Fish Species not shared between countries - why?

[bigmack]

Ok Guys - here is a really interesting question for you.

I lived in NZ for nine years and fished for Snapper & Kingfish up in Frenchs Pass, Salmon and Trout around Christchurch etc.

Australia and New Zealand have these species in common - Snapper, Kingfish, Morwong, Bluefin, Yellowfin, Mullet, Garfish, kahwai/Australian Salmon, Blackfish in the North Island (and they are huge because no one fishes for them) Hapuku/Groper, Gurnard, Trevally

but here is the interesting bit ........... No Tailor? Why? when they have them in Sth Africa and US i think (is that right - Blufish)
no bream, no flathead and no whiting.

Any experts like to have a shot at this - would it be to do with evolution and the exact time that NZ got split off from the Great Land, Gondwana.

thanks

[Mick]

Maybe they don't want to live in NZ...

[rando]

Interesting question!!I dont know the answer & may I add to it? Have you heard of tailor in the pacific Islands? Norfolk,Lord Howe, The Cook Is???

[bigmack]

he he he - yes the second answer was good. I dont know about Lord Howe etc. I just thought it was really weird that you would find blackfish which in my opinion is kind of close to bream in shared habitat/ estuary and rock situations and the commonality of salmon and kingies and snapper and then the gaps.

On the blackfish - NZ call them parore and they hang around the wharves and pylons in the Bay of Islands - they are rated as a crap fish over there and man they are big.

anyone got any marine biolgist or evolutionary scientist friends that could answer!

[2iar]

I reckon they do have them , it's just that they're known as "fush", ay.

:D

Good luck,
Mike

PS - Never thought *I'd* be the one to take the piss out of accents on Ausfish :D

[Duyz72]

Black fish rated so low? How? Maybe they tuffen up when they get so big? They must be big! Every one I have eaten is sooooooooooo tasty!

[rando]

Mick
they must have seen what happens to the sheep :-X ;D

[gropeher]

Kaiwhai is not Salmon, The NZ kaiwhai is Tailor!
Now I miss a good gurnard, please tell me where you are catching gurnard in Australia, I have never heard of it being over here, are you sure?.

Ryan..

[DaveSue_Fishos_Two]

Water temperatures, current direction and strength and the like. I really don't think that it is rocket science. You could ask the same questions about the different races on Earth.

Cheers
Dave

[philip_thomson]

i heard that the snapper in NZ are different to the Snapper in Australia. that the NZ snapper don;t get knobs on there heads?

is this just a story or is it true?

[raefpud]

They got some big ass bream here in Japan - got several names for them too

[gropeher]

Unlucky Phil,
Trust me mate, that story is bullshit, the snapper have knobs there too, I saw that post here a month or so back and stated that then, the snapper here are ezacery the same there.

[DICER]

They call bream over here in the Netherlands, Dorado. The head profile of Dorado is however slightly different, but they taste the same. We also get snapper-like fish from the red sea and mediterranean. Tomorrow I go fishing for zeebaars (a type of sea bass) - and the equivalent of tailor to some degree (not species wise but in the way the dominate, sight feed and migrate), though they are much yummier and oily.

Some of the reasons why you have fish species in one place but not another is largely due to:- 1) geographical isolation (land masses, currents, dependencies on bait species, reproductive areas and migratory reasons. Geographical isolation can also occur because of competition for resources anywhere in the food chain)
2) breeding isolation (sometime you'll find very similar species, isolated by various mechanisms, over a long period of time will eventually not interbreed - hence you observe what appear to be almost the same species but they can not or will not breed further)

One example - a cicada species in the united states has become isolated by hatching slightly earlier than its counter part cicadas. Because it takes ~15 years for this insect to go from juvenile to adult, and it is such a short period of time in which they breed, it was relatively quick for them to speciate apart and alter course of development. Perhaps tailor can interbreed between various locations around the world, but I believe you would have to test this first. Only after breeding (and genetic examination) could you say that they were the same species.

Cichlids fish species is an excellent model of speciation. Over 500 different species and sub-species in a short period of time.

I guess though (as I am not a fish evolutionary biologist expert) that some species of fish either migrated in the past (like between NZ and Aust) and did not under go further rapid speciation - jew, tailor etc. Some others did, and others remained panmictic or global (bream, tuna, mackerel etc)

[scatter1]

the new zealand kahawai is the australian salmon

sam

[gropeher]

Scatter 1,
Sorry mate your wrong, unless the DVD I got here explaining fish species around the world, common to differing nations, however with differing names is incorrect, and unless all the kawhai I caught and ate back home were not kawhai.
I know a kawhai and I know a tailor when I see and catch it and I know they both taste the same, caught heaps over the years.

Cheers..

[PG]

could have something to do with temperatures too. Some flathead species love cold water but the duskies prefer it warm. An evolutionary trend I'd reckon. Not just for flathead but any species. Don't find crocs much further south than Gladstone (not on a regular basis anyway) and because of that, ya won't find lungfish where you find crocs. Predator/temperature/niche. It's all important.
What about marsupials? Don't find skippies anywhere else in the world or monotremes (echidnas and platypus).
I reckon it's all about isolation many many years ago and then subsequent evolution since so that a developing species fits into a niche that another animal hasn't adapted to. Exactly the theory behind Charles DArwin's theory of evolution.
That's my theory, I'm not real bright but I can lift heavy things !

[DICER]

I think niche is what I was trying allude to with tailor versus zeebars. The both occupy a somewhat similar position within the ecosystem and food chain (aka niche). Temperature is however also a form of geographical boundary isolation, but you're right with the marsupial isolation in the past.

Where a species develops traits that appear similar to another species, but from a completely different animal origin - like for example dogs and tasmanian tigers - it is said to be convergent evolution. Tasmanian tigers (which were a marsupial) and dogs (placental mammal) have essentially similar traits except for the stripes on the tasmanian tiger. Many more examples of convergent evolution exist between placentals and marsupials. It is also worth noting that the Tasmanian tiger existed on the Australian mainland until ~4000-5000 years ago. They vanished roughly when dingos became more apparent - and this could relate to niche exploitation.

Convergent evolution can result in surprisingly similar animal bodies or body parts. You'll see it often also in fish. Organisms occupying a similar niche will often lead to this.

[bigmack]

Reel Magic - mate unfortunately you are wrong or the DVD you have is misleading.

Have a look at the following like http://www.fishnz.co.nz/species.cfm?cat=Saltwater&fish=Kahawai

The Kahwai is pretty much the same as the Australian Salmon and is definitly not the Tailor. The tailor does not exist as a species in NZ, thats why I posted the question in the first place.

I dont think anyone would ever say the Kahwai / Australian Salmon tastes the same as Tailor fresh caught and pan fried.

As for the snapper - not having bumps etc. It seems mostly true that NZ Snapper do not get the same Knobbly bumps as some of our fish and the NZ Snapper seems to closely resemble the schooling snapper we get here.

Cheers

[Dodgy_Back]

I always thought they had Bream in NZ.
Mick

[pukunui]

Kahawai is definatly Aust salmon
no tailor in NZ
no bream
but you get flounder in both Aust and NZ
barracooda too.
and alot of the sharks are the same eg. makos ,grey nurse

as for the snapper i have noticed the different shape too
the NZ ones look more like the juvi ones from over here

cheers

[DICER]

Australian salmon grows larger than 80 cm (perhaps this is the odd specimen), but behaves the same as NZ salmon

[gropeher]

Bigmack,
Perhaps I am wrong, all I can say is the DVD specifically mentions Tailor and Kawhai as the same, and a number of very experienced fishos over here have also made reference to that fact to me, I must say I still believe they are one in the same family, however I donot profess to knowing all in fishing, very little infact and still learning.
The DVD 'expert' commentator is a very well known Australian fisherman with a number of vids out, unfortunately the name of it and him leave me at this particular moment, I have leant it to a mate who is back home for a funeral at present.

Cheers..

[clutter]

I believe they don't have species such as Flathead, Bream and Whiting in NZ as they don't have the mangrove esturine systems needed for them to breed. As far as I know most of the rivers over there are fresh water fed from the mountains and not really tidal to the scale that we have over here and pretty rocky.

Clutter

[PG]

Oh SHUT !...theer all fush innywey, duz ut mitter wheer they cum from? So long uz ewe cun eet thum wuth chups, ut's all good !
;D

[DICER]

don't forget your jundels, chully bun with the lud, and your test tuckets...

[bigmack]

Ok - here are some pictures. Have a look at the Kahwai and then have a look at the large picture of the Australian Salmon and then compare to Tailor. They are definitely not the same - whoever said it and I dont care whether they are a noted fishing writer or journalist or what. Its not the same fish. Perhaps they were saying they fulfil a similar role; caught in surf school up and occassionally go nuts on the whitebait providing excellent fishing. The kahwai is predominatly used as a large snapper bait in NZ.

[bigmack]

Next the Australian Salmon

[bigmack]

Next the mighty tailor

[bigmack]

Notice the spots and the shape of the Kahwai is identical to the Australian Salmon and then check out the look of the tailor, the head shape, overbite on the lower jaw, body shape, tail shape and general silver colouration with green or bluish backs. Very differnt from the Sambo.

You would have to agree that the Kahwai is not the Tailor!

[bigmack]

Forgot to mention the "dont mess with me" demeanour of the tailor............o totally mean look on its face.

Cheers