Lithium batteries & insurance

[NAGG]

Hi All

I've noticed in recent times there has been some "Disturbance in the Force" when it comes to boat insurance & the use of Lithium technology batteries on boats

The rumblings vary from what the Insurers might do through to the need for "professional installation"

This will be one to watch as Insurance companies are always on the look out for an "out"

At this stage Club Marine are not doing anything ..... but for others - ???


Chris

[disorderly]

I wonder if its a backlash because of that charter dive boat of California where more then 30 people died because of a charging lithium battery causing a catastrophic fire..

Given that the battery market is largely unregulated and you really cant tell whether whats in the box has the correct sized wiring, connectors and BMS and that many people hook them up themselves, I think its reasonably understandable that an insurance company may ask that they are installed by someone that knows what they are doing..

I hope it doesnt become part of the policies but I would not be surprised if it does..

[upstart]

I wonder if its a backlash because of that charter dive boat of California where more then 30 people died because of a charging lithium battery causing a catastrophic fire..

Given that the battery market is largely unregulated and you really cant tell whether whats in the box has the correct sized wiring, connectors and BMS and that many people hook them up themselves, I think its reasonably understandable that an insurance company may ask that they are installed by someone that knows what they are doing..

I hope it doesnt become part of the policies but I would not be surprised if it does..

Straight away thought of your old mate when I read this!!

[Dignity]

Seen this

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyGDkiUAwxRs&ved=2ahUKEwjM5evQtsD4AhVO7GEKHR6YCysQo7QBegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2bUZboWIoJNfGLOiKTPsNH

[Any_Weather]

Gday Sam, thanks for this. That is scary. Certainly something to think about.

Cheers
Lee


Sent from my iPhone using Ausfish forums

[disorderly]

Straight away thought of your old mate when I read this!!

Do ya reckon old mate will carry his new LifePO4 leccy batteries in the bottom of the splash well next to his start battery...?

[chris69]

Well if you think about it they use a heap of lithium batteries on the modern day aeroplanes so what ever they do for them on the safety side of things it should be the same on a boats at least you can jump over board on a boat not quite the same at 30,000 feet.

[Dignity]

Gday Sam, thanks for this. That is scary. Certainly something to think about.

Cheers
Lee


Sent from my iPhone using Ausfish forums

Don't do stupid things is basically what this is saying. That includes buying cheap LiFePo4 batteries on fleabay or FB. Safety does have a price, I'm about to put one in the tinnie for my leccy.

[Dignity]

Also no guatantee this is factual as I havent checked it out. I would be surprised that those batteries would use pouch cells.

[disorderly]

Yes Sam its really not fair to label all Lithium iron batteries as "dangerous" ...

As you know there are different types that use different elements in them..

LiFePO4 are the safest both in terms of combustion and and any threat of danger to humans handling them as they dont contain flammable or poisonous heavy metals...

https://wiserobotics.com/blog/safe-as-robots-lifepo4-batteries-explained/

I'm not sure if airline differentiate between types of Lithium ion batteries allowed as carry on or if its just a blanket ban on all lithium ion...but you could imagine it may create somewhat of a drama if someone's battery or device malfunctioned or overcharged and went off like in that video Dignity posted..

[Dignity]

Yes Sam its really not fair to label all Lithium iron batteries as "dangerous" ...

As you know there are different types that use different elements in them..

LiFePO4 are the safest both in terms of combustion and and any threat of danger to humans handling them as they dont contain flammable or poisonous heavy metals...

https://wiserobotics.com/blog/safe-as-robots-lifepo4-batteries-explained/

I'm not sure if airline differentiate between types of Lithium ion batteries allowed as carry on or if its just a blanket ban on all lithium ion...but you could imagine it may create somewhat of a drama if someone's battery or device malfunctioned or overcharged and went off like in that video Dignity posted..

And the confusion reigns supreme when reading specs on lifepo4 batteries they are being referred to as "Lithium Ion" in most cases.

[NAGG]

It's why you are asked when boarding a plane are you carrying any spare batteries or battery packs ?

Back to the point of LiFePO$ batteries are not all created equal & you get what you pay for .

This technology is pretty safe - when it is constructed , designed & charged properly .. ...... If you watch Will Prowse on his tear downs he will at times say that a battery would be OK if used outside or in a shed. ...... it would do a job but dont use it in your house (just in case) .

As for planes - you can bet they aren't using ebay batteries ;)

Chris

[TheRealAndy]

LiFePO4 is a type of Lithium based battery. There is many, NMC, NCA, LMO, LFP, CLO.

LiFePO4, or LFP is the safest, but not the highest energy density. The types that are used in phones and cars and planes are very different, higher energy density and perhaps not quite as safe.

[disorderly]

I guess this is why Lithium ion battery packs arent allowed on airplanes...it wouldnt be much fun on your boat or car either..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qOM5ih0IHg

[ericcs]

the first built Boeing 787's had a few battery fires. now, they are fitted inside fully sealed metal boxes which are vented externally. so any possible fire will be contained within and left to burn itself out!

[Lovey80]

LifePo4 is definitely the safest mass produced battery but there is still a thermal runaway risk if there’s a short or a serious overcharge for a long period of time.

If safety is the ultimate goal then Lithium Titanate Oxide (LTO) cells are the supposed to be the safest with zero thermal runaway and cold temperature charging. they’re also excellent at fast charging and discharging. The only problem with LTO is the price and the density is much lower than LifePo4. If they can find a way to match LifePo4 in density and cost to produce then I think LTO would get regulated and the others would nearly be regulated out of existence. Enough Tesla fires already.

[NAGG]

LifePo4 is definitely the safest mass produced battery but there is still a thermal runaway risk if there’s a short or a serious overcharge for a long period of time.

If safety is the ultimate goal then Lithium Titanate Oxide (LTO) cells are the supposed to be the safest with zero thermal runaway and cold temperature charging. they’re also excellent at fast charging and discharging. The only problem with LTO is the price and the density is much lower than LifePo4. If they can find a way to match LifePo4 in density and cost to produce then I think LTO would get regulated and the others would nearly be regulated out of existence. Enough Tesla fires already.

Probably makes sense to not leave the battery connected to a running charger .

Charges & BMS can malfunction .

Chris

[TheRealAndy]

Probably makes sense to not leave the battery connected to a running charger .
Chris

Why would that be?

[NAGG]

Why would that be?

If the battery charger of BMS fails .

I have had a CTEK fail & fry an AGM previously - kept pumping in full 25amps ...... so it can happen

Chris

[Lovey80]

If the battery charger of BMS fails .

I have had a CTEK fail & fry an AGM previously - kept pumping in full 25amps ...... so it can happen

Chris

Now just imagine your outboard regulator shits itself 10 minutes into a 1 hour trip and is pumping in (Insert ridiculous voltage here) instead of 14.4. -15v. Much higher chance of that happening bouncing around on the ocean over 500 hours than a CTEK going berserk at home on the chargers..

[tunaticer]

C-Tek chargers are popular but not fail proof....have replaced two that have either fried batteries or themselves.
I won't buy C-Tek again.

I currently have faith in the Victron charge systems.....when I swap to lithium it will be with Victron again.

Professionally installed does not mean much.....any auto electrician could install.....whether he uses good components hooked up the safest way is yet to be proven.
Is there a specific course auto elecs would have to do to get accredited for LiFePO4 systems?
I assume not seeing none of them allude to specific accreditation.

[NAGG]

C-Tek chargers are popular but not fail proof....have replaced two that have either fried batteries or themselves.
I won't buy C-Tek again.

I currently have faith in the Victron charge systems.....when I swap to lithium it will be with Victron again.

Professionally installed does not mean much.....any auto electrician could install.....whether he uses good components hooked up the safest way is yet to be proven.
Is there a specific course auto elecs would have to do to get accredited for LiFePO4 systems?
I assume not seeing none of them allude to specific accreditation.

I think the CTEK chargers were good in their day ( early smart chargers) but they do fail - like mine did & I know of a couple of others that have failed as well .

I went to the Victron chargers (2 x 12/25 bluesmart) a few years back ...... been great & these are permanently wired in .

Chris