not an add so il pm you the details so that every think ive said is taken seriously...foxy

[agnes_jack]

Foxy
What sort of blanks would you consider as an alternative for say a 15-24 7' livefibre ?
in a reasonable price range
Regards, Tony

[agnes_jack]

Jeff
As an exercise, I priced what it would cost for me to build a custom livefibre.
Guides- Fuji #blrlg game guides
Tip- Heavy duty bult
Grips-front and rear du game grip
Reel seat-heavy duty dpsh
Gimbal- bcgc
All guides underbound and double overbind
Approx- $340 in total cost to customer.
Similar price for similar rod, adjustments for difference on price of blanks

Conclusion- About $150- $160 above the cost of an off the shelf livefibre, with much better quality guides, tip and fittings double overbind

# # # # # # # Regards, Tony

[dfox]

Tony this is an easy one to answer the two blanks id recomend are the locally manufactured HP 27 and HP 28 snyderglass graphite composites, these blanks have been thouroughly researched and developed in our back yards and i believe they cost around $85, combine that with blrlg h-d guides silicon tip, hyperlon grips quality reel seat etc and your looking sweet! I like every think triple bound as well...foxy

[agnes_jack]

Foxy
That price for the blanks would make them a little cheaper to build than a custom live fibre, the triple overbind would make only a small difference to the construction price.
Good thread mate!

Regards, Tony

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Willo,
Thanks for that mate. Meant to bring the Mo's catalogue back up here with me for reference, but forgot it of course.
Any chance you want to share your wisdom on choice of blanks?

Tony,
That pricing is interesting. Guess a run of a dozen or 20 units would improve the numbers further.

Cheers
Jeff
PS interesting topic foxy. [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

[agnes_jack]

Jeff
That price is based on a standard rate, A run of 12-20 units would only change if the blanks and materials could be purchased cheaper in bulk. The labour side would remain the same. Based on those sort of figures as Foxy says a good custom rod could come in at around the $300 mark, If you had a good repore with your rod builder.

Regards, Tony

[Jeremy]

I had 4 custom rods made up for less than $200 each. 4 kg baitcaster, 6-10 kg spin, 6 kg oh, 8 kg oh. All fuji components, pacific composite blanks, customised to my requirements. I am very happy with the quality of the work, but I am using them within their ratings and not pulling hundreds of kgs with them.

If anyone is interested he is in Capalaba (Brisbane). If you want the details, have a look at one of the newsletter on our website.

Jeremy

[Volvo]

:)Purchase a Custom Rod for around the $300, you are doing well..Doesnt matter wether 4-6kg stick or 10-15kg..One the parts will be cheaper though the Rod a tad a little more fussy putting together whilst the other the parts dearer though the Rod a lot easier and faster putting together...SOMETIMES :)...
Think main thrust of the debate so far is "Ya get what ya pay for""???..