Smooth and partially smooth waters

[finga64]

Just having a decent gander at the maps for smooth and partially smooth waters in the Bay just to make sure I have the right safety gear in 'Junior" if I want to wonder out of the smooth waters area on a nice day like last Monday.
Why are the areas around, say, Mud Island and the like are classed as smooth waters and to get there you have no choice but to go through partially smooth waters?? :-? :-/

Wouldn't it easier on all if the areas around Mud, Green and St. Helena islands were just classed as partially smooth??

Why is the area between Cleveland and Peel Island classed as smooth?? It's far from that a lot of the time.
I'd rather take my chances between Wello and Green Island (partially smooth waters) then between Cleveland and Peel (smooth waters) if the same conditions pop up at the two places.
Just lucky for me I looked I suppose.

http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/qt/MSQ.nsf/ReferenceLookup/s8sw-2brisnth.pdf/$file/s8sw-2brisnth.pdf


P.S. Is a GPS classed as navigation equipement as per the schedule??
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/qt/MSQ.nsf/ReferenceLookup/rec_safety_equipment.pdf/$file/rec_safety_equipment.pdf

[seabug]

And further to the above question by Finga.

I have been told that if a navigational aid is fitted then it is mandatory to use it.

For example,
If a person has a boat fitted with Radar,and is leaving port without turning on the Radar.
Then is involved in an accident.
Then that person is deemed to have contributed to the accident(By not keeping a lookout on a navigational aid.)

IS THIS CORRECT?

Regards
Seabug

[seatime]

G'day finga,
it's hard to see the logic sometimes, but I'm sure it's there somewhere. Part of the definition of smooth waters is within .5n mile from land.
The zoning is decided by historical sea conditions and averaged out to define an imaginary line. The smooth waters areas around the islands could be viewed as safe anchorages or havens, with local knowledge advised. Though as you can appreciate none of it is cut and dried, and a first hand assessment of the conditions will determine how safe the planned trip may be.

Regarding GPS being classed as navigation equipment: by MSQ regulations, no they aren't. By the regs, navigation equipment;
"A recreational ship operating in or beyond partially smooth waters should be equipped with a liquid damped compass and a navigation chart appropriate to the operational area." GPS isn't mentioned?
Note it says 'should' not 'shall' or 'must', things like compasses and anchors are only strongly advised to carry, not regulated to carry.

Then there does seem to be some "open to interpretation" decisions made from time to time.

regards
Steve.

seabug,

if the vessel was commercially registered and abiding by Marine Orders and complying with the col regs, they are expected to "use all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and the risk of collision."
Under 'Marine Orders' if a vessel is required to have a radar, and it is operational, it must be switched on and used.

[seatime]

seabug,

there are no regulations regarding mandatory use of radar by recreational ships.
however, in the spirit of the Col Regs, Rule 5, Lookout, quoted in an earlier post, "by all available means appropriate ....etc......." it may be viewed as a failure to maintain a proper lookout.
there would be mitigating circumstances;
e.g. # middle of a fine day, lots of traffic, everyone in 6m fast boats, it would be best to keep a visual lookout.
# restricted visibility, everyone doing 10-15 kts, should be using radar.

if there was a marine incident, you can be certain the lawyers would apportion blame using the Col Regs, one way or another.

regards

[seabug]

Hi gelsec

Thanks. :)

Regards
Seabug

[marlinqld]

I think you will find that smooth waters is coochi Is south, ( maybe Peel Is south?), partially smooth waters is all the bay from there north, open waters start at a line between skirmish point and comboyuro point.


Mike

[finga64]

Gidday Mike, the areas are marked on the first link. Basically a line from Cleveland point to Amity point marks the smooth-partially smooth boundry.

Hey Gelsac, Isn't advised to carry exactly the same as "just carry the bloody things" according to insurance companies and the duty of care thingo with skippers??

The bit I really don't understand is in the regs it states "or other direction or position finding equipement". For position finding not many boats would carry a sextent (is that right :-?).

What's the point in having a compass??
Scene 1: Broken down or see someone in strife. You call someone by radio or phone.
You: Blah, Blah. we need help
VMR or coast guard etc:..Oh good where are you??
You: Don't know but the compass is pointing 137 degrees
VMR or coast guard etc: We need a postition please, even a rough postion.
You: We're in the bay drifting somewhere north of Peel Island. We think.

Scene 2 Same scenario but with gps
You: Blah, Blah we need help.
VMR etc: Oh good where are you??
You: 153.17.50E 27.26.05S
VMR etc Oh OK your over near Hope banks we'll be there in 18 minutes.

Another thing with compasses. Flares are required. They need to be in date. Fire extingushers maybe required and must be in date. Compaases may or may not be required but calibration or correction of the compass is not required. How many check the accuracy of their compass?? I'd hazard a guess at stuff all.

Was the reg written before GPS's were easily obtained and before most boats had them or they just aren't accurate enough and cannot be depended upon.
I wonder if the person/people who wrote them actually been on a boat??
Can a GPS be classed as a compass as well as most gps's have a direction travelling function. But I guess in that situation the trick is you have to be travelling. Not much good if your drifting or anchored.
All the items the MSB mention ie Nav. chart OR compass will do diddly squat if you broken down in the bay or have an emergency. How do you get an accurate position with a chart OR compass?? It would all be an educated guessimation if you didn't have both.
And all that's pointless if you can't communicate with someone as (please correct me if I'm wrong) 2 way radios are not an item you need in partially smooth waters.

Arh, the more I look at the regs the more confused I get :'( :'(
Why can't the regs be definitive instead of open to interpretation??
Just reading again life jackets seem to be only required for registered ships so boats that aren't registered are exempt??
Arh, I give up. I'll just have all the gear and can't be wrong then eh. Going to take my chances with the compass though. I have a nav. chart onboard (marked with fishing spots :)) that will have to do.
Cheers Scott :)

[marlinqld]

Must Haves IMHO, regardless of what regs say:

EPIRB
GPS - basic units are good and very affordable now
Chart or Beacon to Beacon
2 way radio
Compass



Mike

[seatime]

Hey Gelsac, Isn't advised to carry exactly the same as "just carry the bloody things" according to insurance companies and the duty of care thingo with skippers??

The bit I really don't understand is in the regs it states "or other direction or position finding equipment". For position finding not many boats would carry a sextent (is that right :-?).

Was the reg written before GPS's were easily obtained and before most boats had them or they just aren't accurate enough and cannot be depended upon.
I wonder if the person/people who wrote them actually been on a boat??
Can a GPS be classed as a compass as well as most gps's have a direction travelling function. But I guess in that situation the trick is you have to be travelling. Not much good if your drifting or anchored.
All the items the MSB mention ie Nav. chart and compass will do diddly squat if you broken down in the bay or have an emergency. How do you get an accurate position with a chart or compass?? It would all be an educated guessimation.
And all that's pointless if you can't communicate with someone as (please correct me if I'm wrong) 2 way radios are not an item you need in partially smooth waters.

Arh, the more I look at the regs the more confused I get :'( :'(
Why can't the regs be definitive instead of open to interpretation??
Just reading again life jackets seem to be only required for registered ships so boats that aren't registered are exempt??
Arh, I give up. I'll just have all the gear and can't be wrong then eh. Going to take my chances with the compass though. I have a nav. chart onboard (marked with fishing spots :)) that will have to do.
Cheers Scott :)

G'day finga

It's possible 'duty of care' and 'seaworthiness' infringements could hang a skipper if the incident made it to court. The skipper has the final word on safety and there is no regs on the maximum amount of safety and navigation gear that can be carried. If it's all in-date, you can carry as much safety gear as you like.

"other direction finding equip" would include GPS, DF, electronic compasses, etc, but not classed as a liquid damped compass as they require power and a mag compass doesn't.

A very accurate position, as accurate as GPS, can be found using a chart and compass if broken down in the bay without power. Multiple bearings of terrestrial marks will give a very accurate fix.

Safety equip is the same for an area of operation whether the vessel is registered or not.

regards
Steve.

[stevedemon]

Hi finga

mate in partically smooth waters it is mandatory to carry all safety gear this includes a marine radio but does not include an EPIRB from memory you do not require an EPIRB any where in the bay as it is all classed as partically smooth water open water is outside the bay and 2nm off shore is the only time that the EPIRB is mandatory

And all that's pointless if you can't communicate with someone as (please correct me if I'm wrong) 2 way radios are not an item you need in partially smooth waters.

i carry all safety gear at all times no matter where i go as you never know just what may happen out there and it is to far to swim and to many things with big teeth.

as far as duty of care goes it is always the skippers responsibilities to carry the appropriate gear for the safety of all passenagers and the safety of other uses on the water (same they do not install this to jet ski operators) and i always carry a pair of binnoculars on board for picking up land marks.
there is a book you can buy from boat books in the city with all the rules and regs on australian rules will get the name and post it later for you new additions has just come out it is about $80.00 but well worth the price. most charter skippers use this one.

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

[finga64]

[quote author=finga link=1160123388/0#6 date=1160342265]
.

"other direction finding equip" would include GPS, DF, electronic compasses, etc, but not classed as a liquid damped compass as they require power and a mag compass doesn't.

A very accurate position, as accurate as GPS, can be found using a chart and compass if broken down in the bay without power. Multiple bearings of terrestrial marks will give a very accurate fix.

regards
Steve.
Yep you can get an accurate positional fix with a compass IF you can get a bearing on at least two points. Sometimes that could be a tad hard.
This must be why we must carry flares eh :)
But I agree wholeheartley about why just carry the minimum safety equipement.
IMO a hand held compass is more usefull then the usual fixed compass in many cases. I'd better go and have a look for one of those.
Things like PFD 1's, EPIRBS and radios (which I carry all the time no matter where I am) should be seriously considered in every boat.
Thanks fellas :)

[finga64]

In the actual act, http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/SLS/2006/06SL019.pdf section 6, you need a compass and a chart, whilst in the reference to look up about safety equipement it says a few options and very vague options http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/qt/MSQ.nsf/ReferenceLookup/rec_safety_equipment.pdf/$file/rec_safety_equipment.pdf

Maybe a good start is to actually make all the documents not so vague and to actually correspond to each other.

According to the Act. a Beacon to Beacon is not acceptable as a nav. chart. They are only a guide and the B to B says so in the front.
It has to be a nav. chart appropiate to the area. But that's only hair splitting and it's be pretty rough to get pinged for that. ;)

[seatime]

Yeah, the compulsory equipment for all recreational boats in Qld is vastly inadequate.

Prudent skippers would also carry all the suggested 'safety obligation' equipment, as this additional equipment complies with Section 44 of the Act, i.e. the skipper's safety obligation ( read - 'duty of care').

Yes it is confusing, even more so for the patrol officers it appears, so the safest solution is to carry all of the 'safety equipment' listed in the Regulations.

Carry everything, 'compulsory' and 'suggested' for waters 'beyond partially smooth' and you will always comply with all the regs.

regards
Steve.

[seatime]

Hi finga

mate in partically smooth waters it is mandatory to carry all safety gear this includes a marine radio but does not include an EPIRB from memory you do not require an EPIRB any where in the bay as it is all classed as partically smooth water open water is outside the bay and 2nm off shore is the only time that the EPIRB is mandatory


as far as duty of care goes it is always the skippers responsibilities to carry the appropriate gear for the safety of all passenagers and the safety of other uses on the water (same they do not install this to jet ski operators) and i always carry a pair of binnoculars on board for picking up land marks.

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

Hi Steve,

Mate, where in the regs does it state marine radios are mandatory in partially smooth waters. I'm not aware of marine radios being mandatory for recreational boats in any areas of operation.
The MSQ handbook is ambiguous in places and confusing in others, the compulsory equip is listed on page 40 (red & white Haines on cover), page 41 is suggested equip to comply with Section 44 'Safety Obligation', not compulsory.

regards

[stevedemon]

Hi gelsec
mate i had a book here with all rules and reg have lent it out and trying to track down the guy as he has moved house was doing the coxswains course when i get it back or i catch up with him will let you know the name of book

if you talk to the marine board or marine safety guys they will inform you that from partically smooth waters it is mandatory for all vessel to carry marine radio's and it is stated in one of the rules and regs when i find it i will post it for you over the next couple of days

Cheers ;D ;D
Steve 8-) 8-)

[Fat Chilli]

Gelsec -

You raise a good point about the "SHOULD" not "MUST" debate. I know this is off topic but when I purchased my boat I took it down to the Transport Office and transfered the rego etc. whilst their they gave me one of those Boat Capacity Label stickers (the yellow one with the individual stick on numbers). I also recieved a brochure on the new capacity laws in relation to these stickers.
The brochure states the the owner of the boat "Should" affix the sticker to the boat, not "Must".
So I called MSQ about the legality and requirements to affix the sticker and if it was required if the manufacturers placard stated the capacity in terms of weight (i.e. the 75kg person sticker). The lady that answered was adamant that it "Must" be affixed to my boat, I then questioned her knowledge of the legal use of the word "Should" and it's legal interpretation. She then said that she would clarify the requirement, 5 mins later she came back and said it "Must" be fitted even if the manufacturer has a capacity placard on the boat. I suggested that they amend the brochure to read "Must" then, she said she would escalate the issue.
So I would be clarifying the wording of "Should" and "Must" before deciding on what Nav equipment is required.

Finga - I checked the accuracy of my compass ;), if you got done for no compass could you argue that you watch is a compass, because they are! (if the suns up and you know how to use it)

No mention of Radios in my handbook, only Epirbs etc.

Cheers

[wessel]

This topic has made me check the accuracy of my compass installed on the boat. The thing is 30 degrees out.
Seems that the new engine revcounter mounting bracket interferes with the magnetic readings. Big ooops :o

That could have been fun trying to get back to land in the fog with the GPS on the blink.
30 degrees is a lot when you start out 50 miles out to sea.

Now back to our normal program schedule....


Wessel