LC13 use

[Maxg]

I thought I'd put this here because of the many questions about LC13 use and the obvious lack of knowledge that exists out there. Bear in mind its not just another fly line, but a thin fast sinking head that gets up a whacking velocity and accelerates clousers to supersonic speeds. These things are not really for beginners so be careful. OK

FLY LINE SELECTION TABLE

The AFTMA line number and the rod number, for optimum rod loading, will not necessarily be the same. Line manufacturers numbering is based upon the weight of the first 30 ft of a line. The rod, however, is usually designed to cast 45 or more feet of a double taper line. Therefore, it may not be optimally loaded by lines of different designs such as Weight Forward, Triangle Taper or Shooting Tapers. Even though the line has the same number as the rod, only the weight of the first thirty feet will be the same, the total line weight (of 45 or more feet) will be less, because most of the belly weight of a Double Taper will be missing.

To compensate for this the rod should be "over lined" in order to match the casting weight of a Double Taper line (some will argue that in either case casting 30' of line will load the rod the same but they forget that the line in the guides is also part of the load, so different- types of lines only cast the same up to about 25') and it must be remembered that the reason for choosing a WF line is to be able to shoot it for distance, this distance capability won't be realised if the. optimum load isn't provided.

The following table relates ONLY to LC13 shooting heads and lengths that should be used. Bear in mind there may be different effects with LC13 and the table is not absolute.

Line or Rod AFTMA Required Load LC13 13gns/ft

#8 210gns 315gns #10 24.5 feet
#9 240gns 360gns #11 27.5 feet
#10 280gns 420gns #12 30 feet
#11 330gns 495gns #13 38 feet
#12 380gns 570gns #14 43.5 feet
Bear in mind that rods under AFTMA 8 require LC13 lengths under 24.5 feet in length and it is nor recommended that those lengths might cause problems. Lengths over 30ft can only be achieved form bulk lots.
It is recommended that the LC13 line selected is weighed on a powder scale to detirmine the actual weight of the line. It could be anywhere between 13 and 13.5gns per foot and lengths should be calculated from the actual LC13 weight/ft.
Casting lengths over 35 feet might also present problems.
The information comes from Bill Nash billsknots@aol.com who is a recognised guru on this subject.
Max

[swflyfish]

I have heard a bit about these lines/heads and a good mate of mine in cairns uses them frequently for chasing pelagics. It is good to see some tech info on them and to see the lenghts in relation to the weights of the rods used. I have not used them as yet but I think I will have to give it a shot as my mate won't stop talking about them until I do. I am yet to find a running line that I have been happy with but he swears by a line by Cortland called 'cobra'- ever heard of these and if so what is the drum?

[UNCLEBARRY]

Good evening Max and HNL
If I may add,
We also have been working on LC13 loads also, and would suggest to any one, start your line length at least 2 feet longer than the standard rod weight/lenght as the loading from rod brand to rod brand can and does vary. As does the load with the running line.

For any body looking for a longer than the standard packet of 30 feet LC13, please feel free to contact me for details and I will direct you to a supplier.

Running/hauling lines, we are now using a Talon Level floating line 4w, as a running line because of the plastic coating it roars through the guides and is easy on the fingers.

Why use a LC13 head, simple the 'normal' casting distance is around 110 feet plus, all with one backcast, its called Hucking.

Kind regards
Barry Ryan

[Maxg]

Ah yes Cobra, it has as many fangs as well. It twists, needs to be soaked overnight, kept wet on the reel on the way to fishing, by wrapping in wet towling, stretched before use, needs a line tamer, which means a deep no hole container with water in the bottom. Once it dries out, disaster looms.
It is monofilament and stretches, depending on breaking strain, which means you have to use something line 50lb to get into the reduced stretch area. Loops are made with knots, clickety click stuff. Its been around for 30 or so years but only recently discovered in Oz. Someone re-invented the stone wheel. Another mono running line is Amnesia, much favoured by striper anglers in the California delta
Americans don't seem to like Cobra which is probably understandable.
One needs to understand the intracies of shooting heads, and basic "hucking" before venturing into LC13 theory, it isn't casting as such, since it is one back and shoot.
The problem is that the LC13 product sticks at 13gns/foot and it's older brother LC15 at 15gns/foot has been discontinued for some obscure reason which is beyond my comprehension. When one ventures into rod weights heavier than #10 one needs more weight than the LC13 provides. Pity but reality. I know there will be hoots and howls about this view of Cobra, but I went out of mono shooting lines 30 years ago for a number of sane reasons and can see no point in going back to the starting line.
Max

[swflyfish]

Max- thanks for the advice on the cobra lines- I have not used them as yet but I am familiar with Amnesia and haven't used them for years as they were behaving similarly to the way you describe the cobra lines. Can you suggest a running line that doesn't have these sort of problems? I see Uncle Barry has one that he is suggesting and also info on the LC13 lines- can you offer advice as well??

[MartinF]

Max, there are those who are friendlier to Cobra and Rio Slick shooter. Amongst them are some big names in Australian Fly fishing. I thinks it's worth listing the positive side in their opinion as well for a balanced view.

I've also started using Rio's slick shooter - at the price it's worth experimenting with. A friend also uses it. When it comes off his reel it's in coils and needs a good stretch. When it comes off mine it's fishable straight away. There might be a critical reel radius at which it forms memory - I don't know. Anyway, nearly all fly lines need to be stretched before a days fishing - well at least I often see it recommended. Now, I don't know about all this wrapping it in wet towels and needing to soak it the night before. I don't do any of that and it fishes fine.

As far as the line tamer goes - yes, you need one (flat plastic bread board with plasitc spikes through it will suffice - not a deep container with water)! But then I think you need some form of line tamer for any line when fishing off an unstable platform - any water borne craft or line basket. It's fine fishing off the rocks but when a boats moves around on the swell/chop/wake or you're motoring after schools of pelagics, those coils are going to move around, overlap incorrectly and bunch into a mess next time you cast. A normal fly line will take a while to sort out, a running line will take ages. Either way, you've lost a fish!!!! Use some method of line control.

You don't have to knot the Cobra/Slick Shooter either. 30cm of braided mono with a spliced loop will give a secure connection. At 50lb of breaking strain it's still thinner than any running line I've seen (it's a flat mono not round for those who don't know).


I'm happy with it for now. I've seen it bunch and it's not pretty but that's the compromise. Any shooting line is going to bunch up more than a standard fly line. That's the trade off when you want distance. And the Slick Shooter goes for miles - just as far or maybe further than others. I'm also happy to change to a different system if it gets out of hand.

I just want to give another side to the story so people can think about and maybe experiment with different tackle types.


Barry, I'd be interested in the source for the bulk LC-13. I'm also interested in using 4wt lines for running lines. How much do they car for?

Many thanks
Martin

[Maxg]

Well in my opinion, Cobra, or any monofilament running line is the pits, and I don't care who uses them, most of those who do have had them 10 minutes anyway and they are thicker that a 20lb mono braid GsP stuffed running line, which doesn't need stretching, doesn't bother about being wet, has no stretch, no knots and goes like a rocket. All of that is old hat stuff, the problem is that shop bought running lines Rio included are too short. Anyway, I used mono running lines and shooting heads in 1969 and stopped doing it in 1969, the mono running lines I mean. Look anyone can use what they want, its a free choice, I'm just pointing out things about Cobra lines. You might try getting it well soaked and keep it wet, you might be suprised. max