ARC - ane art

[landy1]

G'day all
Well after grinding back umpteen layers of paint on the bow of my vessel i have finally found the reason for the suprising amount of water my boat collects. I am the proud owner of 3 horizontal splits each about 1.5 inches long and a doozy of a vertical split about 5 inches long. Not being familiar with the black art of welding can anyone give me a heads up on what this is going to do to my wallet and the easiest/cheapest ways of going about it.
cheers
Mick (wheres that bucket)

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Mick,

Know how you feel, I brought home about 50L of Pindari dam earlier this year. I am hoping that the crack I got in my tinnie will sort of fix itself by the time I get back to aus coz I asked my fitter & turner brother to verify there is a crack. ;D Yeah right!

Think the repair might depend on what caused the cracks. Mine was caused by all the extra weight I put in the boat by adding a deck and battery etc. Only had a couple of small rollers along the length of the keel and the weight and bouncing on the trailer has caused the split. Don't think just running a weld along it is going to be strong enough unless I also add more rollers and move the position of the one that caused the drama. Might have to add some plate over it as well and get it welded around the circumference.

So think you had better work out what caused it first, then what's needed for repair, then maybe you can work out what its going to cost to fix. If you know exactly what you need done first, you will be in a better position to call around a few engineering shops or boat builders and compare some quotes.

Let us know what you think caused it, and a pic if its not too much trouble.

Cheers,
Jeff

[landy1]

Howdy, Ill see what i can do about a pic, the splits seem to have been caused by a stupid PO storing his fuel cell under the front deck at the bow (its a 12ft edgetracker punt). At least thats the horizontal splits they are all at the point where the hull starts to flatten out just forward of the old front bench seat. The one that has me worried is the big vertical one about half way up the bow.
cheers
Mick

[mackmauler]

Mick, aquamaster boats, used them to repair my boats and the service is great, being close to chrissie i bet hed be booked solid :-/ should cost no more than 100 to fix if its pretty clean around the cracks. you might need some more bracing in that area too, add another 100, better to get fixed right the first time ;) Rob

[landy1]

Howdy,
yep thats about what i thought. can anyone elucidate (spelling) on the pros and cons of the various types of welding. I spoke to a guy the other day and he said to only go with TIG as it produces less heat otherwise itll stretchthe alloy which will then split somewhere else. Any advice?
cheers
Mick

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Mick,
Just heard back from the one who fits and turns, and he reckons MIG is the go. Don't need to clean it up as much first, is more forgiving and less heat than TIG. ie better chance of a good welding job for less work and hopefully therefore cheaper for you.
Cheers
Jeff

[landy1]

Thanks for your sage advice gentlemen :o,I think ill tow the boat out and show it around a few welders. Definately needs some form of rienforcement.
cheers
Mick

[rick k]

100 mph tape and wait for the bow to fall off?

Speak to Stessl about whether the trailer is up to the job? Did the PO use the boat as a hugemongous box trailer for family hols?

[landy1]

I call the trailer the anti christ. Its of uncertain parentage and vintage but im building a new one. I was contemplating getting a whole new bow put over the top of the old one but dont know if this is possible affordable or practical.
cheers
Mick.
P.S. ill post some pics tomorrow

[shano]

Think you have to watch that the electrodes are the same grade as the original aluminium

thats an interesting comment you make there ! i am a boilermaker and have never heard of aluminium electrodes? :D anyway just having a pic lol! but yes would agree mig would be a better and more cost effective way of doing it as mentioned before you dont have to stuff around cleaning the aly too much before you weld it as if you were to tig it you would need it to be very clean as perisity would form in the weld! perosity is basically bubbles that form in a weld due to not enough sheilding gas being used sometimes this can be caused by wind blowing it away from the weld and also another cause is dirty parent metal!looks like an aero bar (lots of bubbles)

just a quick run down on different welding methods for those who are interested put in laymans terms!


T.I.G :
stands for :tungstan .inert .gas
it is very simmilar to brasing something where as for brasing you use a flamable gas and oxygen mixture (oxy) (flame) to product the heat source and use a filler rod to introduce the metal to the materal you are welding! in T.I.G welding you are using electricity as the heat saurce being delivered through a tungstan! there are different types of tungstan for different materials!i.e different ratios of tungstan used in each one! you also still use a filler rod to introduce the metal!maily used for neat finishes of welds that are needed and the ability not to use much heat and for needing very small welds! uses are stainless steel,aluminium,steel!

M.I.G
stands for metal. inert .gas
ok most people know what a M.I.G is for those that dont it is the welder that passes wire through the hand piece and out the gun! ok you can get 2 types of wires:
1:non-shielded (flux core)
2:shielded (needs a gas)
ok non-shielded wire uses a flux in the core of the wire !
ok getting back to basics:
when welding you need something to shield the weld from inpurities getting in! i.e when i spoke about perosity before! flux core wire like i said has flux in the core of the wire and the flux is what is used to shield the weld from contination like from oxygen which is the main killer of welds! and is what causes perosity (apart from such things like oils and greases ect ect) what the flux does is produces c02 which as you know is carbon dioxide (no oxygen present) if using this wire most times you will not get a neat weld as the flux is left behind and will need quiet alot of cleaning in most cases!
shielded wire you use with a gas! mostly c02 (carbon dioxide) this keeps the oxygen out! you will get a much neater weld and there will be alot less clean up needed if none!this is a very strong form and a very quick method of welding and is done mostly everywhere! uses are stainless steel,aluminium,and steel!

stick welding,arc welding or m.m.a.w(manual metal arc welding)
this is when you use a "electrode" that is coated with a flux (for protecting from the elements) this is a tricky one to master! it will give you a very strong weld and if mastered properly will leave a neat weld.. once the weld is finished it will leave flux on top that will be needed to be chipped off to expose the weld!mostly used out on site due to its easy ability to be very transportable.uses are steel!

then we come to the difference between oxy cutting and plazma cutting !both are similar to each other in a way!oxy cutting as stated uses a flamable gas (normally acetalene or l.p.g) mixed with oxygen to produce a very hot heat saurce!the oxygen is used to blow away the metal once heated and this produces the cutting action! can only cut steel!
plazma uses electricity to produce it's heat saurce! it also uses compressed air to blow the metal away once heated! and this produces the cutting action!it can cut both aluminium and steel!

anyway i hope this has cleared alot of confusion up for alot of people!

[Cloud_9]

what do you mean by electrodes???
mig has wire whish melts into what ever you are welding!
tig has a filler wire that you feed in with your hand.
arc dont know if that type has alloy stick.
shorely you cant be that tight that your quibleing over a couple buck to get it fixed.
unless your a good alloy welder don't attempt to do it your self, unless you want a new planter for the garden.

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Thought it best I remove my confussion from this topic and go spend a bit of time on google instead :-X :-X :-X
Hope you find someone to help you out Mick. ;)
Cheers,
Jeff

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Back again after having a "google". :o

Shano,
Was hoping I could ask your advice on a couple of questions.
Can you help with explaining the "consumable electrode" shown in the attached link? Is it the wire that is fed through the MIG or is it a separate electrode and the wire fed in adjacent to it?
Is the wire plain aluminium when you weld aluminium or is it some different material, and does it come in different types or grades (couldn't find much info on the wire)?
Also I read somewhere where they said boats over 10 years old are difficult to weld properly because the aluminium has age hardend, do you know anything about this?

Cloud9,
I am not about to try any of this myself, and saving a couple of bucks is certainly not the issue (not sure what gave you the impression I was "tight" ??? ). I will definitely be getting the services of someone who knows what he is doing? The couple of times I have had a stick welder in my hands has convinced me that there should be a law enacted that says specifically that I am not allowed anywhere within 50m of any welding device. ;D

Cheers,
Jeff

http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/jk4.html

[shano]

ok here goes what is in the drawing is a common mig diagram! yes you were correct the wire is fed through the mig gun and out the end !the other one you are saying" is it a separate electrode and the wire fed in adjacent to it? " is tig!
the aluminium wire that we use is nothing special and is normally just plain aluminium! now if it were stainless steel we have 2 types that we use 316 and 309 they are 2 different types with the 309 being prone to rusting and 316 being the rust proof type!as for gas types you use argon for aluminium welding instead of c02! anyway if you read everything i have written most will be explained! but mate for sure if you have any other questions for sure just ask away im only too happy to answer any questions you have ,being in the trade now for 10 years;)

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Thanks Shano,

Sounds like - if I have read your reply correctly and the wire fed trough the handle becomes the "consumable electrode" - in the case of MIG there is such a thing as an aluminium electrode then after all. ;)

I assumed (wrongly by the looks :-X) that there was different grades of the aluminium wire like there is with stainless. I'm fairly sure there are different grades of aluminium and assumed it would be best to use the same material. Not a big deal when just patching a tinnie I guess. Anyway, learn something new every day. :D

It must be the 316 rust proof type stainless wire that I nick out of my bro's toolbox to make inserts for my home made lures. Good to know the technical description of stuff I am half inching. ;D

Cheers, and thanks again.
Jeff

[landy1]

G'day All
well as promised here are the photos of the damage done. would be very interested if anyone has further info on alloy perishing.
cheers
Mick

[landy1]

And a representative of the little tackers. Note previous weld

[blaze]

hi all
just to confuse the issue more
you could buy a flux coated aliminum welding rod (I was given some that were 3.25 mm some years ago) could never use them propely though.
i think a tig gives a better quallity weld on aliminium (better penatration) than a mig.
cheers
blaze

[webby]

Michael, give Bushells engineering a call, their in Albion, opposite my shed, he does all specialist welding in alloy etc, and always has boats in for hull repairs.
Just speak to Paul.
regards

[Kerry]

Simply welding a crack like that, isn't going to stop it cracking again. Cracks really should be patched/plated.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Landy,
Don't know how the boat was originally constructed, but the longitudinal crack almost looks like it is a couple of plates coming apart. If not, then it is a very neat split. Guess a weld along it and then a patch over the top as kerry suggested is the go there. I'd be getting the paint stripper onto other similar spots on the boat and checking it isn't happening elsewhere. (surely paint stripper is easier than the grinder or sander?)

The transverse crack looks like it initially split and then the fine ends on the cracks have been propogating due to the boat flexing. Is it located about where the curve of the nose comes down to the flat part of the rest of the boat? You might have too much weight up the nose of the boat and the whole nose section is flexing as you hit waves or chop. Or do you put heavy things in the middle of the boat when towing, and does the trailer get a bit bendy in the middle? ???
Looking at the pictures of your trailer and the boat hanging from the ceiling, it looked a to me like the sides of the boat are bowed out a bit near where it changes from the nose to the sides of the boat. (yes? or is it just the camera angle or am I seeing things ???) If so, that would be consistent with the nose section flexing and you may need to stiffen the boat at that point.
Cheers,
Jeff
PS Might be time for a new boat to go with your new trailer. ;)

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Landy,
See the link below to a yankee site that talks about various boat repairs. The topic about 10 down the page called "aluminium jon boat repair" has the reply from Mike that talks about age hardened boats over ten years old. There are a few others I have read where they talk about the difficulties of welding very thin aluminium and another one where they suggest riveting a plate over the leak and adding sealant inside (sounds suss to me ::)). But you might find something or interest.
Cheers,
Jeff
http://pagebiz.com/bds/aluminum/repair.html

[landy1]

G'day Jeff
thanks for the sage advice, its definately had some weight up the front. the PO in his wisdom used to put the fuel cell up there in front of the old thwart seat under the deck. I can just imagine how this used to give the hull at that point an absolute pounding. Oh well with age comes wisdom. Wish id had a bit of a closer look at the rig before i bought it, might explain the cheap price ::)
All of the little horizontal splits are at the point where the hull flattens out, buggers me how that vertical split happened. I am seriously contemplating some sort of second layer for the lower 2/3rds of the bow area, getting another layer of alloy welded on, but then youve got the ribbing? to worry about.
Just thought id ask some questions while the boats stuck in the garage. when the trailers rolling and regod ill take her for a drive to a couple of welders and see what options ive got.
cheers
Mick

[landy1]

P.S. Id love a 4.25 hornet hull if anyone knows of any for sale. I could drop santa a hint. :-X
cheers
Mick

[shano]

hi all
just to confuse the issue more
you could buy a flux coated aliminum welding rod (I was given some that were 3.25 mm some years ago) could never use them propely though.
blaze

hmmm will have to check that one up lol have never heard of that before! gorilla mate this is what i thought you were talking about in reguards to an aluminium electrode! normally the wire that comes out of the mig is not referred to as an electrode as such! this is where the confussion lies! anyway all sorted out now except for this damn aluminium flux coated electrode!! we make jokes at work to the apprentices about getting some aluminium welding electrodes lol

[landy1]

OK all heres what im thinking, the long horizontal split is going to get done over with sealent and then a patch rivetted on. The little cracks im not so sure maybe weld these. Any suggestions on what to use for the patch material given that it has to be formed over a v channel in the hull. what metals are my options here. I was thinking sikaflex under the patch. As always thoughts appreciated
cheers
Mick

[landy1]

P.S. The reason im not so hot on welding it is that the metal looks extremely thin and from the other previous repairs it sems that you weld a crack then it splits beside the weld a short time later because the metal must be stressed. Maybe I just need half a dozen bilge pumps at the rear :o
cheers
Mick

[Gypsea]

Mick,

Talked to the local guru in welding and now specialising in xmas lights (old man) about the 'little'problem and the fact that when we go out fishing, more water ends up in the boat than on the outside. He suggest that to fix it properly you should take it to some welding dude, get him to radius the edge of the crack on both sides(basically drill a hole in the crack at each end to round the crack off) and then tig weld it. Tig is the prefered option here. He has 30+ years experience in boilermaking and has done hundreds of these repairs in the past on alluminium coal wagons. Understandably, these coal wagons can have the potertial to develop some pretty mean cracks and that is how they used to fix them. The old man would do it for you but we have no access these days to tig welding as we only have an arc welder and a labrador in the shed out the back.

Hope this helps.

If all else fails, donate said boat, old trailer and sacrificial chrysler engines(and evenrudes!) back to the sea and gps it for future reference as an artificial reef at x marks the spot.

Daz

[landy1]

Hmmmmmmmm, More cunning plans, from the guru himself. i can see how the drill holes would help sart the weld. Can you ask the guru his opinion on the thiness of the metal.
cheers
toomorrows got me all edgy in anticipation

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Mick,
Below is a link to a yankee product that seems to be saying it is a low temp brazing rod of sorts for aluminium, don't know if it is in aus but might give you another option.
Shano might be able to tell you if he has heard of it and if it is any good.
One of the posts on that previous link I sent you was saying that the riveted plates are a bit of a temporary solution, as they will loosen with time.
I think you are bang on with what you said about the previous welding job. Looks like your new transverse crack is about on the edge of what would have been the heat affected zone from the previous weld.
Did you have a look at the sides near the front and see if they are bowing outwards? The whole bow might be ready to hit you in the face if you nail a decent chop at speed. :-X

http://durafix.com/

Shano,
You might have to buy the apprentices a beer if you send them out for aluminium electrodes and they come back with a coil of aluminium wire for a mig and a web link to TWI. ;D
Probably safer to stick to sending them for packets of grinding sparks and 12 inch reproducing rods! Loads of fun if you tell them you want a white one, and arrange it so that the hardware store tells them 12 inch ones only come in black ;D
Cheers,
Jeff

[Gypsea]

Mick,

Consulted with guru today and said it shouldnt be a prob about the apparent lack of thickness with the ally. He seems more concerned with the fact that we have been out fishing the last umpteen times and still have no fish to show. Makes it even worse when we travel interstate and come back empty handed.
Daz:)

[landy1]

The hands might have ben empty but they sure did smell, didnt the guru like my occy
cheers
mick