Water in Fuel

[Sahara53]

Folks I have experienced water in the fuel tank for the second time last month, very frustrating, unexplainable. Following retrieval we towed back to dealer (4hrs @ 38 degrees) who sucked out over half a litre of water sitting on bottom of underfloor tank. The tank is the Bermuda 120L plastic job sitting under the floor.
Seems no possible explanation, some question over the filler point although this has been eliminated as cause. Now suggested that the cause is condensation.
This problem initially occured last Easter and we had tank removed and air dried, Yam115/2 stripped down, fuel lines all cleaned, new fuel filter w/water bowl. Boat then sat until 5 weeks ago with half fuel and kept in large farm shed for all but 3 weeks, during this time heavy plastic covered the fill point to stop any water entering this point.
We filled the tank and launched after preparation and lasted about 700m before Yam said enough. Investigation found filter bowl full of water. Dealer/builder can't explain, all fellow boaties can't explain, Being SA and having busy family life, the boat does unfortunately get lots of time to be lonely during the off season.
Does anyone have any clues?

[Grand_Marlin]

Yep, condensation.

Always keep your tank full of fuel - always... this stops (or at least dramatically slows) the condensation process when the boat is stored.

It is amazing the amount of water that can condensate in a half full tank.

Plastic tanks seem to be the worst... dont know exactly why.... but aluminium / stainless tanks seem to give less problems for underfloor tanks.

I use and swear by CAV water separating fuel filters. Have never had water go through them.

I have had water go through the more expensive Racor filters on two different boats.


Cheers

Pete

[Sahara53]

Thanks Pete this seems to be the common response whoever I askthe easiest way of controlling the situation. Does this not create a problem with stale fuel?I still am confused as to why others don't have similar problems, it seems many boats are now fitted with these fuel tanks.

[Grand_Marlin]

It would depend on each boats circumstances.

In a nutshell, the hotter the tank can get, with the least amount of fuel, the more it will condensate...

What brand of filter are you running?

Stale fuel is an age old debate.

It obviously can happen, but personally I havent experienced it.

It is the fuel / oil mixes that go off quick, but I imagine your motor is oil injected.

If you want to know any more about condensation, ask anyone from Queensland... the humidity up here makes it a big problem.

Get the water out of your tank, fill it up full and the problem should disappear.

Cheers

Pete

[2DKnBJ]

Another thing you can do is put a cup of metho in the tank.This helps the water burn if it gets past the filter and into the motor.I have been doing this for abuot 20yrs and have not had a prob with water yet.
Cheers Dazza

[Grand_Marlin]

Good idea too Dazza,

Just try and get as much water out as possible first, otherwise it will create more problems in the carby if too much water goes through.

[sf17fisherman]

yeh both the above are very corect
after use fill the tank right up and add some metho (althought not needed all the time only if your going to let it sit)
if you haven't used it for such a long time i would surgest taking it for a good run on a family day up river somewhere and use atleast 1/2 the tank then top back up with fresh and that should do the trick
apart from that maybe pump half out and use for backburning or something

many say use it in your car but i say if your not going to use it in your boat motor then why would you in your cars ;)

[billfisher]

Well it seems like too much water for condensation. I leave my tank half full months and have no trouble controlling condensation by draining the filter occasionally. I live in Sydney too and it is quite humid in the summer.
Is you tank large? Mines only 70L.
In any case I'd be wary about leaving your tank full for months. Stale fuel can destroy your engine. I would use a fuel preserver if your going to do this.
If it was an aluminium tank I would have suggested checking for pin hole corrosion on the underside. Water could then enter due to the tank sitting in bilgewater.

[Mantaray]

now why would anybody want to use a CAV filter on an outboard?

anyway there's more to this than simply condensation but when half a lite of water in a 120 litre tank starts giving problems then there's more questions than answers

[Sahara53]

Wow guys I did not expect to get such a number of replies and I thank you all very much for your input. Pete certainly I'm using the Racor filter and yep the motor is the Yam115 2 stroke oil injected. Perhaps I need to move to Qld to find a result (and better fishing water!).
We keep the boat in Ardrossan (Yorke Peninsula) as I don't have a shed here at home and so it lives in a large farm shed. Certainly we intend to get it back here in the near future and take it to Goolwa and run it on the sheltered river water. Hopefully we will enjoy a lovely family day and the kids can enjoy being towed behind the boat (after all I can't let them get in and dirty the boat!!).
My thought is that perhaps a replacement stainless steel tank might be worth the effort and expense and I'll be using a fuel conditioner from here on in. I'll keep all posted later in the year.

Peter A.

[suttos]

Hi Sahara 53,

Well they have given you all the excuses there are, and they are probably all right.

However I would like to put this too you, condensation occurs when the atmosphere is colder than the fuel this will amount to ltrs of water if allowed to sit in a cool environment. We in the southern states suffer with condensation during the winter mainly and the way to fix it is either use the boat regularily , or, keep the tank full of fuel, or drain off the water.
If you are concerned about stale fuel, use premium as it maintains its octane rating for a much longer period. Normal 91 octane unleaded is shxt, goes off like nanas nighty and is only good for fords and holdens.

In europe you cannot even buy 91 octane rated fuel our premium is their standard unleaded.

suttos

[uripper]

Sahara53
Have become the expert on watery fuel (for my rig at least) by neccessity. Your probs could be caused by many factors as mentioned in previous posts so suggest following:
1. use fuel stabiliser additive if storing longer than 3months
2. check both the motor fuel filter & inboard line fuel filter before you crank engine
3. start engine & run in a tub or leg bag for 5mins (earmuffs no good - got to get backpressure on exhaust & up to operational temp)
3. check both the motor fuel filter & inboard line fuel filter again (take off & tip out)
keep spares of both filters handy & change if think damaged - do this before each trip & reckon you'll soon work out what is your water source - good luck - Mal M

[impulse492f]

I'll through in 2 cents worth (from personal experience)

My issue was brought to my attention on New Years Eve on Botany Bay (broke down and needed to be towed back).

The guy i bought it off never ever had water in fuel problem, I bought it and within 3-4 trips out had all sorts of issues. My Haines 492F (under floor 90L) has the filler cap positioned in the tub just behind the motor (forgive me if that’s not the correct technical term). Now this cap was a metal to metal screw thread which at first i didn't even think was a problem (stupid me). As I anchored in the Bay for some good fishing, the waves were washing in over the filler cap (all day) and due to the lack of gasket/o-ring the water entered the tank in litres.

Placed a rubber o-ring on the cap and haven’t had a problem since.

The other issue i had was some loose hose clamps which both leaked fuel and sucked in water as one of the lines draped down into the bilge (depending on the pressure in the tank). I would check your breather to see if it’s clear as this will affect the pressure in your tank and tighten up all your clamps.

Just a note on the condensation issue, people are saying that plastic containers are the worst and the less fuel the more condensation you get. So why is it that a 20L plastic fuel container that I’ve had sitting in the elements (sun in the morning, shade in the afternoon) with about 8L of fuel has had next to no water in it after 3 weeks??. I'm not arguing the point I'm just noting my observations.

[impulse492f]

now why would anybody want to use a CAV filter on an outboard?

Why wouldn't you Mantaray, can you please explain?

Quote from the Bias catalogue

"C.A.V. Diesel Filter Cat. 665 BIAS Price $88.90
Agglomerator filter. Uses a replaceable paper element. Water is collected in the base & drained through a bottom screw plug. Alloy base & head. Height 197mm, maximum diameter 107mm. Maximum flow rate 45 litres per hour. Has 2 inlet & 2 outlet ports with 1/4" NPT female threads. Comes with 2 blanking plugs, hose tails are optional extras. For petrol or petrol/oil mixtures use optional extra Cat. 666P Element Kit."

[billfisher]

Impulse492f.

The problem is only with the underfloor tanks which are vented to the atmosphere. The problem doesnt arise with sealed containers.

[impulse492f]

Impulse492f.

The problem is only with the underfloor tanks which are vented to the atmosphere. The problem doesnt arise with sealed containers.


Oh yes of cause :-[ , sorry didn't think it through. So if one could seal the breather and filler then the problem might not occur? I suppose you risk popping over seals that aren't designed for the high pressure.

[Mantaray]

Maximum flow rate 45 litres per hour.

just that point alone is enough

[Grand_Marlin]

Spot on Billfisher, the breather is where the air and moisture is sucked in.... the more humid, the more moisture...simple.

Sealing the vents will most probably split the tank.

As mentioned above, hot weather/ cold weather ... who cares.... condensation is caused by the same paramaters - i.e. a quick fluctuation in temperature, resulting in water vapour forming into droplets.
The amount of water... as stated will vary from situation to situation.

From a report I read a few years back, a plastic tank exposed to the sun in Qld, quarter full of fuel, produced 10 litres of water in 2 weeks.

My point.... who cares to what "millilitre" of water is produced..... condensation is a real problem, has the potential to produce large amounts, and can be prevented / minimized by keeping tanks full.... end of story.

Mantaray, my old friend, I would ask a favour of you, for the benefit of everyone, including yourself.

Your questions are always legitimate, but double sided.... meaning that they can easily be interpreted as being cynical. They give the reader the impression that you "scoff" at what has been mentioned, hence the amount of people that retaliate against you.

For Example:
CAV Filters.
You read my post, where I stated that I have had very good success with CAV filters, which I post from my many years of experience on the water.

You state; "now why would anybody want to use a CAV filter on an outboard?"

So, should I interprate this as:
a) "What idiot would use a CAV filter on an outboard?"
or
b) I , Mantaray, personally do not understand filter systems and would like to ask Grand_Marlin some further information on why he considers a CAV filter in particular to be best for an outboard.

Take this as you will Mantaray, but for the benefit of all, I ask you to consider broadening and defining more precisely your required intentions, and outcomes from your posted comments.

Thank You,

Pete

[blaze]

from my understanding
cav have a finer micron rating, the reason for better flitration, slightly less flow because of the micron size, better able to stop water BUT there seems to be some speculation of them causing some seperation of premix fuel than the racor
So if your flow rate was too high you could run 2 filters in paralel, problem solved
been running cav's all my boating life and never been stuck any where with a fuel problem of any sort apart from a 4hp johno that the fuel pump failed on
cheers
blaze

[Mantaray]

no my question was "why would anybody want to use a CAV filter on an outboard?" that's what i said and that;s what i meant to say and it really doesn't matter much about life long experiences as these filters were never intended or designed for outboards and blaze has probably got a valid and real point.

why would you use something that was never designed or intended for outboards when there are specifically designed filters/separators made for the job that handle the job that much better and with less speculation.

oh and mr marlin i understand filter systems perfectly well, hence the question and if you read any cynical scoffing into the original questin then perhaps you are looking too hard expecting to find some hidden meaning!

so pete if a cav has a flow rate of 45 litres per hour then most medium to upper size outboards would think they were drinking though a straw with a knot tied in it! wouldn't they?

[Grand_Marlin]

Mantaray,

Firstly, read your own writing and dont twist things.

Re: Water in Fuel
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 17:30 » now why would anybody want to use a CAV filter on an outboard?


CAV filters are a fuel filter... designed for filtering fuel.
Outboards run on fuel.

CAV filters are used for their outstanding water separating ability.
If the specific marine / outboard filters are going to leave you stranded, then I am not interested in whether or not it is specifically designed for the marine environment and outboards.

I want products that I can trust my life to.

The only part of a CAV filter that is affected by the marine environment is the bolt that joins the filters together. It is cadmium plated, not stainless. A wipe of Lanolin fixes this problem

Mr Mantaray... experience is everything and only a complete fool would question this.

The advice I offered you in good faith re: your double sided, vague comments has fallen on deaf ears... so be it.

45 litres per hour flow rate refers to the peak efficiency of the filters ability to filter or separate water from the fuel.
It is not refering to the maximum amount of fuel it will allow through the filter. Hence why outboards (up to 130hp) that I have used, do not in the slightest starve for fuel.

The CAV filters are so efficient, that they separate water perfectly in situations where maximum fuel flow rates are up to 90 litres per hour. (my experience)
Racor which was specifically designed for the marine outboard with higher fuel flow rates, let me down on 3 separate occasions, with 3 different motors.

CAV filters are that efficient that they have been known to separate oil from a premix.

You will note that I asked if the motor in question was oil injected....and it most certainly is.... so no problem there.

Twin filters for higher flow rates?
Very good point Blaze.
I did this exercise on my 18ft Sharkcat that ran twin 110 Evinrudes, for exactly the reasons mentioned. If the first filter allowed any water through, then the second would pick it up.
In practice, the first CAV filter took all the water out and deposited it into the glass bowl. In two years, the second filter never received a drop of water on either motor... again with fuel flow rates of up to 90 litres per hour.

You are entitled to not use CAV filters for whatever reason you like.

Hopefully my experience has removed the speculation that your inexperience has created.

Kind Regards,

Pete

[Mantaray]

CAV filters are that efficient that they have been known to separate oil from a premix.

that's not efficient that simply probably using the wrong filter for the purpose! now any fool knows that ;D

by the way blaze was referring to filters in parrallel not series pete as you sound like to did, which by the way (series) is the recommended proper configuration for a a good filter system


45 litres per hour flow rate refers to the peak efficiency of the filters ability to filter or separate water from the fuel.
It is not refering to the maximum amount of fuel it will allow through the filter. Hence why outboards (up to 130hp) that I have used, do not in the slightest starve for fuel.

so what your saying pete is that up to 45 litres per hour the water is handled completely and at 90 litres per hour there's water in the fuel? as the filter is at twice its capacity to handle the water totally?

[Sahara53]

Well thank you everyone for your comments I am very impressed with all offerings.
Yesterday I sat and watched ET on a charter boat up in the Territory and the thought crossed my mind that perhaps owning a boat is more trouble than its worth and that maybe I should look at local cherter boats. I probably won't get to that as the family are more keen to keep a boat than I.
At this time I'm thinking of actually moving the boat on and replacing it with a Cruise Craft. The wife and I both share the thought that we now feel less confident with the boat/motor combination and perhaps it is better to simply make a change - no I'll keep the wife and change the boat that is!

Peter A

[Grand_Marlin]

Ok... I will reword that.... the filter elements supplied, for use with straight petrol on the CAV filters are not suitable for premix as they can strip oil from the premix.

So yes, right filter element for the right job.

There is a CAT element available for premix petrol.

And I am saying that the filter has been proven to work perfectly at twice its stated capacity. I also stated that there was no water going past the primary filter, in an "in series" installation. The secondary filter had not collected one drop of water in two years service.

I didnt pick up on Blazes "parallel" comment. I am assuming he meant series, as a parallel filter system for a single outboard is not really feasible anyway.
Assuming we are on the same wave length with a parallel system - i.e. running two separate fuel lines from the one tank, to two separate filters and then teeing them into one before the motor.

Anyway, the point I am would like to stress, is the fact that CAV filters are more than feasible for outboards - they are not a joke like you imply.

[blaze]

Hi Pete
yeh, I suppose I was trying to think outside the square in reguard to running paralell filters, it would be easy to do and the fuel would take the path of least resistance. Using this system eliminates the arguement of limited flow rate (I've never seen a problem). You are very correct in saying that in series is the best for filtration (I've pulled a lot of double filters off in my time in cant recall a case of water in number2, diesel mechanic by trade, too many years in the job)
cheers
blaze

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Blaze.

Sorry mate, I see where you were coming from, but I wasnt having a shot by any means. It is feasible and would correct any fuel flow problem, if it were an issue on a large outboard.

I would say a couple of 225 v6's would test them, but I also know they are fine with v6 150 yammies.

Rather tiresome trying to prove a point about CAV filters, but anyway...

If I thought Racor was a good product, then I would say so. And the only reason I dont is by getting caught out with Racor. In all 3 instances, once they were changed to CAV, without even draining the tanks, there were no more water problems.

Cheers

Pete

ps... do you fish the St Helens Game Fish Classic?

[blaze]

no probs pete, dont fish comps. prefer less crowded waters
cheers
blaze

[impulse492f]

Well I didn't expect such a "heated" reply to my question on CAV filters but I'm happy with the replies.

Grand_Marlin a question if I may, In the quote from the BIAS catalogue it states "For petrol or petrol/oil mixtures use optional extra Cat. 666P Element Kit."

Do I assume the filter that comes standard with the unit is diesel ONLY and and i need to purchase the option (Cat. 666P from above) as it states "Petrol or Petrol/Oil"

or

Can i use the standard filter, as my Suzuki 85 is oil injected?

The reason behind the question is that my rig uses a CAV system and i need to replace the filter (not sure when it was done last as I bought it in DEC 05)

1 more question, are all CAV replacement filters the same, ie do I need to match the brand with my current make or will the BIAS filter fit.

Thanks.

[blaze]

cav 296 is the element I have used for years

[MulletMan]

100% guaranteed (I think!) that it is condensation as a result of your parking the unit in the open for lengthy periods. I have a Whitley Sovereign with an under-floor 250 Litre S/S tank and it has accumulated water from the day it was new. It is raised out of the water via an air driven lifting cradle but being close to the water the tank gets pretty cold all the time.
I have demolished the entire fuel system from the cap to the carby entry (5.8 L OMC petrol) and had no luck whatsoever clearing the water. Added 5 L metho and all sorts of crap that is supposed to get the H2O out. Nuffing worked!
So what did I do? Ran the motor at least once every week for a few minutes, drained the fuel fuel water collection bowl each time and have not had water for over a year!
Or get a water seperator installed in the fuel line and make sure you get every drop!

[HarryO]

Hi guys...

Don't want to fan any flames here, but Lucas recommends
the 296 for diesel fuel only..

We used to stock/sell both cav and racor, plus ryco,
franz, dia-ichi and coopers..

We received a bulletin from the distributor about mid '01 stating
that the chemicals (sulphurs, if I remember correctly)
in petrol breaks down (eats) the medium used in
diesel filter elements (the 296), and if selling the unit for
petrol applications, an alternate element was to be used...

Harry....

[Sahara53]

Hooley Dooley never did I think that I would get the response to my question as I have. You guys have been fantastic, your wealth of knowledge and experience is outstanding and it certainly puts me into the beginners class. I take all points on board (and read with great interest the to & fro between Mantaray and Grand_Marlin). Thanks also to Impulse, Blaze and it would seem that as per PPanthers comments I just have to bite the bullet and get that bloody boat home so that I can run the motor regularly and try to actually use the thing. Tis a fine boat (GoolwaCraft Sahara 530) with a good motor and one should give it justice and that's out in the briney!
Pete I take it your up in the land of the Pumpkin Scone? We were in the GC last Oct & managed a half day charter. Darn waste of good money but still fun.

[Grand_Marlin]

Ok Guys....

I have learnt something myself today.

I have always used the CAV 296 filter. They always were designed and recommended for both petrol and diesel.

BUT

I learned today that they have changed the makeup of the filter, and sulphur in the petrol (not diesel) does apparently break down the 296 filter paper. To what extent it breaks down I dont know, but it cant be good.

The current 296 filter is now only suited to diesel.

The filter element that I would now recommended for both petrol and petrol / oil mixtures is the Ryco R2132P

Lucas, CAV, Ryco, Delphi are all good brands and would all have matching filters available as well.
Just make the seller aware of these changes, as many people who have always used the 296 still would not know.

The good thing with CAV filters is the price of the replacement element. About $7.50 and available from just about any motor associated shop in Australia.
Repco I think are a Ryco distributor.

Racor replacement elements are $60.00

Now, I only have one concern... obviously for these filters to now be suitable for petrol and petrol / oil mixes, they must have a lesser micron rating in the filter element.
I hope that it is not to the detriment of its water separating ability.

I will endeavour to get some technical information.

Thanks Guys for putting up with the bygone arguement.

I usually dont bother argueing, but this topic is important and may well be the difference between life and death one day.

Cheers

Pete

[Skipsta]

Well, this thread had made my mind up with what to do with own 'water in fuel woes" Apart from my spanking new 15hp Yammie auxillary, I'm going to get a second filter "In series" ;D which will strain every goddam mother lovin, engine wrecking, fishing trip spoilin, drop of water out of my system. :)

[impulse492f]

Well, this thread had made my mind up with what to do with own 'water in fuel woes" Apart from my spanking new 15hp Yammie auxillary, I'm going to get a second filter "In series" ;D which will strain every goddam mother lovin, engine wrecking, fishing trip spoilin, drop of water out of my system. :)

Hell I'm glad i asked the question......

Yes I'm with you, I'll be picking up a new filter (not a 296) and a second CAV unit this week.

Thanks again for your replies.

[billfisher]

How much damage can water in fuel do to an engine? I have always thought not much. The engine wll sputter to a halt , but the water is not likely to get past the carby.
Its a different story if a seal breaks and cooling water gets into the engine, especilly highly corrosive saltwater. If the crank shaft becomes pitted or rusted then it must be replaced or rebuilt or the engine will be destroyed.

[Mr__Bean]

G'Day Sahara,

Much discussion has occured on filtering out the water once it is in the tank, but little so far on prevention strategies.

Can you tell us more on how you typically store the boat and more on the location of the fuel breather?

The reason I ask is that I used to have a lot of trouble with water making its way into the tank of my inboard ski boat. Turns out my problem was due to me placing a large tarp over the boat for storage and the tarp trapping moist air in the boat.

You mention that you store in a shed, do you have a cover on the boat as well? Does the fuel vent outside the boat or under a cover? Do you store your boat with the bungs out? Have you previously been putting it away wet?


I feel these should also be considered in the interest of prevention rather than just cure.

- Darren

[HarryO]

Billfisher,
you're spot on, it won't get past the carbie, but
there-in lies the problem.

The water forms globules that will roll around
inside the fuel bowl, too big to pass thru the jets,
but will intermittantly block the passage of fuel
thru the jets and cause mis-firing, and stalling.

They won't cause further engine damage.

Most boats have their vent breathers outside the hull,
and as the boats underway,as fuel is being sucked out of
the tank, a vacuum is created at the breather.

A good dose of fresh methylated spirit (500ml-1ltr)
depending on the size of the tank, will disperse water
in equal weight, (that is, 1 ltr metho will disperse 1ltr water)
and will do no harm to the engine...

The lucas CAV fuel filter was designed for diesel off road equipment,
and was used in early boats that used similar diesel engines.
(CAT, CUMMINS, ETC)

Another issue with the cav filter unit is the glass water trap.

This is an issue with most insurance companies, and most
could VOID YOUR POLICY if a claim is presented to them
where the filter played a part in that claim.

It's recommended that policies are scrutinised.

Harry..

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Billfisher.

Too much water going through will block the carby and make the boat next to impossible to start until it is either removed by dismantling the carby, or until it evaporates out over a few days.

The Racor filters I refer to cost me an engine rebuild on a 2 year old Johnson 130.

On a trip up from Mooloolaba to Noosa Reefs, the filter let water through to the carby whilst travelling at speed. It wasnt noticeable to the ear, but by partially blocking the jets. it made the motor run lean, overheat and grab the rings in one cylinder.
Strange thing was, the overheat alarm didnt activate, even though it was functioning properly.

...and you wonder why I dont like Racor....

Harry O, I had heard the insurance thing mentioned, but have never came across an insurance company that was worried about it.

What is their big concern? Fire? Mechanical damage? Boat being disabled if fuel bowl breaks?

Would be interesting to find out exactly.

I also spoke to Racor today. The R2132P is suitable for petrol, potrol / oil mixes and diesel... it covers the three.

This is the one I will be using.

They are available from Repco (and others) Australia Wide.

Cheers

Pete

ps. I am still waiting on tech info on the micron sizes in the new vs old filters


The overheat alarms end result was and in the

[Sahara53]

Darren thanks for your comments, its incredible to me that one question could generate such interest and comment. As a start this problem first arose Easter last year when we launched the boat for the first time for some 6 - 8 weeks. During that layover period it was parked in my back yard and in the open. In my vain hope to keep the beast clean I covered it with about 5 poly tarps all held up and tied down and positioned so that water would run off and not into my pride and joy. I do not believe at any time that there was any possibility of water entering the tank system. Obviously on first launch we struggled to get it started but eventually with assistance of other boaties we idled out of the Pt Vincent Marina. About a hundred metres later the Yam changed tone, lost revs and politely died. We managed to get her restarted and away for another hundred metres before more of the same. At this point I waved the surrender flag and was promptly returned to the boat ramp (ps the tow boat asked for $50 for the privelige to which I declined to pay). The boat was taken to the Yam dealer in Ardrossan, they stripped her all down, removed fuel tank & air dried that and generally fixed her up.
From April boat sat inside large farm shed uncovered for all but 3 weeks until Xmas just gone. During the 3 weeks the fuel filler point was covered with a thick plastic as we originally thinking of this point as being suspect. On picking the boat up after xmas I took it to our holiday shack, spent 2 days preening her up ready to look good on the water, loaded all gear. On launch day we did so successfully, motored from boat ramp to shack about 1/2km, picked up the wife and then set off in sheer bliss. We motored a little short of a k when same problem arose as previous. I checked fuel bowl and there was the rotten rusty colored, water laden fuel. Towed back again and mighty upset! Towed boat 4hrs in 38 - 42 temp to Goolwa to get boat checked but dealer is unable to explain how this could possibly occur. They have even inferred human intervention and generally I don't think they handled matters all that well. To be fair they have plenty of this boat out on the waters and apparently no probs. There in lies the story, I stumble on this website and now I have caused much comment.
I hope that answers your question (in a very public servant way!!!)

Cheers
Peter A

[Sahara53]

Darren I forgot to mention: breathers on starboard side outboard well - high up. Fuel filler opposite side. Bungs always left out to allow drying and boat has always been put away in spotless condition (remember I'm a public servant!).
Boat can be seen at: www.southcoastmarine.com.au then go to Sahara.

Cheers
Peter A

[Mr__Bean]

Thanks Peter,

I think the topic creates significant interest as it can be a safety threat to any of us and usually occurs silently without warning.

Rusty colored water/fuel adds a new twist, that sounds more like you may have picked up bad fuel, whilst water in a boat tank is not that uncommon, rusty colored water is not something I would have thought you would get from an aluminium or stainless steel tank (others thoughts??).

Where did you pick up the fuel, please don't say from a 44 gallon drum on the farm, did you also pick up fuel for the car?

If the water wasn't brought in with the fuel, and you placed a second cover over the filler, then the only other entrance point is the breather.

Given that the breather is in the engine well, it is very difficult to ensure it isn't drawing in humid air each night from under the cover. My only suggestion would be to store it with plenty of ventilation whenever placing tarps/covers over the boat.

A timber plank from the top of the windscreen back to the top of the engine cowl is often used to create a bit of a tent when placing a cover on, this allows plenty of air to circulate through the boat and aids the drying process if storing outdoors.

Not much more I can add, but hope others may also have comment on this, as said it is of interest to a lot of us.

- Darren

[Panda]

Might I suggest placing a large plastic bag over the filling point and another over the breather. Make an air tight seal with a couple of strong rubber bands.
That way when the fuel expands during the heat of the day petrol vapor will inflate the plastic bag and then at night when the fuel in the tank cools and contracts it will only be sucking fuel vapor back in rather than water vapor out of the air. I have no idea if it will work and have never tried it but if I was having your problems I would be certainly giving it a go.

[Geoff_Atkinson]

Hey, ummm,

I have a tricky question.

I pulled out the aluminium fuel tanks from my boat about 6 weeks ago and cleaned all the old stale premix fuel out of them and let them dry completely (cleaned them out with Parts Cleaner). I filled the small tank (50L) and gave the boat a run, and it surprised me how much difference the fresh fuel made. I have left the large tank (160L) empty, intending to fill it when I next go fishing. Due to various circumstances, I have been unable to get out.

Do you think condensation will occur in the large tank, even if it is empty? I am in FNQ and it has been humid these last few weeks. I keep the boat in storage and it is something I have not even thought to check on. I have just written this as soon as I read the thread, without checking.

Come to think of it, how the hell would I go about checking. Would I just stick a hose or something down the filler and if it came out wet, it would have to be water I guess.

Cheers,
Geoff

[Mantaray]

well i find it totally amazing that some have been using the incorrect filter even though this has been a well known thing for quite some time. just goes to show how much experience really means especially when it's used to try and take people down. for the manufacturers to wake up and start producing petrol suitable elements for these filters has only been in recent times. before that they were simply being used in a totally incorrect environment in a outboard application and what's more many obviously never realised this.

now it doesn't matter how much fuel anybody has been able to shove through a filter as if the manufacturer specifices 45 litres an hour then this is what the filter is rated for and why anybody would want to use a 45 litre/hour filter on an outboard is still beyond me, regardless of so called experience.

if one is pushing 90 litres an hour through a 45 litre an hour rated filter then something it simply outside specifications and you do this at your own risk. but then to attempt to override the manufacturers specifications is sheer inexperience, you simply don't do that.

as for glass water trap bowls this is why they make alloy/metal bowls and it really should not be all that difficult to understand why especially in a marine situation.

the question still stands "why would anybody want to use a CAV on an outboard"

price should be the least of the considerations as why use any filter that can not technically handle a outboard properly?

[impulse492f]

well i find it totally amazing that some have been using the incorrect filter even though this has been a well known thing for quite some time. just goes to show how much experience really means especially when it's used to try and take people down. for the manufacturers to wake up and start producing petrol suitable elements for these filters has only been in recent times. before that they were simply being used in a totally incorrect environment in a outboard application and what's more many obviously never realised this.

now it doesn't matter how much fuel anybody has been able to shove through a filter as if the manufacturer specifices 45 litres an hour then this is what the filter is rated for and why anybody would want to use a 45 litre/hour filter on an outboard is still beyond me, regardless of so called experience.

if one is pushing 90 litres an hour through a 45 litre an hour rated filter then something it simply outside specifications and you do this at your own risk. but then to attempt to override the manufacturers specifications is sheer inexperience, you simply don't do that.

as for glass water trap bowls this is why they make alloy/metal bowls and it really should not be all that difficult to understand why especially in a marine situation.

the question still stands "why would anybody want to use a CAV on an outboard"

price should be the least of the considerations as why use any filter that can not technically handle a outboard properly?







........................................... :-*............................................

[Mantaray]

so what you going to do impluse use a filter that the manufacturer rates at 45 litres/hour or use a filter that's best suited to the job? at least if you go with the correct one for petrol etc then at least bother to find out what the "complete" setup is rated for! these people that expect to wack big heaps of petrol through 2 micron filters and call it experience have no idea of the specs :-*

[Mr__Bean]

Just for my clarity, was this a topic regarding water in fuel?

Or was it a pissing competition over who knows the most about filters?

Or maybe, some have just turned it into yet another "I know best session"?

- Darren

[Mantaray]

water in fuel, fuel filters go hand in hand if you were to ask me as well as any other means be it mechanical or whatever in combating the problem? but maybe you need to ask the people who actually brought up the filter issue in the first place? the worst situation is advice that is incorrect to many gullible people might actually take it as gospel!

[HarryO]

Hi Pete...

No dis-respect to your post,or previous experiences intended.

The way the Racor filter is designed, for water to pass thru the
head unit into the line toward the engine, the filter had to be
either faulty, (the lower inner seal damaged/missing), or the
wrong element fitted (lower inner seal wont contact properly),
or the unit was simply FULL of water.

If I lay the boat for more than 6 weeks, I remove the
drain screws located at the bottom of each fuel bowl
and simply drain the bowls into a clean glass jar, and do the same
with the drain bowl on the filter, and inspect for water...

If no drops are present, I pour it back into the tank..

No disposal, no wastage...

The Racor units have a high impact fuel resistant plastic bowl,
not metal, which is see thru, even tho its near impossible to
detect water by this method..

Lloyds of London will not insure a vessel with the CAV filter fitted,
could not find a reason for this, but I surmise that because its
not toughened glass, its not approved. I may be wrong.

Lloyds underwrites insurance for several other insurance
companys' marine policies, so asking the question of your
insurance company may be in order...

Better to know now, rather than later..

I know of at least one large marine dealership that still
fits, and promotes the sale of the cav units for outboards,
(go figure) despite being aware of the situation...

Ultimately, I think they know they can't be held liable,
as the Australian Maritime safety law says that, ultimately,
the vessel owner, or its nominated skipper, bears the SOLE
RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the craft is in ALL RESPECTS safe, meets
outfitting requirements, and is operated by competent persons.

Think about that for a minute.....

Harry..

[HarryO]

And another addenum to the prior post.

No filter, irrespective of brand or style, will stop water.

Thats precisely why water traps are present.

Different parts of the filter will filter at different rates,
at best around 8 microns, worst at 20 microns.

A standard Ryco Z14 automotive filter is rated 4-8 microns.

They wont stop water, either..

Fitting filters in series/paralel? Please explain!

The first will filter at, say 10 microns, and the second at the same.

What have you stopped?

Outboards (non EFI) don't have a fuel pump per se, and rely
on crankcase vacuum to suck fuel up via a one way valve
to the fuel bowl.

Fitting two filters will significantly reduce the ability to
effectively perform this task, while realising that is twice
as hard for the engine to suck pre-mixed fuel thru the
filter, as it is for unmixed fuel...

Regular inspections is the best method of preventative
maintenance.

Harry...

[impulse492f]

so what you going to do impluse use a filter that the manufacturer rates at 45 litres/hour or use a filter that's best suited to the job? at least if you go with the correct one for petrol etc then at least bother to find out what the "complete" setup is rated for! these people that expect to wack big heaps of petrol through 2 micron filters and call it experience have no idea of the specs :-*

Well due to all the filter debate (because of water issues, which I have) it would seem I could go either way CAV or RACOR as my Signature 492 as it runs at 32.2 L/PH so the CAV would be fine.

On inspecting my rig, the previous owner has gone with a RACOR (3213 Element) and it has caused nothing but trouble, I've had water through the system more then once.

I just removed the RACOR filter element and opened it up.

:-/ :'( you should of seen the mess, the inside was badly rusted on the in-coming element/casing (before the filter element) and on the out-going grid (going into the motor).

I would of gone the CAV with the 296 but due to the issue with sulphur eating away the element I'm might go the Ryco petrol element as its only about $10 apposed to $88 for the replacement RACOR one :o

Anybody know the micron of the Ryco element? as the RACOR is 10 micron's

I might buy a new CAV system for $88.90 (BIAS c/w filter) as I’m better off financially next time I need to replace the filter (Ryco petrol).

I would have thought that a purpose built Outboard filter element would use stainless steel (316) within the element. Does anybody know if the Ryco is stainless?

Now before you jump down my neck about the rusted element, the motor was fully serviced in Dec 05 and the element replaced.

Can you let us know what filter system you run, as I would be interested?

(Now what will you read into this Mantaray, how will you pull this apart, change it, move it around and imply a completely different meaning……. Waiting with interest.)


Link of interest, nice SS version of the RACOR http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=61606&start=16&posts=27

[Mantaray]

impluse, 32.2 lph based on what, that very precise? so is that full through put?

also most fuel filter element casings are steel so rust is going to be eventually expected but if that element was changed in Dec 05 (last 2 months) then you would really have to question it being rusted in this short time? in 2 months if that element is as you describe then you have much more than a water in fuel problem! a lot bigger problem and if that elemnet is rusted out in 2 months boy o boy someone has stuffed up somewhere or you have been taken for a ride!

expecting a fuel filter element to be 316? oh my! don't think many would want to fork out the $$'s and besides if you change your element based on use or at least every 12 months then there simply isn't a problem, your barking up the wrong bush if you think otherwise but what's new?

in any event harryo has covered things quite nicely, especially the water separation v filter element bit, many obviously don't understand the difference.

might add a a bit more latter on the in-line stuff?

[Skipsta]

I just bought a smaller Racor Filter 45pgh, and plan to run it in series with my big Racor filter. I have a 90hp Yammie 2 stroke (carbies) which has a maximum use of 37lph. Do you guys think this will work or will it starve the engine because not enough will get through?

I'm willing to try anything and go to any expense to stop water getting into my donk.

I've bought the unit but I'm not going to fit it till I get some constructive feedback from some of you guys :)

[impulse492f]

lol I knew you couldn't let my post go, talk about fishing, hooked you line and sinker ;D


impluse, 32.2 lph based on what, that very precise? so is that full through put?

1,000rpm 3.6
2,000rpm 6.6
3,000rpm 16.2
4,000rpm 21.0
5,000rpm 31.2
5,300rpm 32.2

Based on flow testing i did out on Georges River.


also most fuel filter element casings are steel so rust is going to be eventually expected but if that element was changed in Dec 05 (last 2 months) then you would really have to question it being rusted in this short time? in 2 months if that element is as you describe then you have much more than a water in fuel problem! a lot bigger problem and if that elemnet is rusted out in 2 months boy o boy someone has stuffed up somewhere or you have been taken for a ride!

;D again you didn't let me down, yes there is a problem here. The guy I bought it of was told the element was changed; you have to believe someone and would think the "certified" service centre would not lie. I would say the element is about 12 months old.


expecting a fuel filter element to be 316? oh my! don't think many would want to fork out the $$'s and besides if you change your element based on use or at least every 12 months then there simply isn't a problem, your barking up the wrong bush if you think otherwise

It would be a bit more pricey but hey didn't you say somewhere why skimp? The price of a Ryco is about $10, right? the price of a replacement RACOR is $88 ???? why? the inside of the RACOR looks like any other filter I've pulled apart, metal, filter element, gaskets (and they looked of poor quality) so why the extreme price? They should be SS. I would buy what worked for me and was a balance of price v quality.


but what's new?

mmmmm and


in any event harryo has covered things quite nicely, especially the water separation v filter element bit, many obviously don't understand the difference.

I agree some water will get through but isn't it some level of protection?


might add a a bit more latter on the in-line stuff?

Can't wait for it,

By the way you didn't mention your set-up?

and i still love you :-*

[Sahara53]

Mr_Bean, I purchased the fuel from the same place on both occasions and that is a local general store. It is the only fuel supply for about 20km in any direction and is used by all boaties locally and is the same fuel used in cars. This a very busy spot and am comfortable that there would be sufficient turnover through the bowser to ensure that the fuel is not stale.
I thought that my covering of the boat had been good enough - bloody hell it would take me over an hour just to set the thing free of the tarps, planks, ropes, swearing, cursing and then there was the loading up.
Panda (funny that's my nickname!) your suggestion seems worth a try. As my daughter is to study Physics and Chemistry this year, we have just discussed this as a possible project to experiment with.
Thanks folks I hope all enjoy your next boating session!

Peter A

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Harry, G'day all

You obviously know filters... thats great.
My point was that the water got through the racor filters .... 3 different NEW filters / housings... 3 different boats.... correct filter element, general usage with minimal amounts of water present in the bowl.... please explain !
as you know, water separation works on specific gravity / density .... water being more dense, falls to the bottom, hence the water in the bowl.
I never stated this specifically, probably didnt have to.... never said the element filtered the water out.... was commenting on the filter element letting water pass by it.

I really love the design and construction of the Racor housing... just a shame they arent as good as they claim.
And why CAV havent designed a poly carbonate bowl is beyond me.

Your comments on the insurance are welcomed and duly noted.
Just a question... why are they totally insurance legal on land, but not in the water?

I really dont mind what people do or what filter they buy, just offering my experience and attempting to stop the same thing happening to others.

Incidentally, the 296 that is now incorrect has never, ever broken down on me.... if it had, filter paper would be transferred through to the factory in line filter... so I really dont think it is panic stations over the 296 element.

The original 296 was designed for diesel and petrol... read this Mantaray ya halfwit.

The 296 filter is now recommended only for diesel. I am still waiting to see if the original Lucas 296 is the problem, or to see if it extends to other brands, making 296 compatibles, not that it is a great issue, because....

The Ryco R2132P is a 296 substitute that is recommended for all fuels as stated above. This is what I will be using, now that this new information is at hand.

When buying replacement filters over the years... NO ONE HAS EVER MENTIONED THAT THE 296 IS NO LONGER RECOMMENDED FOR PETROL.
Obviously the manufacturers told the dealers, but the dealers have failed to pass on the information... typical

Mantaray, if I am so wrong about CAV, and you are so right...please post some technical information to make me eat my words.

Until then...go FK yaself.

Now, I stand by my experience which says.
3 Racors, 3 letdowns, 1 motor rebuild.
Over 24 CAV's in various diesel and petrol applications, both marine and earthmoving.... NEVER A PROBLEM, never any maintenance issues with the filters, never broken a glass bowl and efinitely never any water.

I thank you Gentlemen, for a lively debate.

Pete

[uripper]

Just for my clarity, was this a topic regarding water in fuel?

Or was it a pissing competition over who knows the most about filters?

Or maybe, some have just turned it into yet another "I know best session"?

- Darren

The TV's crook & ya cruising the boards when WHAMMO ... ya stumble into a thread like this ... pure quality entertainment ... 4 days ago when I popped in 2cents worth it was very benign, now its a festering free-for-all ... $50 on the red corner ... Darren, you've called this strike perfectly ... but the weathers really crappy & everone's a little edgey ... so what the heck ... let'm go for it ... though "go FK yaself" may be gettin a bit personal ... sometimes these types of threads are funnier than "Joke of the Day".... Uh Oh here comes the Mod police ...
Happy Days - MalM

Ps - I have palpatations when my baby starts drinking more than 20 litres/hr - these guys are talking 100+ .... must go with the territorty ... the bigger the donk, the bigger the ... :)

[Mantaray]

hey pete your doing a complete job of it all by yourself the problem is you can't accept what is real and what is not. the 296 at 2 micron could only be ever designed for one thing, diesel! no brainer with that one. 2 micron if anybody would have done their homework says it all. oh apart from the 45 lph

the problem is water will go through any filter, when there is all water and no fuel, it's that simple, filters don't stop water, water separators are supposed to handle that and some manufacturers claim that a pair of filters in line with water separators will handle water twice as good a only one but then that depends on lots of things that many don't even think of.

oh and the racor design might be good just a pity they don't powder coat it better, bit of a trap that one for young players, something called experience.

you know even an old fashion 200 suzi is cabable of dragging 120 lph through a CAV296 but oh boy that is stretching the friendship, way out of it's class, sure it will do it but why would you?? why would you want to, nothing that would be based on experience thats for sure! and you should never say never, very bad mistake that one, experience or otherwise!

at least pete your willing to talk, well sort of? unlike some of the other dill brains

[impulse492f]

Incidentally, the 296 that is now incorrect has never, ever broken down on me.... if it had, filter paper would be transferred through to the factory in line filter...


I'm tempted to stay with the 296, as you stated I would expect to see debris from the paper as well.

All I kwon is that the current RACOR isn't doing a good job so a switch is needed.

Further more looking inside the 3213 filter there doesn't seem to be a lot of space between the filter wall and filter paper to allow the water to fall to the collection cup. My thoughts are that the fuel/water mix is penetrating the filament paper to early and coursing it to saturate before the water is separated.

I'm going to buy a 296 & Ryco element (as there sooooo cheap) and do a comparison.

[Grand_Marlin]

Real = Multiple Racor letdowns
Real = CAV Never letting me down, but strange things can happen, that I accept.
Real = the CAV filter 45lph, 2 micron, 10 micron, 10000000 micron or whatever, actually works in real life.....unbelievable, hey ??

Not real = ??? What dont I accept as real? You saying that I should not use CAV ?
Not real = your belief that CAV are not feasible for marine use.

Hands up who goes in and asks for filters by micron size?? (not me)
Hands up who goes in and asks for a filter to fulfill a certain requirement? (yes, me)
Hands up who expects the manufacturers / suppliers to know what they are talking about? (yes, me)

50ml of water in a Racor separator that holds about 300ml, does not constitute "full of water"

Incidentally, I have had a CAV 296 on a Bobcat that stalled the motor due to water totally filling the separator, but none went through the filter....strange, I would have thought that, the micron size aside, that pump pressure would have dragged it through... real x files stuff

Does anyone know what size water is?

Maybe we have bigger water in Tassie?

I cant comment on the Powder coating on the Racors, cos they never lasted on my boats long enough to start corroding....
Looks like they have more problems than just letting water through...

And you are dead right Mantaray... who would want to own an old 200 Suzuki?

Anyway, I'm going to talk about sharks.

Do you know anything about sharks Mantaray?
Bleeding Tuna?
Maybe you could join in.

Cheers

Pete

[Mantaray]

you talk about anything you like pete, if it's something i can comment on then i will join in, if i don't know then no won't get involved, that's the way it is, sharks or anything else feel free to talk about anything you want

and hands up those that are using filters have used filters without obviously knowing anything about them, totally amazing!

[Grand_Marlin]

Ok, well we seem to have narrowed the discussion down... thats good.

Lets agree to disagree on this then.

There are many filters available.... do your research, buy a filter that suits your purpose.

You use your filter, I will use my CAV - only one single filter, not in series or parallel.

No hard feelings Mantaray, each to their own.

Cheers

Pete

ps. I would still tow you home if your filter lets you down :P

[Mantaray]

Ok, well we seem to have narrowed the discussion down... thats good.

Lets agree to disagree on this then.

There are many filters available.... do your research, buy a filter that suits your purpose.

You use your filter, I will use my CAV - only one single filter, not in series or parallel.

No hard feelings Mantaray, each to their own.

Cheers

Pete

ps. I would still tow you home if your filter lets you down :P



Lets agree to disagree on this then.

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] I think we can agree on that one

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] No hard feelings Mantaray, each to their own.

[smiley=thumbsdown.gif] ps. I would still tow you home if your filter lets you down :P

now i can't ever see that occuring ;) well not since i took off the 296 anyway ;D but then as of last wednesday week that was 21,683 litres ago and all through a single filter system :o.

[Grand_Marlin]

;D Man that 200 Suzuki has done some hours...

Actually, this raises another point... the amount of fuel we use.

All outboards use different amounts of fuel, but in Mantarays case, if you said that a 200 Suzuki chews on average, say 50 L / hr - planing and trolling etc, (might be more / might be less, but for demonstration purposes) then that only equates to 434 engine hours, or four years use.

21,000 L is a huge amount of fuel, but we are all using (give or take)somewhere near the same amount....

And that is only for our enjoyment purposes......

[HarryO]

Gee Harry that’s a stupid statement, you should at least run a RACOR water separator to strip out as much as you can, typical statement from someone that doesn't know a boat from a rubber ducky?

(No offence Harry)


Keh???

Call it stupid, and say "no offence"?

Missed this one... hmmmmm, I must be....


I've NEVER said, or recommended "not running a water trap"

Not doing so in a marine enviroment is foolish...


Where does the boat/ rubber ducky comparison comment
come from?

Now I'm starting to really feel like a dill...

Not getting picky, Pete, I do understand where you're
coming from..

The Ryco 2132P is a cross reference no. for the cav296.

Ryco, in none of their publications, list this for petrol use.
Ryco list their petrol filters as "petrol" and their diesel
filters as "fuel"...

It would be interesting to know if Ryco would stand behind
their warranty if damage was caused from using this in a
petrol/marine enviroment... (don't hold your breath)

The suffix "P" denotes "pleated paper", not petrol.

I've used the Racor unit (3213) in 2 boats personally,
(including current vessel), and serviced literally
dozens of boats with this unit, with no water issues ever
being raised...

(never had any similar problems with the cav units, either)

You won;t find media sediment in the bowl, as the media gets
"dissolved"

The wholesale price of the 3213 element is $34.
(gonna get into strife for saying that)

The retail price of the 3213 is $50, check with (Wondall rd
Marine), for the genuine Racor element.

If you're paying more than this, I suggest you shop around.

I change mine every 2 years, mainly due to corrosion on
the exterior of the element, and ALWAYS inspect the internals,
and have not once seen any internal corrosion...

If the filter was badly corroded internally, that filter has not
been serviced in quite a while, and there is a serious water
problem...

Pete, you're spot on with water gravity, so you can see why
I don't understand why this is happening, if the units are not
faulty, and to have 3 fail is quite amazing...

Why did you not take this up with your dealer, I've found the
Racor rep to be quite intelligent, and very eager to help..

Fuel flows into the bowl first (water gets trapped) before
passing thru the element into the head unit, and onto the
engine.

as you know, there are 4 ports in the head unit.
(2 are to be fitted with plugs)

If the plumbing was incorrect, with the inlet/outlet
on the same side, on the wrong side, then water
would readily flow to the engine..

I'm not saying you've done this, but it's one explanation.

Regards, Harry..

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day again Harry,

The biggest hurdle in this debate is the lack of available technical information.

I spoke with a Ryco Engineer in Melbourne today and found out a few more interesting things....

He says:

All Ryco filters are capable of handling diesel, petrol or petrol / oil mixes.

Some brands are lesser quality than others, and this is where any problems have come from, including water transfer and filter paper breaking down.

The "siliconisation" of the filter paper is what gives the best water protection. Whilst all filter elements will let water through, the quality of the silicon treatment is what sheds the water and creates a "water tension" barrier against it going through.
Hence the most likely explanation for the Racor filters letting me down, and also why the Bobcat filter didnt let water through.

None of these implied problems have occurred with a Ryco filter.

296 filters stripping oil from the petrol / oil mix is an old wives tale.

The CAV brand 296 filter elements are apparently the ones that are now recommended for diesel only, due to the potential breakdown of the filter paper due to sulpher in the petrol (funny that, I thought diesel had a higher sulphur content than petrol...).

CAV branded genuine 296 filters do not appear to be readily available (dont confuse the cav housing with the filter element... cav housing is fine)

He thoroughly recommends CAV for use in the Marine environment.

Lucas / Delphi filters are one and the same company, but he did not specifically know whether they had any break down problems with the paper element in their 296 filter. He had not heard of any.

And.... I forgot to ask him specifically about fuel flow ratings :(

The Ryco R2132P is a cross reference to the 296, but he states unequivically - different company, different manufacturing techniques, better quality.

Harry, I know you are not picking, and I appreciate your comments.. you are trying to help by pointing out possible causes.... you sound like you are a mechanic?

Trust me, I am no idiot (contrary to Mantarays belief) when it comes to setting these things up... they were all correctly installed.
First one I fitted myself on a 189 Yalta with a 90 Johnson Oceanrunner. Let water through and stalled the motor. Wouldnt start until dried out.

Second one (two filters actually) - dealer fitted to a 6.2 Kevlacat with twin 75 Mercs, running separate fuel systems. Let water through, stalled both motors... got one motor going to get us home... other wouldnt start until dried out. Replaced with CAV, no further problems.

Third one, 5.6 Hydrofield, fitted with a Johnson 130. This is the one that stuffed the motor. I was going to replace the Racor and didnt... bad mistake

Never again.....

In all honesty, I never thought of going direct to Racor.... Certainly gave the Supplier heaps, but to no avail. They supplied a replacement filter element, but I sold that boat (Yalta) not long after....

The Kevlacat and Hydrofield were both bought privately, second hand, so a bit hard to chase compensation.

Anyway, just what I had found out from a reliable source.

Cheers

Pete

[impulse492f]

HarryO,

I owe you a public apology; I never meant to insult your much appreciated comments. I was in a pissing contest with Mantaray. I used your comment and quoted it as Mantaray would have "Out of Context".

I have learnt my lesson and pissed off someone that can add vital insight into things that other can learn from.

Please accept my apology.

[impulse492f]

Back onto the subject.

I spoke to the BIAS people yesterday and there thoughts are go with the CAV system but use the Ryco filter as 2 micron "might" cause a problem and why buy the $50 bucks (I said $80 :-[) for a filter when the Ryco’s are $16 (BIAS price but cheaper elsewhere).

I bought the CAV with the Ryco element. The Ryco stats on the box (Fuel) and i also recall as Grand_Marlin said the filter itself had "Silicon Treated" printed on the casing.

I’m going out today to give it a little test (side note I’m trying to tune the carb’s on the DT85 2 cylinders are a damp black colour and 1 cylinders is washed with fuel with no carbon).

So I’m happy with my CAV decision and would like to thank all for the comments and suggestion.

[Mantaray]

HarryO,

I was in a pissing contest with Mantaray.

no that's your attitude problem. but at least when you open your mouth about something have something positive and constructive to say instead of trying to selectively smart. that's the problem with people with double standards impluse

[Mantaray]

and pete don't start this continuing ongoing ridiculous garbage, since when did i call you an idiot? come on man if you are that insecure and have to continuously throw in crap like some of the other wacks then your no better than them.

[propdinger]

lmao i love that you are never in the wrong mantaray

[Mantaray]

when i'm in the wrong buddy i'll tell you so but when wacks start opening their mouth without their brain engaged then they need to realize this. much the same as you a totally irrelevant and useless remark you've just added there that only aligns yourself with the dill brains who have a selective mind set attitude

yeah dill brains like you call it banter but you wouldn't know what banter was so when will the likes of you actually wake up to yourself?

[Mr__Bean]

yeah dill brains like you call it banter but you wouldn't know what banter was so when will the likes of you actually wake up to yourself?

And the crowd waves as Mantaray makes his way to the Sin Bin......

- Darren

[Mantaray]

like i said mr bean some of the insidious unwarranted stupid behaviour is totally irrelevant and unwarranted and yet people continue to be dill brains and the likes of you start calling for the sin bin, how stupid, one sided and selective can some be?

this rot needs to be stamped out and unless you are completely one sided then it's obvious who to start with, not your obvious mr bean but the real obvious, those that try to be smart wacks simply and only for that purpose

the inciting behaviour for no apparent reason by some simply has to be stomped out and this should be directed to those that engage in low life totally irrelvant jibes that serve no purpose other than attempting to incite

so mr bean unless you know what equally is then your comments are totally useless, irrelevant out way out of line! all your doing is to continue the inciting dill brain trend that has obviously taken off here in plague proportion

[propdinger]

so if we are all dill brains got to a site that is better and dont let the door hit you on the way out

;D ;D

[Mantaray]

so if we are all dill brains got to a site that is better and dont let the door hit you on the way out

;D ;D


no not all are dill brains but obviously you like to be a little emotive and over the top but if in fact you do consider yourself a dill brain then i wouldn't be making a noise about it, one way or another your type of insidious stupid do as we say not as we do behaviour is going to take a dive and will probably be a bit of a test for open minded common sense people

it's the likes of yourself who when confronted with your own garbage have the audacity to sit back and say, Who me??

[Mr__Bean]

I am sure there are many members here that would donate some WD40 or CRC if we need to oil the hinges on that door.

- Darren

[Mantaray]

looks like we might have to start calling this for exactly what it is, harrasement! now my question is does this site condone and turn a blind eye to harassment as harassment people is what this is starting to become, very selective and extremely deliberate harrassment

as mentioned this will obviously be a real test for open minded common sense people, not donkey voters

[propdinger]

so why is it that all the people you seem to have problems with that in your words arent open minded never have problems with any other members???

calling people dill brains and donkey voters you only make yourself look stupid mate

[Mantaray]

well if people like the likes of you had open minds as well as common sense then we wouldn't find you continuously trying to harass, would we? that's exactly what you are doing because the likes of you have this selective mind set , you know people like you have a real problem admiting you are wrong and have to keep up this continuous insidious type stupid behaviour to satisfy their alter ego or what ever it is that drives you

well time has come to see just how the likies of you are handled, the type that has to continuously spit back for no apparent reason other than your own insecurity and stupidity

and i'm going to firmly stand my ground on this one as it has become apparent that no matter what i say there is this core group of dill brains who think it is an open invitation to incite and harass, so your obviously one of these

[impulse492f]

;D you have to laugh, Mantaray u are one of a kind. You talk about wasted posts. If one goes over the amount of posts from you in this thread that has no content geee, why don't you take some of your own medicine?

Any-ways,

Took the Sig out with the new CAV unit (Ryco filter) and all is go, no fuel starvation and clocked the quickest time to date. 60.4 kph.

No water in the catchment bowl.

All is good, thanks to those who count ....... :P

[Mantaray]

that's right impluse this is becoming a wasted post (pity) but there might be a little pain before there's some responsible gain, anyways consider yourself in the same boat, your inciting and abnoxious attitude stands out a mile

[impulse492f]

that's right impluse this is becoming a wasted post (pity) but there might be a little pain before there's some responsible gain, anyways consider yourself in the same boat, your inciting and abnoxious attitude stands out a mile


and your the skipper........ :-*

[HarryO]

Andrew,

Accepted. I understand, now...

Where has the water gone, now, that its not being caught
in the trap?

Skipsta, any secondary filter will effectively require an
increased effort on behalf of the engine to draw fuel up
to the engine...

This shouldn't be a problem for the Yammy 90..

If it makes you feel more confident in doing so,
then go for it.

Pete, ... yes, amongst other things...

Spend my days avoiding being stalked by ex-customers..
(even tho I understand that they mean well)


Harry

[Mantaray]

so Harry what's your opinion on primer bulb placement? always lots of differences on this one for lots of different reasons even from the manufacturers especially with regards to contamination, so do you push it or do you pull it?

one other thing Harry i suppose the relationship between the tank, filter and motor would have a lot to do with the effort in drawing fuel? some boats the difference can be quite a lot i would imagine?

[impulse492f]

Where has the water gone, now, that its not being caught
in the trap?

Well i think I suffered from the condensation issue which was raised way back. I placed a cup full of metho in the tank yesterday, filled her up this morning.

I believe the RACOR bowl caught the last lot (before the CAV went on) but really struggled as the filter element was at least 12-18 months old.

I just covered her for the night (going out again tomorrow) and checked the bowl, there was about 5 ml.

It seems that a week sitting with 1/2 tank (45L) gathers a lot of condensation. I'll check next week and see if it returns.

[Skipsta]

Thanks HarryO, I couldn't wait for a response, so I just installed it anyway. Going for a run down the Pin tomorrow morning, si I'll see if there is any starvation issues. I'll post some pics of my filter set up tomorrow :D

[Weltevrede]

Actually I'd agree with Mr Bean comments about getting away from the topic.

Having read many of his replies on various topics Mr Bean obviously has an intellectual level far exceeding some those who still walk with their knuckles dragging on the ground.

Sticking to the topic is all the guy asked for.

Mr Bean, look forward to your highly intelligent replies. like your humour as well.

Steve

[blaze]

Got a mate running a black max merc 225 with a twin cav filter housing with 296 filter elements and he has no starvation problems and drives the boat hard, uses an average of 180l a trip. This is a pro boat so it spend a lot of time on the water.
He changes the filter elements every 12 months and drains the filters about once a month. In real life this is what happens, no theories, no debates.
cheers
blaze

[Grand_Marlin]

;)

[FNQCairns]

I wouldn't run a racor simply because I dont like giving money away for no real gain. The cav has a minor degree of trouble with petrol because the filter glue is not guaranteed for use with petrol. So dont run a cav element filter 3x longer than a filter should be run.
The 296 was designed to filter oil, at that it does as good or better than any other filter designed to do the same.

Diesel is oil but for some reason it gets though and the engines run 8-)

Take it from someone who has cut a racor apart to compare, there is nothing better/best in a racor, apart from possibly the glue (probably the same stuff anyway. The racor is entirely average as a filter but the price ain't!
It is in effect nothing but a 296 filter wrapped in steel with a bowl at the bottom! Crikey that free space must cost a lot to manufacture.

The 296 is the filtering standard that all other filters designs work to for typical applications and yes that means marine also because apart from in our minds and in regulation the ACTUAL job the filter media does is exactly the same!! be it car/truck/plane/boat/dune buggy.

The day a 296 starts filtering out diesel oil is the day I start to worry over 2 stroke oil being filtered out also.

cheers fnq

[Grand_Marlin]

Onya FNQ Cairns,

Onya Blaze,

Finally someone to back up what I said.....

[Mantaray]

ah well a couple of bad peas in the pod don't make the rest bad just turf the bad ones :D

now maybe we should move on to the urban myth about water condensation in the fuel, don't happen folks, well not enough to be any sort of problem! you've all been duped. don't you get annoyed when people throw up urban myths that can never expalin the situation ;D

[Grand_Marlin]

:-? You must be on drugs....

[billfisher]

So where is all the water coming from Mantaray? I just drained my filter bulb and it was full of it and this is a regular occurance. Im sure its the same for other members. I don't get a water problem with the sealed portable tanks.

As long as I keep draining the filter the problem is under control. I have only had water get though to the motor if the bulb has been full of water. This is with a Racor filter.

[Skipsta]

Here here. I suffer from small amounts of water constantly getting into my fuel system. I have had the tank pressure tested, the inlet o ring is not compromised. No water is getting in through the breather. The water fairies aren't putting it in there ;D. I say someone asks Dr Karl ;)

[Mantaray]

now we might have to get a bit techncial here but lets see if some can think through this ;D

how much consdensation can a cubic metre of air hold? anybody ;) how about you pete ::)
now how much fuel in a cubic metre ?
then we want to know what size tanks we are dealing with ?
what is required to produce condensation (that's water by the way pete :o) now is that going from hot to cold or cold to hot and does this require sudden drop/increase in temperature ;D

now if all this condensation stuff is temperature related then all those aeroplane things should be all falling out of the sky? right?

or wait for it :P

now just maybe you are getting your bad load of water from another source ??

my this is fun stuff hey :D

[Grand_Marlin]

Planes will never fall out of the sky.... they all use CAV filters ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

And if you are comparing Jet A-1 to regular unleaded.......

[Mantaray]

no talking about condensation, doesn't matter what's in the tank, condensation is simply condensation, Jet A-1 or otherwise, has to do with temperature but some very specific temperature conditions

[impulse492f]

now we might have to get a bit techncial here but lets see if some can think through this ;D

how much consdensation can a cubic metre of air hold? anybody ;)


30C/86F 30 grams/cubic meter
20C/50F 17 grams/cubic meter
10C/13F 9 grams/cubic meter


now how much fuel in a cubic metre ?

A cubic meter equals 264 gallons of liquid volume, therefore:

A 200 gallon tank = 0.76 cubic meter.

At 86F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 22.8 grams of water vapor, or 0.81 oz.

At 50F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 12.92 grams of water vapor, or 0.46 oz.



what is required to produce condensation

In order to condense water out of the atmosphere a surface must be much colder than the air.

Any other quizz Mantaray.

[FNQCairns]

Hi Mantaray, don't discount diffusion within your model, that 1m3 of air will be forced to stay in equilibrium with the air outside on an unclosed system, so in effect over a 4 hour period of condensing the mass of water absorbed could be VERY much larger, than what the original volume of air contained.
Then multiply that be 14 days of cycling between launches/trips. I am in no way saying that any of the air was also displaced (although some must due to temp variations), just the water it contained in one direction only within this continual physical process.

Most water I believe finds another way in but any boat in the backyard exposed to rapid temperature extremes is begging for condensate.

cheers fnq

[impulse492f]

Hi Mantaray, don't discount diffusion within your model, that 1m3 of air will be forced to stay in equilibrium with the air outside on an unclosed system, so in effect over a 4 hour period of condensing the mass of water absorbed could be VERY much larger, than what the original volume of air contained.
Then multiply that be 14 days of cycling between launches/trips. I am in no way saying that any of the air was also displaced (although some must due to temp variations), just the water it contained in one direction only within this continual physical process.

Most water I believe finds another way in but any boat in the backyard exposed to rapid temperature extremes is begging for condensate.

cheers fnq


:o WOH

[Skipsta]

I know it isn't getting in at the Bowser, I use a water separating fuel filler.

Anyways as I stated earlier, I fitted a second filter and gave it a good run today down at the Pin and ran like a scalded cat. Here is a couple of pics. ;D

If you look close, you can see a few mls of water in the main filter >:(

[Mantaray]

that's very good impluse you are a lot clever than i first thought ;D now teach the unteachables why condenstation is a way way overdone myth :D go to man and don't fall for the good old double shuffle two step

[Sahara53]

Folks lets all keep it civil, Mantaray please I have read all the opinions but I go back to the original question - where the hell do you suspect that my boat has picked up sooooo much water if not condensation? I'm open to all suggestions and have now tasked my daughter to ask her Chem/Physics teacher.

You all have provided some very interesting (and amusing) reading. I am but a novice at all of this and am very surprised that so many craft could be fitted with inboard tanks that then maybe subject to water from some source.

My problem is simple I am getting water and large amounts of it into my underfloor fuel tank and even though it might be unlikely, I'm not getting the opportunity to catch a feed of King George!

Over to you, I'm off to dreamland.

Peter A

[Mr__Bean]

I know it isn't getting in at the Bowser, I use a water separating fuel filler.



G'Day Skipsta,

Can you give us some more info on the fuel filler, never heard of them and might be interested in one.

- Darren

[impulse492f]

I read in another post from here (can't find it again) that had a problem with the carpet around the filler. It was cut to close to the filler and the cap was bitting down on the carpet instead of the o-ring on the cap and leaving 1-2mm.

Thats if your filler is on thw floor?

[Mantaray]

sahara; if you are getting that much water large amounts that can not be explained based on condensation which by the way has to have exactly the right type of conditions to produce then you do have to look elsewhere.

so do boats only have this problem?

[Mr__Bean]

Hmmmm,

Not only boats, aircraft have to constantly monitor and drain water from their tanks, fuel distributors constantly filter it out. Next time you are at an airport waiting for your flight look out and have a closer look at that fuel truck filling up the plane, it is basically a filtering plant on wheels.

Below is a link to an article from the University of Utah, it is written around fuel contamination in farm machinery (prolly not much difference to a boat stored in a farm shed) that has an interesting opening to the section titled Water Contamination:

"Water contamination is primarily a result of condensation within the tank, be it bulk storage
or vehicular. Inability to keep tanks full at all times tends to create condensation when
temperature changes occur."

Here is the complete document: http://extension.usu.edu/files/agpubs/fm16.pdf

But hey, what would they know..........

- Darren

[Skipsta]

Impulse, it was an earlier post of mine you wer referring to re the marine carpet. Read it here.
http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/yabb2/YaBB.cgi?num=1129418595/0

Mr Bean, the funnel is a Mr Funnel. Quicksilver stock it, I bought it from Karee Marine at Rocklea, about $25 from memory. I don't put a drop into my tank without it. (Pic attached)


Regards

Skipsta

[Skipsta]

Here are a few pics re how water WAS getting into my fuel. The probelm has since been rectified by AMM.

1st photo - As floor filler looked. (I thought things were aok for quite a while.) One can see the fuel stains around the cap where fuel has been splashing out during travel when the tank was full.

[Skipsta]

2nd photo, shows the tank cap off and the carpet lifted up from where it was installed flush around the filler.

[Skipsta]

3rd and final pic, shows the fuel cap back in, showing how the carpet is riding up the sides. I obviously didn't have it like this when I was wondering how fuel got in. Just a pictorial representation of what the problem was ;). This caused a HEAP of water to get, both when water came in through the scuppers and when I washed the boat down. Keep an eye out for this sort of thing fellas with water probs, always a chance ;)

[billfisher]

Skipsta,

Thanks for confirming what we already know (Mantaray excepted).

[Mantaray]

Skipsta,

Thanks for confirming what we already know (Mantaray excepted).

(Mantaray excepted) totally uncalled for and what is starting to make some of you fools appear you can't keep your mouth shut for the want of trying. it is stupid iditoic irrelevant comments like that from the likes of people like you that ask the question just how stupid are you?

[Mr__Bean]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

- Darren

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Skipsta,

Just looking at the pics.... the way that filler is sitting, it looks like they never had anything under it to seal it??
We use 2 or 3 mm cork gasket to seal fuel fittings and dont get any leaks.

Jut one thing I will mention that people may or may not know... dont ever use silicone to seal fuel fittings. Most silicones "melt" in fuel, creating a sticky mess that invariably ends up in the fuel lines.
Other silicones (One Selleys Product that Selleys recommended for fuel) do not melt in fuel, however they do absorb fuel.
I used it to seal in a fuel filler (on their recommendations)
When you seal something with a bed of silicone, you always end up with a bead of silicone that pushes out when you fasten down any fitting. This bead on the inside of the tank absorbed fuel until it was heavy enough to break away under its own weight.
It ended up blocking the fuel pickup in the tank when we were 20 miles from shore and the weather had turned to crap.
After a lot of trying, I managed to dislodge it by back blowing down the fuel line. It took several goes as it was stuck in hard.
I rang Selleys about it ... their answer? .... didnt want to know about it in the slightest..... typical.

Sahara, maybe it will be a process of elimination as well.
It is a known fact about tanks "sweating" and causing condensation.
Tanks obviously create the perfect conditions for condensation.
Eliminate this first, and hopefully the problem wil go away.
If there are no other leaks in the tank and the filler caps are sealing correctly then I honestly think condensation is your answer.

Service stations all have water filtration as well, so it shouldnt be that.

I assume you are filling at a service station? or are you using a portable filling system such as 20 litre drums or a tank mounted on the back of a ute?
Using these is a sure fire way of introducing water to your tank.

Cheers

Pete

[seatime]

It doesn't get that humid in Ardrossan does it?
It may not be a simple task but you may be able to extend your breathers and filler cap. Inbuilt tanks where the filler and breathers are close to the tank seem to suck up more moisture laden air.
Or even try insulating and lagging the filler pipe and fuel tank, this will even up the temp differences and reduce sweating. Just a thought, Steve

[billfisher]

(Mantaray excepted) totally uncalled for and what is starting to make some of you fools appear you can't keep your mouth shut for the want of trying. it is stupid iditoic irrelevant comments like that from the likes of people like you that ask the question just how stupid are you?

Mantaray your the one who has continually said that condensation in fuel tanks is an urban myth, without offering anything to back up the assertion. You have done nothing to refute the evidence Skipsta , myself and others have quoted.
Now who is the one making stupid idiotic irrelevant comments?

[Grand_Marlin]

Hi Skipsta,

With your filtering funnel, do you get much / any water in it when filling from the service stations?

Cheers

Pete

[impulse492f]

Thanks for the photos Skipsta, I've found that I'm constantly on a learning curve whenever I'm working on or driving the boat.

As I stated earlier, my initial problem was a missing rubber 0-ring on my filler cap, fixed but still have some minor water issues that should be addressed via a new CAV filter monitoring the water trap.

[Mantaray]

(Mantaray excepted) totally uncalled for and what is starting to make some of you fools appear you can't keep your mouth shut for the want of trying. it is stupid iditoic irrelevant comments like that from the likes of people like you that ask the question just how stupid are you?

Mantaray your the one who has continually said that condensation in fuel tanks is an urban myth, without offering anything to back up the assertion. You have done nothing to refute the evidence Skipsta , myself and others have quoted.
Now who is the one making stupid idiotic irrelevant comments?


now the first thing you need to do is cut the chase with the smart $rse and irrelevant stupid comments, there is absolutely no call for your stinking attitude with regards totally uncalled for remarks so separate your stinking attitude and leave your sh$t at the door.

and for what you have quoted? then where is your evidence. now water condensation is a myth as there is no way large amounts of water as people asert can be due to condensation and what might be better for you to do is show that it can occur, you know prove your point!

water would have a lot more chance in the volumes reputed to come in via other sources

[Grand_Marlin]

I wish I could find a report I read on condensation a couple of years back... I think it may have been in Trailer Boat Fisherman Magazine.

A regular writer (from Townsville I think) sat a 20 litre portable tank out beside his shed to deliberately see what happened re: condensation.

The tank:
had about 2 litres of fuel in it,
was covered it in black plastic to stop any rain water getting in,
had the filler cap on, but loose.

He reported that in 1 month, it collected 10 litres of water.

[impulse492f]

I wish I could find a report I read on condensation a couple of years back... I think it may have been in Trailer Boat Fisherman Magazine.

A regular writer (from Townsville I think) sat a 20 litre portable tank out beside his shed to deliberately see what happened re: condensation.

The tank:
had about 2 litres of fuel in it,
was covered it in black plastic to stop any rain water getting in,
had the filler cap on, but loose.

He reported that in 1 month, it collected 10 litres of water.



I have read the same sort of thing a while back but can't find it again. It was referring to drag cars (not methanol).

I have a spare 20L can, I'm going to do just that and see what happens. I'll report back weekly.

[Mr__Bean]

It doesn't get that humid in Ardrossan does it?


Here are the humidity figures for Ardrossan, see below:

- Darren

[Mantaray]

A regular writer (from Townsville I think) sat a 20 litre portable tank out beside his shed to deliberately see what happened re: condensation.

The tank:
had about 2 litres of fuel in it,
was covered it in black plastic to stop any rain water getting in,
had the filler cap on, but loose.

He reported that in 1 month, it collected 10 litres of water.



so can't see what sort of a comparison that would be? who covers their boat in black plastic and deliberately leaves the fuel cap on but loose ::) the general idea is to make sure the filler cap is secure and tight? well normal people do. why not simply close the tank filler properly and sit the tank in the sun?

[Skipsta]

I'm no expert by any stretch Mantaray, but I think the point of having the filler cap on but loose (or alternatively leaving the breather loose) is to match what happens in an inbuilt alloy tank. They are not a closed system, they have an external breather that prevents the tank from buckling/splitting under great pressures.

If you were to keep the portable tank fully sealed, of course no water can get in, but as the air is full of water, especially in QLD, surely it goes some way to explain how water gets into a tank. Air sucked in containing water, water condenses, falls into fuel, dry air flows back out?

I know my system. With all my precautions and contingencies, water is still getting in, albeit in much smaller amounts. Where is it coming from, if not from condensation?

[Skipsta]

Hi Skipsta,

With your filtering funnel, do you get much / any water in it when filling from the service stations?

Cheers

Pete

Pete, not as yet, I think dodgy fuel is a bit of a rarity.... But it does happen. I know that I got a very bad does of fuel in my Rodeo's fuel tank (At least 5 litres) which wrecked my fuel pump.

There is a small reservoir of about 50mkl in the bottom which is where the water would collect, I just chuck this bit containing water/fuel whatever. Haven't actually seen any water in it yet though :)

I am becoming a bit paranoid with my boat. You all probably would too, if it broke down 3 times out of 4 trips ::) I have promised my wife I am not taking my son out in the boat until I have had a DOZEN motor trouble free trips. Just can't risk it.

I now have 2 engines, 2 batteries, 2 radios, 2 fuel filters, 2 fire extinguishers. At least I know I can get my arse back home ;D

[seatime]

As Mr Bean's chart shows the highest humidity in Ardrossan is late night and early morning when temp differences are least.
During the day when the temp differences are highest the humidity is at it's lowest, and this is when the air is being sucked into tanks.
If you live in Qld you will realise that our particular brand of humidity can live a life of its own sometimes.
There is still plenty of moisture laden air in Ardrossan in summer however.
I like the expansion chamber idea using a bag around the breather vent that was mentioned earlier. regards

[Grand_Marlin]

Well, lets get this sorted.

Get the relative humidity
RelHum = relative humidity in %

Get the air temperature
Tcenti = air temp in degrees C

Calculate the saturation vapor pressure Esat
Esat = 6.11 * 10# ^ (7.5 * Tcenti / (237.7 + Tcenti))

Calculate the vapor pressure Evap
Evap = (RelHum * Esat) / 100

Calculate the dewpoint temperature K
Kdpoint = (-430.22 + 237.7 * Log(Evap)) / (-Log(Evap) + 19.08)
Add the sign
If Kdpoint >= 0 Then dpsigns = "+"
Or Else
dpsigns = "-"

Working through the equation, you will see that a typical Brisbane day works out at a dewpoint of around 22 degrees.

So, how do we achieve a dew point of 22 degrees in a fuel tank in the middle of the Australian Summer?
Easy..
The evaporation of fuel.
Now, at standard temperature and pressure (STP), (STP = 1 atmosphere at 25 degrees) unleaded fuel will readily evaporate. (additives are added to increase evaporation point in hotter climates, but this example is designed to be all encompassing)
The evaporation causes cooling (the same as the wet hessian bag over the meat safe when camping)
Now, everyone would have washed their hands in petrol and noticed how cool it feels??

Cooling by Evaporation - the cooling effect is not a constant temperature, but is easily less than 22 degrees, more like 10 - 15 degress (estimate)

So, when the direct sun temperature is approximately 50 degrees, it causes the tank to expand (everyone has seen / heard the mower fuel tin when left in the sun?)
The expansion of the tank draws in humid air through the breather.
The hotter the day, the more expansion, the more evaporation of the fuel, the more rapid the evaporative cooling effect, and due to this evaporative cooling, condensation is forming instantly as this process occurs. The condensing effect is not directly related to the temperature of the day, but the higher the temps and the higher the humidity, the worse the effect. (hence the difference between Qld & SA)
In a sealed tank without a breather, the tank expands but does not keep creating condensation on an ongoing basis, as new moisture is not introduced regularly. (same with motor cars with positively pressurised tanks, portable sealed plastic boat tanks - they can only condensate the immediate moisture in the air space available, which is miniscule)
When the ambient temperature drops, or even fluctuates, the tank breathes air, constantly, just as we do - in / out / in / out. Keeping in mind that the evaporated fuel is constantly condensating any new moisture in this air, it doesnt take long to build up a mass of water.
The higher the fluctuation in the ambient temperature, the more breathing the tank can do - the more condensation collected.

Rapid evaporation can actually freeze water vapour at 14 degrees (ever heard of frozen carbies in older planes / racecars, vehicles operated in the Antarctic?)

Now, add FNQ Cairns's diffusion theory, and the facts stated by Impulse 492f on how much water vapour is held in the atmosphere (Humidity)(assuming calculated at 100%), combined with the unlimited breathing ability of the tank, and the fact that water is condensating instantly due to the evaporative cooling effect, then it is possible to assume that:
An average, half full 200 litre tank could condensate 8 mls of water per full breathing cycle, given that a tank may breathe fully 2 - 3 times a day, given location and changing sun / shade conditions.
This works out at a very real 112ml to 168ml per week... this ties in with most people constantly having "a little bit of water in their fuel"
If the tank is kept full, it reduces the breathing ability of the tank and virtually reduces this equation to nil water.

Skipsta just answered your questions, the portable tank filler was left loose and covered in plastic to simulate the worst available conditions in a breathable or unsealed tank. Nobody leaves their sealed tanks undone when stored - it was done for demonstration purposes.
Any unsealed tank (ie tank with breathing capabilities, boat or otherwise) is succeptible to high levels of condensation.

Water can come from other sources, I agree, but this should answer your questions of how / why / when condensation forms in unsealed tanks.
Any

I hope this gives you enough technical backup to prove why condensation can be a problem with unsealed tanks.

Regards

Pete

[impulse492f]

Well I have no further comments. :o

[finga64]

why not put a moisture trap on the breather pipe?
You know, just like a moisture trap on an air compressor.
Then it's virtually a closed system.

ie http://www.mit.edu/people/robot/diesel/index.html

[Mantaray]

now we might have to get a bit techncial here but lets see if some can think through this ;D

how much consdensation can a cubic metre of air hold? anybody ;)


30C/86F 30 grams/cubic meter
20C/50F 17 grams/cubic meter
10C/13F 9 grams/cubic meter


now how much fuel in a cubic metre ?

A cubic meter equals 264 gallons of liquid volume, therefore:

A 200 gallon tank = 0.76 cubic meter.

At 86F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 22.8 grams of water vapor, or 0.81 oz.

At 50F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 12.92 grams of water vapor, or 0.46 oz.



what is required to produce condensation

In order to condense water out of the atmosphere a surface must be much colder than the air.

Any other quizz Mantaray.



[smiley=oops.gif] my oh my oh my impluse you might not have any further comments but i got one for you ;D somebody has just pointed out where you got the above from

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

so why didn't you put the infomation forward impluse [smiley=leer.gif] what not the right outcome ;D

[familyman]

What about a flexible breather like a corrugated hose of some kind that you could seal off with a valve but still have enough stretch to take up the increase in volume of a warm tank?????
Hmmmmmm ::)
cheers jon

[Skipsta]

Skipsta just answered your questions, the portable tank filler was left loose and covered in plastic to simulate the worst available conditions in a breathable or unsealed tank. Nobody leaves their sealed tanks undone when stored - it was done for demonstration purposes.

Water can come from other sources, I agree, but this should answer your questions of how / why / when condensation forms in unsealed tanks.

I hope this gives you enough technical backup to prove why condensation can be a problem with unsealed tanks.

Regards

Pete



I appreciate the tech stuff Pete :)

But I think you'll find I always agreed with this theory and my previous post was trying to (very roughly) explain to others why the experiment was done the way it was and how this relates to built in tanks in our boats. ;)

Skipsta

[Mantaray]

skipsta; i don't think there has been any argument that some water is from condensation just that some have the volume of water from this source as all up the creek. if you have large amounts of water all the time then it is more than condensation, if a good filter can't hande it then it is more than condensation

[seatime]

Grand_Marlin,
I'm no chemist and I'm not wanting to correct you but I think you mean boiling off and not evaporating. Some petrols, benzene etc (highly flammable) will start vaporising somewhere around -14 C (not sure but well below 0 C) depending on additives. It is this chemical process which keeps the fuel cool not evaporation.
As you will know diesel requires heating to get to this state.
The end result of water in your fuel is the same still. regards Steve

[Grand_Marlin]

Hey Skipsta....
'tis all cool.... you just interpreted what I said a bit wrong...

More precisely it should have read "Mantaray, Skipsta has answered your questions on the portable tank experiment.........."

You had answered his questions precisely. I made reference to you in my post, as there was no need to add what you had already said to my post.

Cheers

Pete

[Grand_Marlin]

Hi Gelsec,
Unleaded fuel has aditives to stop it from boiling off at STP. Otherwise we would literally have " a tank of gas"
You are correct with the majority of benzene ring based compounds and most hydrocarbons boil off at well below zero degrees - before additives.

Maybe I should have quoted the cooling effect experienced when hydrocarbon based products change state from liquid to gas, instead of evaporation or boiling off.
I chose evaporation to liken it to the cooling of a meat safe for demonstration purposes....
diesel and petrol, will both change state at STP .... but yes, with diesel it happens at a higher temperature.
Diesel needs heating to combust at STP not to change state.
Hence why diesel is less volatile at STP, and requires 3 times more pressure than petrol to combust in a motor.

I answered a question for Mantaray and others as to how and why condensation in a tank occurs, and in particular how the cooling effect works and how dew point is reached. I wasn't exactly providing a chemistry lesson.

I am not picking at you either, but if you disagree with my findings, then please say so.

In theory, diesel should condensate less than unleaded fuel - that I dont have an answer to.

[impulse492f]

[smiley=oops.gif] my oh my oh my impluse you might not have any further comments but i got one for you ;D somebody has just pointed out where you got the above from

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

so why didn't you put the infomation forward impluse [smiley=leer.gif] what not the right outcome ;D



;D funny I thought that’s where you do your research other peoples websites……, I didn't say I did/did not plagiarise the material. ;D ;D ;D ;D

I drag you in each time, that time you took the rod reel and my arm. :-*

[finga64]

Hey Sahara,

To see if there is a leak or broken seal or somewhere else the water can get in the tank, disconnect the breather hose from the breather and SUCK. When you've sucked all you can slip your tongue on the end of the breather pipe to hold the vacuum. If the vacuum goes there's a leak somewhere if the vacuum stays after about a minute or two it's condensation (your sealing the system with your tongue and negative pressure is evident within the tank by SUCKING). You will not suck up petrol as the breather should be in the top of the tank in the area that should be occupied by vapour alone.

Put a moisture trap of some description in the breather pipe if the vacuum holds. If the vacuum doesn't hold fix the leak.

Personally I couldn't care less about the technical mumbo jumbo and get back to basic analytical thinking and sort the problem out.

My breather is placed in the cowl and I don't seem to have a problem with moisture.

Cheers Scott

[Mantaray]

[smiley=oops.gif] my oh my oh my impluse you might not have any further comments but i got one for you ;D somebody has just pointed out where you got the above from

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

so why didn't you put the infomation forward impluse [smiley=leer.gif] what not the right outcome ;D



;D funny I thought that’s where you do your research other peoples websites……, I didn't say I did/did not plagiarise the material. ;D ;D ;D ;D:-
I drag you in each time, that time you took the rod reel and my arm.



plagarise? what's that got to do with anything?

so why didn't YOU post the infomation?

looks extremely relevent to the discussion, don't you think ;)

[Mantaray]

out of curiosity? does everybody draw from the top of the tank or out through a bottom fitting?

[HarryO]

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Holy H20, Batman...

Yes....I had a lovely weekend,.... Thanks for asking.

Harry... :) :)

[finga64]

out of curiosity? does everybody draw from the top of the tank or out through a bottom fitting?

Does it really matter. All the difference is if it's from the bottom you have troubles all the time and if it's drawn from the top you have troubles when the tank gets down a bit. That's usually towards the end of the day when everyones tired and cranky.

There's 10 pages trying to fix a relatively simple problem and it's turned into a debate on technicalities and who can do a Google search the best. Poor bugger is probably very confused by now and if my memory serves correct THIS THREAD HAS PUT A BLOKE OFF BUYING A BOAT ALL TOGETHER. That's pretty bad in my books.

The problem is water in the fuel:- (a) find where the water is getting in.
(b) stop the water getting in.
(c) if there are intermittent /slight problems with water in fuel bung a water seperator/filter on. Who cares which one is better then the other. If I was looking for a filter i'd ask what it did compared to the rest and how much a replacement element is. Simple.

Flow rates-who cares. The majority of engines used on the oridinary run of the mill boats that most of us will use DO NOT use 60l/hour. Simple. Huge flow rates are not required. There, saved another 2or3 pages on this thread.

How about trying to help this poor bugger not mudslinging or trying to show who knows more??

[seatime]

Hey Grand_Marlin
No not picking, just a friendly tech correction before you got an unfriendly one. It would be good to solve the water issue though, as it is a common problem, insulating might work, a smaller diameter and longer breather pipe maybe, water trap intank, sophisticated water/fuel interface equipment (water finding paste on a stick). cheers

[Mr__Bean]

.




if you have large amounts of water all the time then it is more than condensation




Well, get ready for it everyone.........



Here it comes..........



Mantaray, I agree with you on this bit. I don't think "large" amounts of water regularly pulled from tanks is due to condensation.


Phew.... wasn't as hard as I thought...........

I don't discount that condensation is an issue for many of us however, and I do feel strongly that it needs to be managed.

Be aware where your breather is in relation to humidity sources, is it sucking air from beneath a cover or is it out in the clear air when stored, is the boat being stored wet, or let to dry before storing in the closed shed.

These conditions are worthy of our attention I believe in our defence against water induction to the fuel.

Anyway, after a couple of days of interesting jousting, that's my last 2 bobs worth.

Take it or leave it...... but please consider it.

- Darren

[Mantaray]

out of curiosity? does everybody draw from the top of the tank or out through a bottom fitting?

Does it really matter. All the difference is if it's from the bottom you have troubles all the time and if it's drawn from the top you have troubles when the tank gets down a bit. That's usually towards the end of the day when everyones tired and cranky.


what i was trying to say finga was that i have seen many many underfloor tanks where people have put the outlet right in the bottom/side of the tank instead of one of those fitting things which does not go all the way to the bottom fro the top so would it matter if it was first up or at the end of the day any water is still on the bottom and any that gets stired up is handled by the filter/separator? any outlet direct from the bottom of the tank simply has to feed any water in one foul gulp?

in any case you still have to get the water from somewhere and this i suppose is what all this is about, the myth or the magic

so yes i do think it matters where the outlet is!

[Mantaray]

bean :) we crossed paths there.

yes every little bit counts and i do believe that people should take specific notice of a lot of things, breathers, fillers, take off points, fuel senders, what else? must be something? maybe keep the kids away from the wash down hose. hey dad? what's this 2 eyed thing i'm spraying the hose in 8-)

my last comment also i think the point's been made, more than condensation

[HarryO]

Hmmmm, quite a read....

Facinating, re; condensation issues..

Thanks, Mantaray, primer bulb position never been a
real issue for us, usually between the filter/trap
(if mounted inside, at the transom) and the outboard.
Never had a problem with this, but this digress' from this thread.

Blaze, you won't starve and engine with the cav, even with the 296 elements....

You will notice a considerable drop in horsepower with any "intact"
filter, once it starts to congest..

My original post, was meant to balance the thread, to make
other members following this thread aware of other issues
in their choice of filter units.

The way the posts were reading, you'd think that the racor
units actually produced water...

If taken from a dealer/fitters prespective, its our job to
recommend a unit (if asked) for the application...

The racor unit is a dedicated marine petrol filter, with a
water trap.

The cav units were not... simple...

This is not to say they were inefective....

This was usually decided on price, until the element issue was
brought to our attention..

I might add, that at the time, no alterate element was offered,
but we did stock alternate brands...

Particularly, for the commercial operators, the insurance issue
is of concern, and should not be ignored...

We don't actively seek to become an unwilling 3rd/4th party
in an insurance claim..

Shame to have an expensive policy rendered void if an
incident were to happen regarding the filter..
Long odds, perhaps, but Murphy's always lurking,
nevertheless, it would be remiss of us not to bring this
to the attention of our customer, so the choice became his
to take into consideration, with all the facts, and I was simply
extending the same advice to our members here,
with all good intention..

Regards, Harry...

[Grand_Marlin]

Thanks Gelsec. [smiley=beer.gif]

[The_Walrus]

Wow, what a thread :o It's kept me both interested & entertained. :D

It's also convinced me to stick with my plastic portable rather than fit the ali tank given to me by a mate.

I've used the plastic tank for 4 years, often leave it half full or less for several weeks at a time and never had water problems.

Luc

and yes I do use a fuel filter. :)

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Harry,

Mate, you obviously have been around boats a while and can give some good advice.

Obviously it is critical that there be no leaks in filler caps, any tank fitings and the like. What tests do you do as a professional to check that there are no leaks?

A water separating fuel filter is mandatory with an underfloor tank.
Type?... please yourself.

Ok, so if all the leaks are plugged and the fittings are watertight, what is the best way that you have found to limit the condensation issue?

Cheers,

Pete.

ps to everyone:
I said the other day I will not be entering into bitch fights, and will answer questions directed my way, but not if they are based on sarcasm.

Mantaray asked the question of proof on how condensation gets in tanks, so I replied. Question asked, question answered.
Again, if you disagree with me - say so and state why.
Not many people have any time for the technical or scientific side of things, but I thought it would be of interest to let you know what causes the condensation. At least if everyone knows what causes it, we may be able to find a better way of stopping it.
My posts are not aimed to show "who knows best", but aimed at trying to help solve a problem.... please refer back to page 1.

Cheers

Pete

[finga64]

to check for leaks:-
Disconnect breather pipe at breather, disconnect fuel line at motor. This effectively gives only one opening to a 'sealed' system.
Bung the disconnected breather pipe in you gob and SUCK on it. When you can't suck anymore slide your tongue on it. If the vacuum goes away there's a leak. If not there's no leak.

Simple, effective.

Ways to stop water getting in
(a)Do test above.
(b)If there's a leak find it, fix it. Repeat steps (a) and (b) until no more leaks.
(c)Put the breather in a spot where water can't get in the breather whilst motoring along the water and when your at home hosing, washing etc.

I've seen breathers mounted in some really stupid spots like in an engine well or on top of the gunnel where you hose from every direction. Check where it's mounted and see if it's possible to shoot water out of the hose into it.
Remember Murphy. If it can, it will.

As an experiment, put a big droopy vertical loop in the breather hose (and put a cable tie at the top of the loop so there's no way the loop can unloop itself and make sure the loop can't fall over and become a coil on the floor etc) before going boating and check to see if there is any water in the bottom of the loop after you've finished boating, washing and whatever else you do before the boat gets put to bed in the shed. Is there any water in the droopy loop??

I put my breather up under the engine cowl. No way is water going to get in.
It's not really a test when you put a tank with the lid loose under some plastic in the sun blah, blah. How many would have those conditions?
If condensation was an issue with the area then a lot of other people would be screaming ie earthmovers, truckies, motorists etc, etc.
This guy is having no problems with the car is he?? Same place, same conditions. If that much condensation was an issue his car, his neighbours car and his neighbours car would be playing up as well.
How's the lawn mower going, any water in the tank?? It's an unsealed tank and sits in the shed for a while in exactly the same conditions.

If condensation is that big a deal just tape a half scrunched up shopping bag, garbage bag etc over the breather. When it needs to expand it can, when it wants the suck it back in it can. No moisture can get in though.

Skiptsa, I see you have another filter next to your fuel filter/seperator. Is this your tank breather and is it in your engine well. If so I'd check up on it. I think it is just a tiny air filter used to stop dust and dirt getting into the tank, not a water trap.

[2iar]

I now have 2 engines, 2 batteries, 2 radios, 2 fuel filters, 2 fire extinguishers. At least I know I can get my arse back home ;D



All your eggs are in the one basket though Skipsta. I reckon you need a lifeboat or a tender :-)

Good luck, I hope you problems are solved.

Mike

[HarryO]

Hey Pete.

Our "professional" test, quite crudely, was similar to finga's,
rather we'd apply pressure (6-8 psi) with a hand pump and
gauge, and whilst watching for pressure drop, we'd check every
possible area with a brush and very soapy water.

I still believe that large amounts of water in the system must
be ingress from another source, rather than from condensation.

Personally, I think if the source was from condensation,
we'd have a lot more owners complaining about it, as
I have never come across this problem, to this extent,
before.

An oily rag to cover the breather, or filler cap while cleaning,
is a much better option than using a plastic bag.
I still would be looking at the breather, or filler cap, dodgy fuel,
etc, for the source.

A regular dose of Methylated spirit is still the
best form of preventative maintenance, 500ml when the tanks
low, before you leave home, so it has had enough chance to slosh around in the tank before you get to the servo.

Harry..

[Grand_Marlin]

Thanks Harry,
It is good to get a professional opinion.

I have come across 2 occurrances of major water in fuel... strangely enough both in Cats.
They were both caused by condensation, not fittings, as the tanks were tested in one, and brand new in the other... both set up professionally.
One was in Cairns, one in Tassie... so the area isnt the issue.
I think the thing is to cover all bases, including condensation.
Both were caused by long term storage with partially full tanks.
Once rectified by draining off water, metho added (full bottle to each tank), kept full of fuel and used more regularly... the problems disappeared.

Now, I agree... if after a tank is thoroughly drained and kept full of fuel and there are major ongoing water problems, then it must be something other than condensation.
Mantarays suggestion of spraying water directly into the breather is quite likely a big problem. I just took it for granted that people dont do that... but hey, if you dont know, then you dont know... we ll have to learn.

I have been thinking a lot about how to stop condensation.
The full tank of fuel is the first thing to do.

I really like the idea of a moisture trap on the breather line, but the problem is, we are trying to filter moisture out of the air before it reaches the tank where it condensates... I dont know if this is possible.
If we could create our own condensor, then it would do this for us.
Again, I dont know how we could do this either.
Anyone have any ideas?

The best way of preventing water is to drain it off from the bottom of the tank.
It is nearly impossible to create a sump in a trailer boat for this purpose.

I was thinking that if we had a fuel tap right in the bottom of the tank, we could periodically face the boat uphill so as all the water drains to the back, connect a temporary fuel line to the tap, and hand pump it back into the main tank filler, via a filter funnel like Skipsta has. This would clear probably 95% of water from the tank
This is the closest we could get to regularly draining off a tank.

Any thoughts?

Just for the record, my brother is head techo on the engineering / maintenance side of one of the Navy Frigates.
Their tanks are faultless, contain a higher grade of diesel than we regular folks can buy, and they still drain off 2 litres of water daily from condensation.

Cheers

Pete

[Moffy]

totally innocent question here not looking to push any buttons - but with the breather into the cowl mentioned above - does this not put petrol fumes (eg on expansion of tank) in direct contact with the electricals of the engine - i.e potential ignition point?????

(expect that when engine running the fuel usage would exceed any expansion of gas and so breather would only be feeding air into tank rather than fuel vapour pushing out??) but what about on start-up on a hot day - i.e fuel vapour has been pushing out and cowl is full of vapour when the engine is turned over????? not am auto elecy or have any knowledge of whether the electrics are contained or not in terms of charge leakage - hence my question

[finga64]

Good question Moffy,
The breather I was talking about is placed right in front of the air intake for the outboard. The vapour goes straight out the top.
A small amount of vapour would be evident at all times for most of us with motors of less then 200hp but the little amount of vapour should get sucked straight into the carby/manifold air intake if not go out the top.

Start up on hot day.... The amount of vapour would be less then if the motor was flooded with fuel.

I wouldn't put it right next to the starter motor, starter motor starter solenoid or next to the stator or next to a magnito on an old outboard though

I'd rather the breather in the cowl rather then under the engine well or up under the forward deck where the fumes from a lot of tanks (especially plastic) go and get trapped.

Blaze may have some thoughts on this from the real world.

Grand marlin-
look at skipsta picture on the bottom of page 7 ....bingo air/water seperator.

As for professional opinions we were taught to simulate the problem to find the answer. Water is getting in, so you create a vacuum to see how the water was getting in. The water is not going out so why blow the tank out...
I mentioned shoving it in your gob and suck as how many people have a vacuum pump (or indeed a positive pressure pump with air locks or taps or other means of closing the system once the pressure has been placed in the tank).

Everyone has a gob and everyone has a tongue. Easy, simple, effective, quick test that anybody can do.

And grand marlin, anybody can make a mistake or not think things through. Just because something was done professionally doesn't mean it's without fault. Just look through this thread and look at all the "professional" mistakes. You'd be real peeved if both the cases you describe above were only loose hose clamps or something silly like that. Everybody makes mistakes, it's not a perfect world.

A simple problem is a simple problem until an engineer or academic gets on the band wagon.

[Grand_Marlin]

Hi Finga,

Your ideas are good, and your analytical skills good.

I feel you have "brushed over" some of my comments by the answers you are giving / criticism you are pointing.
Please consider this point so we can move forward on this subject, without picking your statements to pieces.

If I thought Harry was an idiot, I wouldnt have asked his opinion.
I dont personally know the man, but he is obviously very intelligent and experienced by the answers he gives. (save the anyone thinks that Racor filters actually make water comment) :-*
He experiences these things on a regular basis, and I value his opinion.

Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of professional idiots out there, in all circles of life...

We have all identified the potential obvious problems, and we are now trying to progress with preventative ideas, and in the end result come up with a design for the perfect undefloor tank.

If you look back to Sahara's first post, you wil see that they eliminated the obvious first, so it is something else causing the water. Condensation or other..... we are trying to explore all possibilities.

Now, a question for my benefit.

The air / water separator that Skipsta has - will that filter out or reduce the amount of humidity in the air?

If it does, then the condensation problem is solved.
If not, we are still at square one.

Cheers

Pete

[finga64]

Water/air seperators filter out the water and the "professionalism" remark was for the "professional" install of the tanks on the problem cats you (grand marlin) mentioned. No body else.

Who even suggested that Harry is an idiot. It wasn't me.

The obvious wasn't eliminated at the beginning of this post. Did anyone ask if anything else around the placed that had a motor had the same problem? NOPE.
That would have contributed to be able to denighed/confirmed the condensation theory.
Did anyone ask where the breather was. NOPE.

I think it was you (grand marlin) mentioned the obvious with a comment that was probably made in jest but in reality could well be the problem. ie hey dad what's this two eyed snake? Whilst the young fella is pointing the hose at the breather.
More then likely this is the problem. Young fella wanting to help dad clean the new boat.... Young fella with the hose.... Hose pointed on the breather..... lots of water going down the breather pipe..... Lots of water in the tank.
I had a problem with client once when their young fella (6 years old) decided to help mum out and top up the radiator. He took the cap off the petrol tank and and filled it up.... Explain that one with the condensation theory??
Simple looked over things like this are more likely to be the problem with large amounts of water in fuel tanks. Not condensation. That's why they make the drain off tank on the bottom of the fuel/water seperature about 100-200ml in volume, not 4 litres.
If condensation was this much of a problem I think the manufacturers would have got wind of it from lots of people and done something about it.
Yes, (grand marlin) your brother may drain off 2 litres of water a day from the tanks on a frigate, but how many litres does the tank hold?? It's not 100-200 litres.
This bloke had 500ml in a 120litre tank in less then a month.

The obvious to some is not the obvious to others.

The only critism I have is if you blokes want to woffle on do it in the PM system or by e-mail. This relatively simple problem has been drawn out to 11 pages (how many have read the joke of the day thread from start to end??). A lot of people would have given up following the progress because it was just too long and full of garbage.
You fellas have put a bloke off buying a boat. "Sounds like too much trouble" was his comment. That's bad in my books. Ther's a family out there that may not ever know the pleasures of boating.

Keep it simple because most problems are simple.

[HarryO]

Fellas, fellas...

Sorry Pete, it was comments about removing the racor,
and fitting a cav, without doing anything else, not even
draining the tank, solved the water problem.

I knew what you were saying, but it could be miss-understood..

Moffy, modern marine petrol engines have spark suppressed
components/systems for just that reason.

Finga, a vacuum test MAY tell you that you have a leakdown
in the system, but it won't tell you where it is.

We couldn't/wouldn't direct any of our staff to SUCK on a fuel line,
for obvious reasons, but in the home situ, it can rule out/in the
need for further investigations..

brilliant idea re: breather vent outlet in the cowl,
Similar to extending the breather tubes on the diffs
on fourbys.

BUT, you would have to be careful exactly where you
placed it, as when the tanks are full, on a warm day,
fuel WILL expand and can spurt out of the breather outlet.
(common)

It would need to be mounted in a way so it could effectively
and safely drain.

Regards, Harry.

[Grand_Marlin]

Ok....

Finga, you are obviously a very busy man and dont have much time for fineprint - thats ok, but it adds to the waffle.

So far we have learnt that on the complete fuel system - filler, tank, filter and moter, we must:

Check all screw in fittings are tight and correctly sealed with fuel resistant thread tape. (if they are not olive fittings that self seal)

Check all fittings that are attached with screws or rivets are sealed with cork or nitrile rubber gaskets, and more importantly show no evidence of fuel leakage. If fuel can get out, water can get in. And dont use silicone.

Check the filler caps are tightly sealed on the O ring seal, and check that the O ring is in good condition. It should be softish and pliable - not rock hard or perished. Places like Repco should have replacements. Make sure they are fuel resistant.

Check the hose clamps are tight on all fuel filler, breather and pickup lines.

Ensure fuel lines are not laying in water.

Make sure all fuel lines are suitable for fuel (not garden hose) and are in good condition and not perished.

Locate the breather in a suitable place. Up high on the side of the boat is the usual place they are mounted. Make sure that the eyes face towards the back of the boat, and downwards, never upwards or forwards.
An upward facing loop in the breather hose, directly after the breather will stop the majority of water going straight into the tank.
Air / water separators can be installed for this purpose. They will stop direct water, but will not filter humidity and stop condensaion. (ref: Sydney Filter Service)

Pressure test your tanks. Fingas suggestion could be used to quickly see if there are any major leaks, by blocking off the fuel line and sucking. Block it off at the motor as this will test the whole system, not just the tank. Be wary of the health implications of directly sucking in fuel fumes... Tip: Blow down the breather before you start to suck to make sure you dont get a mouthful of fuel!

Use Harry's suggestion to also see if there are any leaks (safer), but also to see exactly where the leak is. Pressurise the tank, but dont over inflate as you could split the tank (6 - 8 psi). To do this, buy a hose tail that fits in the breather line and attach a car tyre inflation valve to the tail to allow quick and easy inflation with a foot pump or similar (these pumps are cheap and have a basic pressure guage on them). The valve will hold the pressure and make it easy to let it out when you are finished.
Using Harrys method with soapy water made with dishwashing liquid, will show where any leaks are. Leaks will blow bubbles, like a kids bubble blower.

Fit an approved and recommended water separating fuel filter.

Keep your tank full of fuel when stored.

Tip metho in your tank at regular intervals. This is not an exact science, but say a ratio of 5 ml per litre of tank capacity every 3 tanks of fuel used.
This equates to 500ml per 100 litre tank, every 3 tanks used.
Do not use Metho in diesel tanks - ever

Be wary of fuel supply sources and be especially careful of filling from mobile filling containers, such as 44 gallon drums.

For complete peace of mind use a water filtering funnel like Skipsta uses and recommends.

Be wary when washing down the boat. Do not aim high pressure water at any of the fuel fittings, especially the filler cap and as Mantaray pointed out, the breather.

Try and store your boat in an area that has the least temperature variance to help reduce condensation.

Check that there is no water in the filter bowl before starting engine every time, and keep a close eye on this during the first few minutes of running, if water has been a major problem. The water separating fuel filter will separate the water, until the glass bowl is full. After this it will suck it straight through the filter.
If you see that the bowl is rapidly filling with water, then you can keep draining it off before it becomes a major problem.

Regularly check all fittings / hoses for deterioration and replace if necessary.

Change your filter element at each service, every twelve months, or more often if contamination collects in the bowl.

Try to get a tank with a drain off point, or an inspection opening at the back of the tank.
Hard to get with store bought tanks, but if you are having one custom made, it is a good idea to ask for one. At least then you have direct access to where the water will be sitting should you ever need to drain the tank.



Can anyone think of any other points to add?


Hopefully this creates a list that will help people understand and eliminate the water in the fuel issue, and let everybody enjoy their day on the water.
(and let us progress to another post)

I have tried my best.

Pete

[finga64]

Finga, a vacuum test MAY tell you that you have a leakdown
in the system, but it won't tell you where it is.

We couldn't/wouldn't direct any of our staff to SUCK on a fuel line,
for obvious reasons, but in the home situ, it can rule out/in the
need for further investigations..

brilliant idea re: breather vent outlet in the cowl,
Similar to extending the breather tubes on the diffs
on fourbys.

BUT, you would have to be careful exactly where you
placed it, as when the tanks are full, on a warm day,
fuel WILL expand and can spurt out of the breather outlet.
(common)

It would need to be mounted in a way so it could effectively
and safely drain.




A vacuum test is the proper way to test. A gasket of any description ie paper, cork etc, can be loose and can act in the same manner that a self draining scupper works. If there's a leak letting stuff into the tank you have to try and pull detectent in. If you pressurise the system it 'could' push a gasket to where it doesn't normally sit and seal the offending leak thus giving a false sense of 'there's no leak here mate'.
The vacuum leak can be detected by the same stuff we use for detecting refrigerant leaks or a thin oil (inox, crc etc) will do the job. If there's a leak you can see the stuff leave a dryer spot and you can see a line where the leak is. You just have to look a wee bit harder. How do they find vacuum leaks in cars if they can't be detected??
Pressurising the tank WILL find 95% of the leaks though. So if you try the pressure test and still get lots of water try the vacuum test.

If a tank is apparently sealed and it's a solid aluminium or stainless tank how much volume do you think a person can suck out. I'd be very supprised if it was more then 15cc if there is no leak.
There should be no fuel here, it's a breather.
Personally I'd use my vacuum pump because it has a valve and a gauge to check the vacuum levels, but if you haven't got one you gotta do what you gotta do.

And yes, if a breather is put under the cowl make sure that if fuel comes out make sure it can get away without damaging anything or it cannot sit anywhere. But that should be followed no matter where the breather is placed.

[finga64]

Grand marlin .... BINGO matey. You've hit the nail on the head.
That's exactly what everybody wants to know.
Wasn't so hard was it. Damn site shorter then 11 pages of mumbo jumbo :)

[billfisher]

I did a search on the net and the phenomenon of water condensation in fuel tanks is widely recognised and not just in boating sites. It pops up in farming equipment, aviation and automotive sites.
I remember someone mockingly suggesting that aeroplanes would be falling out of the sky if condensation was real. I had a laugh when I found an air safety alert published by the FAA. They warn of fatal air crashes caused by water contamination of fuel. Among the causes they list condensation in fuel tanks. They recommend filling tanks to the top post flight.
They also mentioned some of the features in the design of aircraft that help fight the problem. Planes use a floating fuel pick up so that the fuel is not constantly drawn from the bottom of the tank. Also they employ a sump or water trap in the system. Naturally they also use water separating filters.

[HarryO]

Hi again.

I think if we've all learned something from this,
its a good thing...

However, Finga, sorry to disagree...

All fuel tanks are pressure tested, I've never heard of
a fuel tank being vacuum tested. (not professionally, anyway)

Your "pushing the gasket" theory would work both ways...

Mate, if theres a leak, and you pressure it,
trust me, you'll find it...

Its not difficult to locate a vacuum leak in a car, don't know
about a refrigeration system, tho.
I thought they used a dye...

Fuel can, and does get into the breather hose.

Pete, Excellent summary.....

If you're buying "o rings" from repco,
make sure they're the fuel resistant type.

I don't think repco sell 'em.

Metho/diesel? NO.

Deadset critical to keep water out of a diesel engine.
(probably why the cavs work so well, hey. ;) )

Finally.... Harry...

[Grand_Marlin]

Cool.... agreeance.... nice work guys. 8-)

No one should ever have water in their fuel again :-/

If I could add one more thing to the list, it would be to have a drain off point, or an inspection opening at the back of the tank.

Hard to get with store bought tanks, but if you are having one custom made, it is a good idea to ask for one. At least then you have direct access to where the water will be sitting should you ever need to drain the tank.

Very long winded, I agree, but there were some great points raised and discussed, and argued, and argued again ! ;D

Cheers

Pete

ps. I modified my post to include the drain off / inspection opening.
I also changed it to read definitely no metho in the diesel.

At least now if anyone has to refer to the list, it is as complete as we can make it.

[Grand_Marlin]

I came across a product in Trailer Boat Magazine.

It is a pre warning alarm that detects water in your fuel, as it goes through the fuel line.

It is called D-TX Fuel safe, by Water D-Tech-Company.
www.waterinfuel.com

I have never seen them, so I cant comment on what they are like.

It may be peace of mind for some people.

Cheers

Pete

[billfisher]

Another tip is to carry one or two portable fuel tanks with fuel line. They have got me back several times when I have had my motor coughing from water in the main tank. It was my fault in these cases for not draining the filter bowl, but we all slip up from time to time. The extra fuel is also good insurance if it gets rough or you have to play a marlin for a few hours.

[Blackened]

G'day
Thats a great call billfisher. I'm never happy without excess fuel on board. And being independant units adds to the safety.
Dave

[troy]

I have a friend that purchased a new boat 4 months ago and due to illness he has not been able to use it.
The tank as about 20 liters of fuel in it and should he drain the tank or top it up with fresh fuel.
It is a 175 hpdi yamaha as the one i have .
If members think that he has to empty the tank to put fresh fuel in how does he get the old fuel out.
I have the same motor and i am not sure how you can do this
Troy

[billfisher]

It will be OK to top it up with fresh assuming the tank will hold 100 or more litres. Ie one part old fuel to 4 parts fresh. You can use high octane fuel or add an octane booster as well. Make sure he uses it soon after, or the stale fuel will catalyse the degredation of the fresh fuel and he will end up with 100L of stale fuel.

If you want to drain the tank you can just remove the connector from the fuel hose and squeeze the primer bulb.

[stork71]

this thread has got me looking at my system and i've noticed on the standard mercury 'quicksilver' filter/ seperator that came on my 480 quintrex that there is no drain plug. it looks like a standard automotive oil filter. It was replaced at it's last service just prior to xmas but i would like to see if there is any water present in the tank to rule out any future prob.'s. Is it as simple as just removing the unit and tipping out the contents or some other proceedure to avoid drama's..thanks

[impulse492f]

Hi all,

Now I'm not starting the "Which Filters Best" thing again but I just scaned this in from the latest Power Boat magazine.

The article is on the NEW Powercat 2400 Sports Cab, the setup is twin Suzuki 90 4 strokes with twin CAV 296 filters (one mounted in each side wall).

Interesting........

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Impulse,
Just goes to show..... some people do know their filters ;D ;D ;D

Stork... Quicksilver do make a combined water separator / fuel filter in the one steel canister.

They are apparantly a good filter, but you cant check for, or readily drain water.

Harry would be the man to ask on these.

[ahoj]

Grand_Marlin is right-- In a nutshell, the hotter the tank can get, with the least amount of fuel, the more it will condensate... also replace the filter regularly or rather wash them in clean petrol having 2 filter cartrages will be an advantage and if you mount the filter in a accessible place you can replace fast and easy
Try masey Ferguson filter with a glass bowl and a tap or cav
Implse that is what i meant from your pic

Ahoj

[ahoj]

Stork

just tip it out and fill with petrol try not to have any air in the filter--- Prime your lines reasonably

Ahoj