better braids

[Steve_Ooi]

To correct those technical inaccuracies about GsP braids for flyreel backing - thinner, I'm afraid is not better. The difs in diameter between the handful of brands with serious backing credentials are sufficiently infinitesimal as to not have any bearing on matters like water pressure on the tippit and recovery rates. The downsides for braids that are thinner for a stated breaking strain is that they actually have less overall tensil strength that those that are a thou' or so thicker. The number of "picks" per inch of weave is another factor. Too many (the tighter the weave) the weaker the line, too few and we're back to the awful handling hassles we had with first generation braids. Pick densities vary between brands. Thinner diametres also mean a greater vunerability to the knocks, bumps and wear that comes under the general heading of abrasion resistance - braids' Achilles heel. Colourwise, hot pink offers the best combination of angler situation awareness and (in) visibility to fish.

With every dealing we can possibly have with abrasion resistance, regardless of whether it's tippet or backing, the foremost "anti" factor is the diameter of the material. At this juncture in lines development, the capacity to spread the load counts for more than smaller diametres that might contain snake oils or genuine toughening ingredients.

Harro


So far I found with some braid on the market while they are thin they also tend to have poor shock resisting qualities.
No doubt a lot of people have experienced the cast/ backlash phenomenon, only to have the lure departing from the line at a high speed. Shock resisting quality’s seem to come from diameter / amount of fibre material and the weaving process used.
Elongation or stretch of a straight UHMW polyethylene fibre would be quite limited, fused and straight fibre lines thus exhibit minimum stretch qualities .
But by manufacturing a tight weave that is by having the right amount of picks per inch in a braided line( not too much or too little) it’s possible to introduce certain characteristic that are favourable to the fishermen, shock resistance being one. No doubt the amount of strands ( bundles of individual fibres) that are weaved to make up a braid has some bearing on it surface texture and load characteristics. Just compare ropes, poorer quality rope made be only made from three strands braided together, while others ropes of similar diameter exhibit better characteristics because they are made of many strands braided together. The braid acts as chinese finger locks pulling down on each other locking fibres into place, a tight weave has less loose fibres, and they tend not to get that fluffed up look where fibres are fracturing.
Check out different braids , pull the end of it apart and count the strands (bundles of fibres) that are braided to make up the line, 50 lb bionic has 8.
Abrasion resistance with braids is directly proportional to the diameter of the braid , thicker braids have better abrasion resistance.
Here some other interesting questions that may be applicable.
If I go with a smallest diameter braid do I increase the risk of cutting fingers on the line, increase the risk of the backing digging into loose wraps on the spool ,or increase the chance of loosing a fish due to nicks or abrasion.

Just interesting thoughts, I thought I’d post up for discussion.

Poony

[Jack_Lives_Here]

I use braid because it has minimum stretch. As many know jacks and snag lurking critters will get home just on the bend of your rod. ;D
Certain applications could possibly benefit from a low stretch - eg: luring for flathead. I just use a softer rod. I don't believe it would be something I would put on my reels.

Definitely yes to cutting fingers with the finner dia. http://www.ausfish.com.au/chat/images/smilies/cwm14.gif I'd compare it to a knife edge. A fine edge cuts easily and an edge on a butter knife (50lb BB) not so easy. I dare say it is one of the things new people converting to braid need to be defintely aware of.

[Slates]

G'day Steve.
Very interesting words from yourself and Harro there.

The shock resistance you mention - I would've thought this is directly related to the line's own ability to stretch?
eg: mono has great shock resistance because it can stretch a (comparitively) long way in a short time whereas braids do not stretch and would rather part company (yep, I've seen a few of my large chrome slices dissappear over the back breakers when surf fishing!).
Some surf fishermen use a 3m 'shock tippet' of 30-40 lb mono for this reason. I've tried it a few times, but because of my laziness to try new knots, I tied one unsuccessful one and went back to braid straight to the swivel.

Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this one?

Cheers, Slates

[Birdy]

Steve,

I agree mate,since the very first braids hit the market in the great revolution of the middle late 90's i have allways been aware of the relatively poor abrasion resistance of braided line.This is not because of it's construction or material used but simply a con of the thinner dia. of braid.Take 50 lb mono for instance and for the purpose of this discussion we'll say the mono is twice as thick as the braid and the mono is X of an inch think,so therefor the braid is half of X.So we rub the mono over a rock and take away half of the dia of the mono so in theory we have approx. 25 lb of breaking strain left after the fish has rubbed it over a rock,over the same rock we rub the braid and i believe that braid is also alot more brital than mono ..get to that later.So we lose the same amount of line to the rock that we did with the mono......remembering that the mono was twice as thick..what have we got left...no braid and a line breakage,this is what many poeple have found around rocks with braid.
The brital thing is this,you know as well as anyone that the fibres that make up braid can be snapped if it is bent past a critical point,the reason it so flexable is that the fibres can hinge on one another and not be bent to a critical point but once we run the braid over a accute (not even sharp) edge with the line under pressure those fibres will reach there critical point and a few of them will break and weaken the line and so on and so forth untill it parts.It's the same process as a graphite rod breaking ...stong untill it reaches it's critical point and then bang.The thing to remember is that just because the fibre will break at say 18 degrees that doesn't mean that a rod/line fibre will let go at that if the difference between the to extremes of the rod/line is over 18 degrees....A practical experiment for this is get your favourite graphite rod and bend the tip while holding the but to about 45 degrees it will do it easy,it would pass that angle on every cast you make ....now there is now way any graphite rod would handle that bend at ONE point in it's lenth..same with braid fibre and this is what happens when you run it over an edge under pressure,mono will handle this easily.
Then you bring that info into the shock resistance debate and when that line reaches it's critical point what makes the line let go?....fibres snapping and weakening the line within the knot i think ..although i have seen fireline let go through the line.I don't reckon some of the lures i've broke off in that circumstance would generate enough inertia to break 50 lb .

What does this mean to fisho's....bugger all i think but it shows braid is far from perfect.

How's that for a ramble!Birdy

[Maxg]

Well golly, GsP, is made from high density polyethylene, extruded in the gel state through micro apatures into yarns, or fibres which are strong and thin. It has a very high modulus which gives it a critical radius which means it fractures if it's bent past a certain angle which isn't anything like 18 degrees, more like 300 plus.
But it is fragile, because it cuts easily with sharp edges has a lousy knot strength and that is generally what causes the casting fracture problem.
But you are using a high modulus graphite rod and a high modules GsP line with very low stretch, which is slippery and thin. Casting a lure with any weight causes sudden high velocity changes in direction, and very sudden shock stress on the knots which slip and cause fibre fracture. Away goes lure. Ideally with high modulus lines, you need lower modulus rods, ergo glass because of slower response rates.
A while ago I did some abrasion tests and funnily enough I got a lot of crap because it wasn't technical but now it seems I was right, abrasion resistance is directly proportional to B/S which is proportional to thickness
or diameter.
If you want to use thin strong braids try Stren Kevlar which has a much greater abrasion resistance than GsP and you can glue it and Stren recommend that you do so to increase knot strength which is bad as buggery. But you can glue it and the b/s on the spool is half the test b/s, its sold at knot strength. If you can get it.
Look common sense tells you that in nasty water Penn 10X is better than GsP any day. Mono still has its place in fishing, and in some places, like mangroves beats GsP hollow.
GsP is ideal for clean water where the chances of funnies are few.
You want to go to the limits, there are pitfalls. Cheers Max