Snapper Wild Stocking......... it's viable

[Lucky_Phill]

Watched a program recently, that touched on Wild stocking of Snapper ( Pinkies , as they are known in WA ).

It involved recreational fishers tagging Snapper in their closed season, TAFE collecting eggs and breeding them up to release size.

Quite interesting, so I managed to find some details here :- https://recfishwest.org.au/our-services/fish-stocking/

I was told by Fisheries Queensland, some time ago, that wild stocking of Snapper is not " viable ". Well considering the stringent measures taken in attempting to manage the Snapper fishery here in Qld, maybe that word " viable " needs to be replaced ?

If the Qld Snapper fishery is not recovering due to current management, then wild stocking must be seriously looked at again.

If FQ are in doubt, maybe they can contact their WA counterparts and get the lowdown ????

Here is also a part of the program.. :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmR4GWCXE5k&feature=emb_logo

Cheers LP

[Noelm]

I guess as long as strict disease management is implemented so odd diseases don't get transferred to natural stock (like white spot in Prawns) then why not, even if less than half the fish survive, then it's more than there was. Without further bag limits and raising of size limits, it's really the only option except a total ban, and who will go for that?

[Noelm]

I was just talking about something similar while having a beer with my son the other day, let's say in 1990 ( that's just a date I pulled out of my bum) you could go out and catch 10 Snapper, at the ramp, there was 30 boats out, that makes 300 Snapper caught (if everyone was fishing for Snapper) now fast forward to 2020, I go out and catch 2 Snapper, but the ramp is packed, there's boat trailers everywhere, everyone caught 2 Snapper each, is the total catch per day the same (by number), but it is spread over so many boats now? Add to that the age old question, how do we reliably count them?

[Lucky_Phill]

I was just talking about something similar while having a beer with my son the other day, let's say in 1990 ( that's just a date I pulled out of my bum) you could go out and catch 10 Snapper, at the ramp, there was 30 boats out, that makes 300 Snapper caught (if everyone was fishing for Snapper) now fast forward to 2020, I go out and catch 2 Snapper, but the ramp is packed, there's boat trailers everywhere, everyone caught 2 Snapper each, is the total catch per day the same (by number), but it is spread over so many boats now? Add to that the age old question, how do we reliably count them?

Yep, I know. I have been involved with the science regarding Snapper in Qld and the basic fact is , we do not know the recreational take ( or bio mass ), so we have to make an educated guess. Some people are not happy with that, but we just have to accept that, given the impossible task of defining those numbers.

We also take into consideration they fact that technology plays a huge part in fish stock declines, human population ( boat people :) ), pollution, habitat destruction and more.

Are reduced bag limits, increased size limits, boat limits, close seasons etc working ? Good question.............. how long is a piece of string ?

Until we do like WA and have measured involvement from rec anglers beside FQ, we may never be able to quantify the Snapper Fishery management .

From my perspective and anecdotal evidence as well as physical personal evidence, our Snapper fishery is still in decline.

Habitat destruction and commercial trawling by-catch, IMO, are a huge contributor to this decline with the by-catch having no real management changes to reduce this. Some will say " oh there have been a reduction in trawl operators / licences ", but that does not equate to a reduction in by-catch. No a significant number anyway.

Let's have a quick squizz at every fishery that has had either stocking programs or banning of commercial fishing........... WOW.................. robust and sustainable fisheries. Fish Management 101........... simples ><> :)

LP

[Dignity]

I think you hit a nerve when you mention By-catch, that to mamy is just a way of saying take what you like.
I recall quite some time ago (possibly as far back as 15 years or more) the fisheries research centre at Bribie had success in breeding snapper and high hopes of restocking. I never kept up to date with their research, what changed I wonder.

[NAGG]

I think you will will find that the growth rate of snapper is the problem with viability .

My understanding is that there isn't an issue with the recruitment of snapper ....... they are abundant .

It boils down to the size limits - they need to be higher than they are ..... give those fish a chance to spawn a few times .
fix that & they will be a sustainable wild species .

Chris

[Lucky_Phill]

I think you hit a nerve when you mention By-catch, that to mamy is just a way of saying take what you like.
I recall quite some time ago (possibly as far back as 15 years or more) the fisheries research centre at Bribie had success in breeding snapper and high hopes of restocking. I never kept up to date with their research, what changed I wonder.

Yep.......... viability, was the issue.. $'s !

[Lucky_Phill]

I think you will will find that the growth rate of snapper is the problem with viability .

My understanding is that there isn't an issue with the recruitment of snapper ....... they are abundant .

It boils down to the size limits - they need to be higher than they are ..... give those fish a chance to spawn a few times .
fix that & they will be a sustainable wild species .

Chris

That " size limit " management has been going on for many many years, and it has come to naught, hence there has been bag limits, closures and now another reduction in possession limits and now boat limits..... the current stock management is not working, clearly.

Time to think outside the box and be pro-active, rather than reactive.

LP

[NAGG]

That " size limit " management has been going on for many many years, and it has come to naught, hence there has been bag limits, closures and now another reduction in possession limits and now boat limits..... the current stock management is not working, clearly.

Time to think outside the box and be pro-active, rather than reactive.

LP

It's come to naught - because we are allowed to target juvenile fish ...... a 30cm snapper probably hasn't had the chance to breed
40cm snapper have definitely reached maturity ...... maybe that should be the minimum size

Chris

[gazza2006au]

I dont think its wild stocking because the fry are captivity bred,

We have had stocking over the past year of king fish in Sydney but no one i have heard from has caught the captivity bred fish and they released 10's of thousands

There is quiet a bit of difference from raising fry in live pens to releasing fry into the wild to battle on there own

Those fish that escaped the Port Stephens pen were 45-50cm well and truley big enough to out speed noah but fry 40mm long are like candy to a bream or tailer

I wonder howthey will release snapper fry will they be gently released from a sea pen if so how do pens work for snapper as they are bottom dwellers if they release the snapper fry 40mm into open waters there all going to get eatin

[chris69]

Ive got a cousin breeding Qld grouper and cobia commercially ,so there cheap to grow out to make money on them ,snapper are another story the cost per fingling would be higher, there's nothing they can't do its the cost of doing it that dictates and there a smart bunch at Bribie, Maroochydore river didn't prosper from restocking many years ago of bread and butter species,so im woundering weither it would work locally for the bay or outside in the deep water.

[Lucky_Phill]

It's come to naught - because we are allowed to target juvenile fish ...... a 30cm snapper probably hasn't had the chance to breed
40cm snapper have definitely reached maturity ...... maybe that should be the minimum size

Chris

Chris, The science says Snapper have had at least 2 seasons to bred at 35cms, hence the original size limit introductions. They are a relativity slow growing animal unfortunately.

LP

[Lucky_Phill]

I dont think its wild stocking because the fry are captivity bred,

We have had stocking over the past year of king fish in Sydney but no one i have heard from has caught the captivity bred fish and they released 10's of thousands

There is quiet a bit of difference from raising fry in live pens to releasing fry into the wild to battle on there own

Those fish that escaped the Port Stephens pen were 45-50cm well and truley big enough to out speed noah but fry 40mm long are like candy to a bream or tailer

I wonder howthey will release snapper fry will they be gently released from a sea pen if so how do pens work for snapper as they are bottom dwellers if they release the snapper fry 40mm into open waters there all going to get eatin

How would a recreational angler know if they caught a wild stocked Kingie ? The system of breeding and releasing stocks utilises a chemical dye in the food that can only be traced if the fish that has been caught is returned to the " lab " for analysis .

The question of viability comes down to importance and votes. There is no doubt it is important, maybe even vital to sustain our fisheries, but would a sitting Govt spend a couple of mill on fingerlings or a new park / school / road / etc etc

The question of viability is also heavily linked to priorities. If you took a petition to the Fisheries Minister that had 250,000 signatures on it, you'd have wild stocking locked in the following week. Unfortunately it works this way :(

WE know the recruitment rate in the wild is under 5% and the science tells us recruitment of released ( wild stocked ) fish would be about 1%. 1% of say 20 million is still a huge impact in say Moreton Bay. Those figures are not out of reach as each mature Snapper can produce up to 3 million eggs per breeding season... extrapolate that !! ><>

I'm just saying the Snapper fishery is not sustainable here in Qld and needs a hand. The hand being given currently is not working. Habitat rehabilitation, wild stocking and by-catch reduction are the only things not addressed in current management programs.

LP

[Noelm]

OK, now this might be way off base, but...I have lived in the same place all my life, there is a little Estuary very close by, small Snapper were a "pest" when I was a kid fishing decades ago, the same Estuary is full of small Snapper today, you could go and catch dozens right now, so, that saiid, if the juvenile fish are still there, why is there so few legal fish in the ocean? Does my original thought hold water? they are there, but they are spread over hundreds of anglers now? we haven't had Ocean trawling here for years now, (there is only 2 boats now still operating) most licences where "bought out" by money raised from rec license fees. Does the fact that there is thousands of houses now play a part, as bits and pieces of the water front gets altered? does just constant fishing pressure play a part? Would releasing more small Snapper be fruitless, because there's plenty there now? There is just so many almost unanswerable questions, but one things certain, unless we play our part, and stop being paranoid about data collection, or pointing the finger at someone else, then ultimately we will suffer.

[NAGG]

Chris, The science says Snapper have had at least 2 seasons to bred at 35cms, hence the original size limit introductions. They are a relativity slow growing animal unfortunately.

LP

Anything I've read in the past show that there is no definitive size when it comes to sexual maturity .......(Location has a lot to do with it ) as low as about 26cm by the same token as high as 38cm .
Sexual maturity does not define if a fish is breeding either ......... it's why spawning aggregations usually involve larger fish - have you ever seen a spawning aggregation ? they are big fish

- Additionally the fact is that the quality & number of eggs produced by smaller fish are not anywhere near those of a larger female ...... so there is the viability issue .

Chris

[Dignity]

Noelm, your little estuary is probably one of the few places left where they still live. Phill mentioned 'destruction of habitat' as being a cause, this certainly has happened all up and down the coast. We had a local shopping centre expand and originally the new section which included mangroves on the creek was to be retained. But surprisingly, not, as the building progressed the developer did a deal and replaced them with new growth at a location that I haven't been able to ascertain. This happens all the time yet govts seem to forget that over 90% of fish fry live their first stages in mangroves and estuaries, even the marlin start their early life there.

[gazza2006au]

How would a recreational angler know if they caught a wild stocked Kingie ? The system of breeding and releasing stocks utilises a chemical dye in the food that can only be traced if the fish that has been caught is returned to the " lab " for analysis .

The question of viability comes down to importance and votes. There is no doubt it is important, maybe even vital to sustain our fisheries, but would a sitting Govt spend a couple of mill on fingerlings or a new park / school / road / etc etc

The question of viability is also heavily linked to priorities. If you took a petition to the Fisheries Minister that had 250,000 signatures on it, you'd have wild stocking locked in the following week. Unfortunately it works this way :(

WE know the recruitment rate in the wild is under 5% and the science tells us recruitment of released ( wild stocked ) fish would be about 1%. 1% of say 20 million is still a huge impact in say Moreton Bay. Those figures are not out of reach as each mature Snapper can produce up to 3 million eggs per breeding season... extrapolate that !! ><>

I'm just saying the Snapper fishery is not sustainable here in Qld and needs a hand. The hand being given currently is not working. Habitat rehabilitation, wild stocking and by-catch reduction are the only things not addressed in current management programs.

LP

Hey LP i think from memory they released 60,000 or 70,000 king fish the way u cal tell none of those released have been caught because the king fish that everyone catch are 45-55cm none are under 30cm not even close to 30cm i think the fingerlings were tiny

[Lucky_Phill]

Thanks so far to all for their thoughts and input.:thumbup:

This subject has been going on for many years and as a part of it, I sat with FQ scientists ( a number of different ones ) and talked about all things relating to Snapper, from how do they get the bump, to by-catch, to habitat, to mass spawning events, juvenile nurseries to adult aggregations, growth rates, wild mortality rates, migration between bays and open oceans. Some of these guys have well over 20 years of data both factual and anecdotal.

The Maroochy River stocking program ( whiting ) was a one off event that didn't seem to show great results............ one off's do not work. !

Questions still need to be asked like " are we flogging a dead horse " ? maybe climate change is having an effect we cannot overcome ?

Do we really know the cause of severely declining stocks and what demographic are those stocks ( large adults, adolescents, juveniles, ) ??? Is a large sector of this fishery moving to deeper, colder waters ???

There are so many factors to look at with some, more important than others. I could go on for hours with data, scenarios, anecdotal evidence and theories, but I digress.

I suppose I just get frustrated when FQ announce a management program for a fishery and all that entails is a size increase or bag limit reduction or closed season........ it just seems to narrow visioned, it's like putting a band-aid on a melanoma, yes, you may cover it, but you ain't fixing the problem.

There is no disputing the facts here in Qld, that the " smooth waters " ( close to shore ) have suffered the most. Land degradation, destruction of habitat, over fishing, illegal fishing, water temps and by-catch issues are the contributing factors to our current situation.

There are ways to address most of those issues, but dropping an artificial reef near Peel Island will not get a pollie enough votes to win a seat. We are still lacking a strong stakeholder group to sit on all working groups dedicated to Queenslands Fishery.

Sunfish have been doing their best to contribute commonsense debates and proposals.

Recreational Anglers must also play their part and contribute data.

LP

[gazza2006au]

I think the biggest thing is food these fish go from eating pellets to have to hunt down live living fish to eat than there is another fish on its tail trying to do the same

Its a fish eat fish world

I really hope the snapper do take off it would be good to get a few in sydney that are bigger than 15cm

[chris69]

Phil the trawlers have been reduced in the bay for many years now and theres no increase in catches which I thought would happen more prawns more fish but that has not happened but the rec side of things has exploded and lots of land cleared to house the population increase something is not working anymore were not even getting the tuna in the bay like we used to were catching more runoff to fill the dams so there water for all the extra people crossing the boarder,i think it won't matter how many fingerlings are tipped in the bay its not firing in the seasons like it used too, we don't even get the jellyfish as much anymore.

[Dignity]

Phil the trawlers have been reduced in the bay for many years now and theres no increase in catches which I thought would happen more prawns more fish but that has not happened but the rec side of things has exploded and lots of land cleared to house the population increase something is not working anymore were not even getting the tuna in the bay like we used to were catching more runoff to fill the dams so there water for all the extra people crossing the boarder,i think it won't matter how many fingerlings are tipped in the bay its not firing in the seasons like it used too, we don't even get the jellyfish as much anymore.

Once again, a lot comes down to the environment, destruction of mangroves is a disaster. Recently with the help of the local indigenous community who supplied mangrove trees to 1 metre plus in height and that takes quote an effort , the SSC council and the local Onslow cadets an area was planted out. However several months later nearly everyone had been vandalised. The thought is residents not wanting to lose their water views.
Hopefully it was a one off but that is still just one very small part of the equation as Phill states.

[gazza2006au]

Chris have u compared local water temps to say 5 years ago or maybeven 20 years? It may be global warming it couldausfish be the water in your bay may have risen there arelots of contributors tho the more global warming the more rain flushing out rivers and bays etc with fresh

Down here we are seeing makos along our shores which i have never heard of before one guy caught a mako under the gladesville bridge in the river several months ago, these are usually sharksthat are 20kms out to sea

[Lucky_Phill]

I have sent an email to most of the people that responded here.

If you have not received one from me, 3 things have happened.

1... You have changed your email address that you signed on with Ausfish originally

2... It has gone to your junk mail

3.. You've read it and have not or am not going to respond.

Either way, if you haven't got this email, please message me or post here and I will get it to you. I believe it is important and concerns the survival of the Snapper Fishery.


Cheers LP

[Dignity]

I have sent an email to most of the people that responded here.

If you have not received one from me, 3 things have happened.

1... You have changed your email address that you signed on with Ausfish originally

2... It has gone to your junk mail

3.. You've read it and have not or am not going to respond.

Either way, if you haven't got this email, please message me or post here and I will get it to you. I believe it is important and concerns the survival of the Snapper Fishery.


Cheers LP

Didn't get one Phill, PM sent.

[Bremic]

Hi Phil

You could forward an email to me, please.

[Lucky_Phill]

Hi Phil

You could forward an email to me, please.

Done..... :)

[tunaticer]

I don't think that wild stocking snapper will be a success until the minimum size limit is stepped up to 50cm fork length....I mean fair suck, the fish can grow to a metre long! Currently the minimum size is still a juvenile....wake up Australia!

[Lucky_Phill]

I don't think that wild stocking snapper will be a success until the minimum size limit is stepped up to 50cm fork length....I mean fair suck, the fish can grow to a metre long! Currently the minimum size is still a juvenile....wake up Australia!

The current size limit in Qld is based on them having at least 2 spawning seasons.

LP

[Ronje1]

" we do not know the recreational take ( or bio mass ), so we have to make an educated guess."


There's gear around now that WILL measure biomass of a number of different species. Its main use is in rivers and dams (confined areas). Biosonics equipment and its based in Qld. Have seen it in operation and the results. Pretty impressive stuff.

Also used for determining tilapia infestation along with trout biomass measurements in NSW. Also does bathymetric surveys of rivers and dams.

Via "machine learning", it will display location and size/number tag nominated species once its been taught what to look for. Currently does usual freshwater surveys for different freshwater species.

In saltwater, I saw a result of measuring numbers of king threadfin along with sizes along a section of bank in peak king season in Fitzroy. 1 km of bank yielded 5,000 individual king.

Only way that could be used for snapper would be to "teach" it to look for snapper and then sample a nominated area over a period. There'd be no benchmarked starting point though.

All Qld Fisheries has as a starting point is catch boat ramp data from rec fishermen and commercial log books.

Qld Fisheries have a current policy of NOT stocking saltwater with ANY species (even barramundi) so there'd have to be a policy change there which is a lengthy and convoluted process. I'd be hopeful rather than confident that'll happen though.

Qld Fisheries is dead against the use of Biosonics equipment mainly because the owner of the company is not on their christmas card list.

However, NSW Fisheries love it. Councils and dam operators in Qld also use the service. But not Qld Fisheries.

Good luck with it.

[Lucky_Phill]

Are you saying Fisheries Queensland will not advance our fishery because of politics ?

[Ronje1]

Nope. I'm saying that they don't advance our fisheries because of personalities.

DAF has a cultural view that THEY own the fisheries of Qld and that THEY will dole it out. Been that way since the 70s.

They are obstructionist and have policies (very few of them available for public access or interest) designed to be in the interest of Fisheries and NOT Joe public. Its a self-serving organisation.

They have a bunch of scientists on the payroll whose salaries they can't afford and rely on grant money from places like the Fisheries Research Development Corporation (FRDC) for all sorts of unnecessary projects to pay them.

The Director - General also has a scientific background.

The projects they put up are normally claimed to be for "policy development" but then sit on shelves undeveloped for years with no policy coming from it.

Fishstocking is a good example.

The work DAF does for the Sydney Fish Market on FRDC grant money is a case in point (live mud crab industry and export).

Happy to lay out what they've been up to but this might not be the place and time. Its fact based and is an eye-opener.

Start a thread up if u like.

[ranmar850]

I've just come upon this thread, and would like to offer some Western Australian background on this.
Firstly, for those of you who haven't caught up with me on the Boating sub-forum, where I normally hide, I have an extensive background in commercial fishing. I've left it now, but skippered crayboats for 26 consecutive years, and did a fair bit of wetfish ( scale fish, mostly demersal) . I had a lot of involvement with the research side of things, both actively in the field, and sitting on various government committees as a fisherman representative, including a Research sub-committee of the Rock Lobster Industry Advisory Council.
Firstly, on general principles, you need to raise your size limits. On pretty well everything. They started over here with Tailor , raising the size limit to 300mm, and a bag limit of 8., back in 2003. Still a tiny fish, but it had the immediate effect of stopping people fishing the hell out of them in the estuaries. Oh, the wailing and lamentations. " We'll never have a feed of tailor again" Within 2 years, it was obvious it was a success, the average size of the fish off the beaches shot up. Now, plenty of tailor for everyone.
Snapper were originally 35cm. it was raised to a mix of 40 and 50 cm , depending on where you were. Overall the ocean fishery improved., and quite quickly. But snapper is WA a a genetically diverse bunch, actually often restricted to small areas, with little or no population mixing, it is believed. So, prone to overfishing when they aggregated for spawning, the old story all over the world. The Snapper Guardians thing originally mentioned is for the Cockburn/Warnboro sounds stock, which spawns there, but spreads down from Mandurah all the way up to Lancelin out of season.
Shark Bay probably has the largest snapper stocks in Australia, but with 3 separate breeding stocks. Eastern and Western Gulf fish spend their whole lives in those areas, and get very big. They were being badly overfished, they had to bring in closed seasons, an Upper Size Limit as well , and limit you to 1 fish per day(with a fixed catch, ballot system for tags, no tag, no fish) for some years to bring them back--they are now recovering. You'd been dumbstruck at the ease of catching snapper up to just under 50cm ( legal size) in shallow water in the middle of the day. Bring the bream gear, have a ball. Then get blown away when a big one turns up unexpectedly ;D You are allowed 2 fish now, but the breeding season is still closed, and there in no upper size limit.
The third stock in the bay is the ocean fish. They come all the way from at least off the Abrolhos Islands( off Geraldton) to form vast spawning aggregations in the waters off Carnarvon. These have been mercilessly hammered ( under an over-generous quota system) for many, many years. Quotas have been dropped, catches have kept dropping, and the ocean fishery has rapidly declined. This is undoubtedly the worst example of Fisheries mis-management In WA history. And they still really don't seem to get it, only just this year closing off the area of one of the main spawning aggregations . One of three areas, but I guess it's a start.

So you have a booming amateur/charter snapper fishery around Perth, due to the management of the spawning season, and a pretty ordinary. one up our way, because we rely on the oceanic stock just mentioned.

Do your Fisheries know if you have one stock, or several? Your only likely way out of it is upping the minimum size, and imposing much tighter bag limits. Or you might end up like South Australia, which once had an amazing fishery , and now has a total closure. Your expectations on size had really shrunk over the years--I'm originally a Sydney boy, spent a lot of time fishing the harbour off the ferry wharves, and it was full of 20-25cm fish. Can any of the old boys here remember the old name classifications for snapper?
Cockney bream--up to about 150mm
Red Bream -over 150mm, up to around 5 lb.
Squire--5lb to 10lb
Snapper--over 10lb.
Yes, thats right, that's what you had. None of these 35cm "squire" I see referenced over there nowadays. If you can, find a copy of TC Roughleys' "Fish and Fisheries of Australia". it was a reference bible back in the day--read it and weep , for what you had. And don't blame "the Pros" for it all-we have all been complicit in this, the grinning blokes lifting a Fourex in front of a pile of fish you couldn't climb over, when you just couldn't stop your self because they were biting so well. And the decline was well down the road before the explosion of boat numbers, too.

[ranmar850]

Photos didn't load first time.https://photos.smugmug.com/Purely-fishing/i-QBWgTDX/0/cf2e691f/L/Wa%20West%20Coast-L.jpg


https://photos.smugmug.com/Purely-fishing/i-rjJ5RgV/0/bf0bdada/L/Shark%20bay%20zones-L.jpg

Shark Bay zones

https://photos.smugmug.com/Purely-fishing/i-cW52hdT/0/ea2f459e/L/Cockburn%20Sound-L.jpg

Perth spawning area.

This will give you an idea of what we are looking at, and how the Snapper Guardians thing has worked. Completely lock out the Cockburn Sound area during spawning season--you can't even catch a snapper outside the area and bring it back through it to land---do you have areas they congregate like that to spawn, or is it just generally spread out? Much easier to manage if you can lock out an area, as they did in Cockburn, and the Eastern/Western Gulfs in Shark Bay.

[Lovey80]

I think MLS increases is the way to go. Get rid of the boat and upper size limit and implement a catch card system for Snapper and Pearlies. Enforce it hard and advertise it wide. Get some reliable data on the yearly take state wide for all sectors. Say 3 years of full data. Currently FQ have no idea as shown by the previous RRFF review a number of years back.

Then up the MLS to 45cm and leave it there for a decade and watch the data over that period. At the end of that period we should have a good understanding of stock numbers if FQ don’t go off using models to suit their expected outcomes like they did last time.

The catch card system could be easily automated into an app. Use a specific brag mat that has your own specific QR code on the mat. Each time you catch a legal snapper or pearlie that you intend to keep you pull the phone out, open the app, click snapper or Pearl perch, put the snapper on your brag mat with the QR code showing and take a picture. The date, time, tide, gps location, size etc can all be instantly taken and automatically uploaded to the FQ servers or as soon as it gets back in reception of 3G/4G.

[Ronje1]

And how was the problem sorted out?

It was managed properly.

Inclination to manage in the best interests of the public is foreign to Qld Fisheries.

Fishstocking is flavour of the day here so lets have a look at the you-beaut draft fishstocking policy in Qld.

[chris69]

And how was the problem sorted out?

It was managed properly.

Inclination to manage in the best interests of the public is foreign to Qld Fisheries.

Fishstocking is flavour of the day here so lets have a look at the you-beaut draft fishstocking policy in Qld.

The bribie island dpi did stocking for the maroochydore council a long time ago the cost was high back then but to say they have not done things they have, go pay them a visit one day you can do that but they just might throw you out after awhile of listening to you telling them how to do things and what there not doing and what they should do.

[Ronje1]

Been there, Chris. It's in Deception Bay not Bribie Is.

The DPI research station there was simply a research station. It was managed by a DPI guy called Mike Dredge ex Bundaberg. Mike was a scientist not a fisheries manager. From memory it fell into disrepair and closed. There was talk of refurbishing it. Don't know if that happened.

Deception Bay research station staff undertook project work for organisations requesting it AFTER Brisbane DAF manages the project to death and organises payment. There's always payment involved.

Easy to get the two confused, eh Chris.

It wasn't (and still isn't) a managerial arm of the Dept Agriculture and Fisheries Qld. DAF for short.

Managing fisheries for Qlders is the job of the managerial wing of DAF. They're based in Brisbane.

AND that's where the cultural problem with Fisheries lies. In Brisbane head office. The decision making centre of Qld fisheries universe.

There's a fish stocking thread on the forum. Go over there and there's an invitation to chat. It hasn't had an entry since 2016 when the SIP scheme was changed.

[Lovey80]

Phill I’m not sure what the wild stocking would do over say decent MLS increases. I’d love to know the expected extra recruitment we’d get from a jump from 35 to 45cm. What is the growth time from 35-45cm? How many spawning cycles would we get in that time?. What would the expected morbidity of the larger protected group size be? Are areas like Moreton Bay where large amounts of spawning happens and a % of those fish move deeper, or is it just another area it happens as well as offshore?

Could other related programmes be beneficial? Like maybe those large parts of the really shallow inner Bay Area could be turned into areas full of little mangrove islands? Could those islands be built in such a way to greatly increase the number of oysters filtering bay water? Could snapper and other target fish bait species being stocked provide a cheaper means of encouraging natural recruitment? Bigger food biomass bigger larger food biomass etc etc??

Are these ideas worth exploring?

We all get why fisheries have switched their thinking from managing a sustainable fishery and ensuring no collapse of a species to looking at virgin biomass and new arbitrary figures as to what is “sustainable”. For years, their controls had outcomes and for years they told us their previous controls had benefits that ensured that the fishery was sustainable and not at threat of collapse. So to try to remain relevant and keep their jobs they steal another region of the worlds model on “sustainability” and realise this % of virgin biomass theory means a new set of goals to work towards that keeps them in jobs for the next 20 years.

Soon they’ll be wanting GPS trackers and live feed video cameras to monitor us all on the water 24/7. They’ll also tell us we have to pay for the equipment.

[chris69]

Been there, Chris. It's in Deception Bay not Bribie Is.

The DPI research station there was simply a research station. It was managed by a DPI guy called Mike Dredge ex Bundaberg. Mike was a scientist not a fisheries manager. From memory it fell into disrepair and closed. There was talk of refurbishing it. Don't know if that happened.

Deception Bay research station staff undertook project work for organisations requesting it AFTER Brisbane DAF manages the project to death and organises payment. There's always payment involved.

Easy to get the two confused, eh Chris.

It wasn't (and still isn't) a managerial arm of the Dept Agriculture and Fisheries Qld. DAF for short.

Managing fisheries for Qlders is the job of the managerial wing of DAF. They're based in Brisbane.

AND that's where the cultural problem with Fisheries lies. In Brisbane head office. The decision making centre of Qld fisheries universe.

There's a fish stocking thread on the forum. Go over there and there's an invitation to chat. It hasn't had an entry since 2016 when the SIP scheme was changed.
No theres one on Bribie too the Aquaculture center.

[gazza2006au]

I watched a prawn clip today it spoke about the trawlers and how they are sustaining the prawns without over harvesting they mentioned the trawlers are locked out of area untill someone measures the wild stock they allow suffient time for the prawns to bounce back before allowing the trawlers into certain locations seemed to work really well

[Noelm]

Gaz, that's what Marine Parks are supposed to do, kind of, rec anglers hate Marine Parks.

[Ronje1]

No theres one on Bribie too the Aquaculture center

You're right. Thanks for that.$9 million worth built in 2009. 60 (or more by now) staff. That's where a lot of the budget money has gone. Drunken sailor spending sprees.

Accounts for why the Deception Bay facility was allowed to run down. Looks like there are others spread around Qld as well.

Its called an Eco-research Centre.

I think boating patrol works out of there as well.

[Lovey80]

Gaz, that's what Marine Parks are supposed to do, kind of, rec anglers hate Marine Parks.

marine parks in QLD, we were told, were specifically for protecting habitat. There is zero justification of marine parks/green zones for stock management.

[gazza2006au]

Gaz, that's what Marine Parks are supposed to do, kind of, rec anglers hate Marine Parks.

Ah yeah i didnt see it like that bugger it did seem the areas are open to trawlers more frequently like on a rotating thing

With marine parks for fishing once they go in place they never get lifted sadly

[Lucky_Phill]

This just in:-

https://www.facebook.com/KeepAustraliaFishing/posts/3694233720619748?notif_id=1610523340669680&notif_t=comment_mention&ref=notif


LP

[chris69]

Any idea how big these fingerlings are Phill, it would be interesting to know how long its taken to get to release size as you no there slow growing.

[bluefin59]

Any idea how big these fingerlings are Phill, it would be interesting to know how long its taken to get to release size as you no there slow growing.

40-60 mm 150,000 of the little suckers . Matt

[Lucky_Phill]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-13/snapper-fingerlings-to-be-released-to-boost-sa-fish-stocks/13054414?fbclid=IwAR1KcNnYMn3LovGD1rfSavG6Us7kO5YD TI4ROrECrFRI3dVnBy5PBmPH_b0

[Dirtyfuzz]

Bump, just happened to see a fishing show on the snapper guardian program with Al mcglashan, very cool idea, the spawning vortex that occurs in Cockburn sound would be an amazing spectacle to behold

[Lovey80]

40-60 mm 150,000 of the little suckers . Matt

Thats a hard number that looks great on paper. 150k. Tangible effort. Tangible effort that may bear fruit and probably will.

While I’m not against stocking, all for it. But I’d love to know exactly what the models suggest the recruitment increases would be by protecting all of the 35-45cm models from catches over a 5-10 year period?. How many extra spawning would we expect to see from the current biomass (and increasing biomass) over time if that bracket was protected? How many of them would make it to the 60mm+ size?

FQ seem to be more worried about the biomass and the number of larger individuals left in it (growth overfished I believe the call it). While stating at the same time the old 5x35cm regs left no room for a collapse.

it’s all interesting and all anecdotal. The models are just that and they have no real idea. We will go around in circles on this until we can gather some real solid data on actual catches. Numbers and sizes. They claim Recs are the largest take of Snapper. Yet there’s no will to get the evidence of that outside of tiny percentages from boat ramp surveys that get extrapolated using ridiculous metrics for doing so.

Until we get to the point FQ are using super solid data on Rec catches like they do for commercial, we run the risk of mathematics geeks running the latest “Monte Carlo” model to suggest further action is required. If there’s no further action required there’s no need for FQ scientists. We’re stuck in a negative loop.

[Lucky_Phill]

As we speak, there is a Rocky Reef working group gathering data and ideas for management of this fishery ( Snapper, Pearl Perch, Teraglin Jew and Kingfish ) Well, it started back in 2018 and to date have had a number of meetings and I am sure they will be able to put out discussion paper very soon. Thing is, and only in my opinion, by the time FQ decide to " investigate " a fishery, discus it, gather a working group, toss up ideas, produce a paper, summarise it, send it to the minister etc, soo much time has passed, the fishery looks nothing like when it was first identified for appraisal.

There will be changes to the Recreational, Commercial and Charter rules when the final analysis is complete.

Unfortunately, those that have a financial stake in the fishery will attempt to look after themselves ( livelihood ). What FQ do not understand and grossly underestimate is the " stake " recreational fishers have in the fishery and moreso the dollar value rec fishers have in terms of Economic Benefit to the State. Recreational Anglers are the biggest stakeholder in all Queenslands Fisheries, and yet have a minor say in outcomes. This is due to a number of reasons and let's face it, there are very few rec anglers that will work with FQ, again, for a number of reasons. If anyone here would like a chance to sit on the RR working group, message me now, and I can get you a seat. FQ are not the enemy, in fact there are many many FQ people that are good people, keen fishos and sympathise with us. I don't have to tell you how Govt Policy over-rules common sense in a lot of matters.

The recreational sector in under-represented on this working group.:(

Let's also be honest, the whole Queensland Marine Fishery is in decline and in some cases over-fished. The band-aid approach, in my opinion, taken by FQ ( The Govt ) over many years is not working. Same old, same old... bag limits, boat limits, closures, size limits.... I've heard it a thousand times. It is time for FQ to think outside the box. That may happen, but it has to get passed the Ivory Tower buffoons who are simply chasing votes to appease minorities. Despite many attempts in the past, and I will say I have been involved in, creating artificial reefs having been the subject of “ Greenie Sabotage “. We have destroyed large portions of marine habitat, undertaken widespread commercial activities, huge uptake in the tourism ( charter ) industry and seen an explosion of recreational angling and all the powers that be can do is, “ same old , same old “. It’s broken FQ, and you are putting a band-aid on it. It will never heal unless you invest in a cure.

Don't be surprised people, if the Rocky Reef Fishery is shut down completely for a year or two. I doubt that will happen due the Influence of certain " financial stakeholders ".. ><>

All , imo of course.

[BigE]

Interesting take ,,, the people who are saying there are no snapper left ....... are they the same ones saying that shark are on the verge on extinction???

you can't be fishing near me cause i don't have any issues catching snapper or sharks for that matter.

just an observation

BigE

[Lovey80]

Phill if I was in the country I’d stick my hand up as I bleat on about it enough that I should put my money where my mouth is. I’m sadly working overseas ATM so won’t be able to contribute.

[chris69]

Just read the Rocky reef fishery bref Phill you know that not everyone here would qualify to sit down with these guys and that was when i read ......What is reasonable behaviour .......

[tunaticer]

Stocking snapper is pretty pointless if they don't increase the minimum size to 50cm for both rec and commercial fishers.

Would you want your family being responsible to breed effectively at 12 years of age then harvested at 13 years of age??

FFS the fish grows to a metre plus.

[Noelm]

While what you say might be true (in some locations) that very thing is one of the issues that needs sorting out, like dozens of other problems, if I was in QLD I would be onto this real quick. Just to anyone who is prepared to give up your time, get ready for frustration and what seems like never ending dead ends, but, it's worth the effort, I have been in a few Gov run groups and most had a bit of a positive outcome, but still frustrating, nothing just "gets done" it's not that simple.