Trailer question

[randell]

A friend has a Fraser 5.4 mtr boat with a big E tech on the back, total weight , about 2 ton.
Just wondering if the single axle trailer he bought with the package can handle it?
It's a Escort trailer....
How big a boat should you go twin axle trailer.
thanks
randell

[johncar]

Hi Randell, There is not really enough information there to make any definitive comments.
But generally you first need to look at the tyre and rim capacity and if they are rated to the load, then you need to work back to your suspension and axle. So the springs would need to be measured assuming normal leaf springs, so the leaf thickness, how wide, and how many leaves.
then the axle, measure the diameter if round or the width if square. Any trailer parts shop such as Probar Caboolture will be able to give you some ratings of components, they are very knowlegable and helpful.
If it is a recently built trailer then it should have a compliance plate on it stating the ATM and GTM, if not then you will have to do all the maths.

With run of the mill components, most boat trailers go to about 1500KG before going to dual axle, but there heavier single axle setups available that can go up to about 1900KG but less common. Of course you can go into commercial vehicle setups after that which go much higher but very rare on boat trailers as dual axle is more cost effective.

[rowanda]

5.4m 2 ton? Must be a very solid boat.....prob towards the max load for a single but as above, depends on many different things

[whiteman]

My experience is the tyres are the issue. I've upgraded mine twice after blowing out rubber that should have handled the load but weren't up to it. And blowing a boat tyre puts a lot of pressure on any loose bolts, particularly around the brakes.

[tassjo]

hi ,just to put my 5cents in ,i purchaced a new bayliner cuddy on a twin axle trailer,just on 2 ton.the trailer has a breakaway system fitted which is law in nsw.What i found while doing my home work is in the usa this boat is on a single axle trailer.After using this boat for 6 months u would not have it on a single axle trailer(it would tow like a pig)The other problem you might have with a single axle trailer is the ball weight on the towball would be excessive.

[wrxhoon]

Escort trailers are USA built, part of Brunswick corp, unless someone uses the name here .
In USA they use heavy singles because they tow with pick up trucks, if she has 6 stud hubs she will have 5500 lb axles and 15" tyres, depending on the tyres used she could be good for well over 2000 kg.

[SunnyCoastMark]

Hey Randell,
2 ton on a single axle is absolutely too much - for a lot of reasons. Too much ball weight; high risk of blowing a tyre; a lot of stress on chassis & drawbar - not to mention the cars rear end. Will tow like pig etc. etc.
You need to convert to Tandem. It will tow a lot better. If you have a flat - you can still drive it safely on 3 wheels to find a safe spot to replace the wheel. The trailer will basically almost support it's own weight with the towing vehicle just there to pull it along.

First step though, is to run it over a weighbridge to find out what she really weighs.

Mark

[randell]

Thanks guys for your comments.
Bluey plans to weigh it today and is interested in a 2nd hand tandem, although he says it tows like a dream, but has blown a couple of tyres.
The trailer need a few u bolts replaced..... and the brake disks.........

Any 2nd tandems around, but it has to fit the Fraser Formula 1994-6 ?
I'll post the weight...

thanks from Bluey, an ex Tweed fisher.
randell

[finga]

I have to disagree on the too much ball weight and towing like a pig with a 2 ton boat on a single axle trailer.
If it's set up well it'll tow better then a tandem setup that's set up poorly or even ordinary.
Actually in a lot of cases I reckon a well thought out and setup single axle trailer would be better then a tamdem trailer.
Cheers Alfred

[Dan5]

i agree with Alfie on that........2T single axle is fine if set up properly.

Dan

[SunnyCoastMark]

I have to disagree on the too much ball weight and towing like a pig with a 2 ton boat on a single axle trailer.
If it's set up well it'll tow better then a tandem setup that's set up poorly or even ordinary.
Actually in a lot of cases I reckon a well thought out and setup single axle trailer would be better then a tamdem trailer.
Cheers Alfred

hmmmmm - that's a bit of a blanket statement there finga and somewhat confusing. Obviously, even a well set up single axle trailer will outperform a poorly set up tandem. Given that a tandem is properly built - with the axles and winch post in the right place - there is no comparison between the two. - It's like chalk and cheese.

With 2 ton on a single axle trailer - you would have to have the axle pretty far forward - otherwise you are going to have 500 kgs or more on the ball. With the axle that far forward - I wouldn't want to be driving at highway speeds.

A well made tandem will put far less stress on both the actual trailer and the towing vehicle; be way safer to tow. In my view (and you might say I have a bit of expreience in this area:P) any set up that is more than 1.5 tonne GVM, should be on a tandem axle.

Mark

[SunnyCoastMark]

i agree with Alfie on that........2T single axle is fine if set up properly.

Dan

Only if you are towing with a V8 Landcruiser/F250 or better...................

[finga]

hmmmmm - that's a bit of a blanket statement there finga and somewhat confusing. Obviously, even a well set up single axle trailer will outperform a poorly set up tandem. Given that a tandem is properly built - with the axles and winch post in the right place - there is no comparison between the two. - It's like chalk and cheese.
Why is it chalk and cheese??
That's a blanket statement
If they're both set up OK then a single axle will probably suit a lot of people better seeing they're easier to maneuver into tight spots like peoples back yards without scrubbing tyres out and less maintenance due to the fact of having only one axle, one set of brakes and only two tyres.

With 2 ton on a single axle trailer - you would have to have the axle pretty far forward - otherwise you are going to have 500 kgs or more on the ball. With the axle that far forward - I wouldn't want to be driving at highway speeds.
Why do you have to have the axle towards the front??
Balance point, or ball weight on a single axle trailer can be exactly the same as with a tandem trailer. All you have to do is move the axle about a bit to get the correct ball weight.

A well made tandem will put far less stress on both the actual trailer and the towing vehicle; be way safer to tow. In my view (and you might say I have a bit of expreience in this area:P) any set up that is more than 1.5 tonne GVM, should be on a tandem axle.
A well made single axle trailer will be made in the same manner. Consideration such as strength within the trailer for it's intended purpose would be paramount wouldn't it?
What is wrong with having the structure designed to carry 2 ton? If the frame, springs, axle, wheels and brakes are well within the specifications then there should never be a problem.
Most problems occur when people use under-rated items on their trailers. Tyres with incorrect load/speed ratings is a prime example.
Why is a tandem less stress on the prime mover??

Mark


Only if you are towing with a V8 Landcruiser/F250 or better...................
Why?? My Pajero can tow 2.5ton. No mention of dual axle necessary.
What is the downward ball weight rating on a cruiser or F truck??
The design and setup of the trailer is the crucial factor. If a single or dual axle trailer is not set up well then it'll handle like a pig at any more then 60km/hr
I have 'adjusted' the axles of dual trailers that have been over 50mm out of 'triangulation' in relation to the hitch point. No wonder it was 'crabbing' and not handling.

I would love for someone to explain to me the specifics why a tandem axle trailer is safer then a single axle trailer if they are both set up well and they're both designed for their intended purpose of moving a 2 ton boat.

Cheers Alfred

[Jarrah Jack]

One thing and it has been mentioned, getting a flat, give me a tandem any day. The heavier the boat the more things can go pear shaped when having a flat at speed or a failed bearing.

[SunnyCoastMark]

Why?? My Pajero can tow 2.5ton. No mention of dual axle necessary.
What is the downward ball weight rating on a cruiser or F truck??
The design and setup of the trailer is the crucial factor. If a single or dual axle trailer is not set up well then it'll handle like a pig at any more then 60km/hr
I have 'adjusted' the axles of dual trailers that have been over 50mm out of 'triangulation' in relation to the hitch point. No wonder it was 'crabbing' and not handling.

I would love for someone to explain to me the specifics why a tandem axle trailer is safer then a single axle trailer if they are both set up well and they're both designed for their intended purpose of moving a 2 ton boat.

Cheers Alfred


Hey Finga,
OK, I will try to fit in as much as possible, while I am having a morning tea break(such as it is). Firstly, the ONLY advantage that you have with a single axle trailer is that it is easier to move around by hand in a confined area. Mind you - I don't think I would like to be manhandling 2 tons around anyway.
That being said - you can easily move a tandem trailer with non load sharing suspension around reasonably easy as well, simply be winding the Jockey wheel right up - thereby taking some of the weight off the front wheels. Or by pushing the nose of the trailer, to the ground - taking weight off the back wheels. How easy this is depends on a number of factors relating to trailer design, where the weight and balance point is etc. So it is very much a suck it and see scenario.

Other than that - evrything else - is in favour of a tandem axle trailer:-

1) 4 wheels on the ground versus 2. Has to be twice as stable as the load is spread out over a larger area.

2) 2 sets of wheels - will track (follow behind) better than only 1. - Of course, they have to be set up correctly.

3) If you have a flat tyre - it is quite safe to continue driving (carefully) until you either get to a safe stopping point to change the wheel - or even drive to the closest garage, home - wherever. - With a single axle - you have to stop wherever you are - often in the worst possible place, with no road verge. If you don't have a spare - you are in trouble.

4) As above - if you have a blow out at highway speed on a single axle - there is a very real chance of either; flipping the boat and trailer; being thrown into the next lane, oncoming traffic - or off the road altogether. This risk is even greater when you have 2 ton behind you.

5)Re;- Towball weight and towbar rating. Most family 6 cyl cars - have downward load ratings of 100 - 150kgs max; - 4wd's with 2.5t rating would be up to about 200- 220kgs; - 4wd's rated to 3500kgs; - around 250kgs - some up to 300kgs but that is about it. Now if you have 2 ton on a single pivot point - of course you are going to have a substantial amount of weight on the ball. - certainly a lot more than the average family 6 or mid sized 4WD is legally rated for. That is why your axles and springs are on a sub frame - as well as the winch post - so they can be moved to find that sweet spot, that allows the boat to be towed at highway speeds without fishtailing whilst still maintaing a correct ball weight. Tandem axle trailers can support the entire load weight on 4 wheels - and the towing vehicle is simply there to pull it along the road. As above, you need to position the boat correctly on the trailer to comply with the downward load rating.

That is why I say only with a vehicle rated to at least 3 ton that has a downward load rating of more that 250kgs.

I could probably add a bit more and I hope what I have said makes sense - as I don't really have time to edit it ATM

Mark

[Spaniard_King]

Been through this saga of late and its very easy to get lost in the ratings of equiptment fitted to trailers.

The standard for Australia is anything over 1500kgs requires dual axle... why is this... welll most trailer manufacturers use ford and Holden bearings.... the ford bearing having the larger diameter stubs has the highest rating of 1500 kgs hence over 1500 dual or tandem axles are required.

The 2000kg axle groupe is a big pain in the rear end.... what till ya got to deal with trojan trailer parts.... 8 week wait on a 2000kg duratorque axle....F$%^#

[tassjo]

hi mark,just to clear up a few things re: ball weight.I drive a ba falcon & tow my boat at just 2 ton give & take.There is 2 types of towbars for this car 1 is rated at 1600kg, max ball weight is 160kg the other towbar is rated at 2300kg with max ball weight of 230kg.The max towing capacity of the falcon is 2300kg.As you can see the max ball weight is 10% of the towbars rating.Before you all come on and tell me i am wrong,I sell & distribute towbar for a living,you should aim for about 65 to 75% on the ball.hope that helps.

[SunnyCoastMark]

hi mark,just to clear up a few things re: ball weight.I drive a ba falcon & tow my boat at just 2 ton give & take.There is 2 types of towbars for this car 1 is rated at 1600kg, max ball weight is 160kg the other towbar is rated at 2300kg with max ball weight of 230kg.The max towing capacity of the falcon is 2300kg.As you can see the max ball weight is 10% of the towbars rating.Before you all come on and tell me i am wrong,I sell & distribute towbar for a living,you should aim for about 65 to 75% on the ball.hope that helps.

Hey Tassjo,
When you say that you should aim for 65 - 70% on the ball - 65 - 70% of what? - the max ball weight? So if the max ball weight is 200kg - you should aim for around 130 - 140 kg ball weight?

Kind of puts a bit of a concern on a 2 ton single axle trailer doesn't it?

I doubt any insurance company would cover an accident claim with that set up.

Curiously my Navara is rated to 3500kg - but has a towball down weight of only 250kg - so the 10% is not always the case?

Mark

Mark

Mark

[tassjo]

hi mark i agree with you on the insurance companny side of things.i also agree it should be twin axle trailer.but as for the ball weight is concerned you could be wrong ,i can post the specs later on if you give me the model and year of you navara.Did you get your specs of the towbar or from your manual .MOST CASES IT IS 10% OF MAX TOWING CAPACITY,CHECK THE PLATE ON THE TOWBAR.I DOUBT HAYMAN REESE TOWBARS GET IT WRONG,we also sell weight distribution systems.if it helps the less ball weight you have the more wonder you get.when i bought my new bayliner 6 months ago . i took the boat & trailer down to the weighbridge.i measured the height of the trailer connected to the car ,then i disconnected the trailer and put a car stand under the trailer hitch at the same height & checked the weight ,i had to move the boat back around 130mm ,got the weight to 180kg.tows perfect,hope that helps a little

[SunnyCoastMark]

Specs came from the towbar - factory fitted - 2006 4WD Navara D22 Ute

[Spaniard_King]

Hey Tassjo,
When you say that you should aim for 65 - 70% on the ball - 65 - 70% of what? - the max ball weight? So if the max ball weight is 200kg - you should aim for around 130 - 140 kg ball weight?

Kind of puts a bit of a concern on a 2 ton single axle trailer doesn't it?

I doubt any insurance company would cover an accident claim with that set up.

Curiously my Navara is rated to 3500kg - but has a towball down weight of only 250kg - so the 10% is not always the case?

Mark

Mark

Mark

Mark, The D22 is not rated to 3500kg's, your tow bar may say this but read your owners manual it's not 3500 kgs

[tassjo]

hi mark have a look at your manual i think the towing capacity is only 3000kg so your max ball weight should be between 280 to 300kg going of the haymanreece web site but i will check on monday if your like.

[tassjo]

as for factory fitted we also supply dealerships with these towbars ,eg toyota my friends audi 4x4,the list is long

[Spaniard_King]

hi mark have a look at your manual i think the towing capacity is only 3000kg so your max ball weight should be between 280 to 300kg going of the haymanreece web site but i will check on monday if your like.


Only the D40 is rated to 3000kg... The D22 is somewhat lesser like 2800kg

[finga]

Been through this saga of late and its very easy to get lost in the ratings of equiptment fitted to trailers.

The standard for Australia is anything over 1500kgs requires dual axle... why is this... welll most trailer manufacturers use ford and Holden bearings.... the ford bearing having the larger diameter stubs has the highest rating of 1500 kgs hence over 1500 dual or tandem axles are required.

The 2000kg axle groupe is a big pain in the rear end.... what till ya got to deal with trojan trailer parts.... 8 week wait on a 2000kg duratorque axle....F$%^#
Yes the standard in Australia for over 1500kgs is tandem. It is not from Australian Standards though.
Most trailers over 1500kg are dual axle because of cost, availability, logistics.
As an instance....
From Active Fabrications.
1400kg braked axle electric brakes- $370
2000kg braked axle electric brakes-$686
So you can pretty well get 2 axles for the price of one and have a higher axle group rating.

Springs......easily located springs are at most rated to 1400-1500kgs as a single spring. It's hard to find single springs rated over the 1500kg.
A dual axle spring set up start at about $211 for a basic setup to about $418 for a rock rolla setup rated to 2000kg
So cost is a huge part in going dual axle

I'm building a tandem trailer soon.
It's going to be rated to 3500kgs.
Should I be using 3 axles or two seeing max. for one axle seems to be 1500kgs as tyres blow and cars break in half??

Nope. I'm using 2 axles on the tandem trailer. It would be cheaper to go 3 axles but that, to me, would be a huge pain in the butt.
I'm using Dexter hubs and 61mm axles and 12 inch electric brakes.
The axles are rated at 3000kgs each. Tyres are rated to 1200kgs each.
I could use one of those axles on a well designed boat trailer and be perfectly safe.
Why aren't they used?? Cost and design problems.
They cost about $900 each axle and tyres start at about 15" in diameter.
So cost is a huge factor why I should go 3 axles and the high riding height for the trailer is another factor not looked for in a boat trailer.

I still cannot see why a single axle trailer needs to place a huge ball weight on the car IF it is designed correctly for the boat that's going to sit on it.
The biggest reason trailer buck and place more weight on the towball when they're bucking is because the spring ratings are too high.
So often you see springs rated to 1500kgs with a 800kg boat on it. No wonder it bucks.
The suspension is not doing it's job. A comparison is the ride in a 60 series Landcruiser ute with no load. It'll knock the filling out of your teeth. Place 800kgs in the back and it's cumfy. The suspension is working instead of bucking.

[Spaniard_King]

Scott, have you looked at the duratorque axles... rubber springy thing inside the axle ???

[finga]

Scott, have you looked at the duratorque axles... rubber springy thing inside the axle ???
Yep. I have one on the trailer that goes on the back of the motorcycle and one on the trailer that I use to cart the ride-on about on.
Brilliant they are :)

But they rust up easy on boat trailer. There's one sitting in Brisbane if you want it....A rusty one that is.

Cheers Alfred.

[upstart]

I had a tyre blow out the other day. The boat is a 540 Northbank and I was traveling at 90kmh when it happened on our local goat track (Bruce Highway) between Townsville and Ayr.
I tow with a 2010 BT50 and when it blew there was a bit of a pull to the side but everything was very controllable. No heart in the mouth stuff. At a guess there's about 100 kg of weight on the towball.
79920

[LittleSkipper]

I had a tyre blow out the other day. The boat is a 540 Northbank and I was traveling at 90kmh when it happened on our local goat track (Bruce Highway) between Townsville and Ayr.
I tow with a 2010 BT50 and when it blew there was a bit of a pull to the side but everything was very controllable. No heart in the mouth stuff. At a guess there's about 100 kg of weight on the towball.
79920

What was the condition of the tyre before blowout?

[tassjo]

the other advantage of having twin axles is you have 4 wheels with brakes not 2,well thats how my trailer is setup.i have a hydrostar system with breakaway operating 4 brake calipers,can even deactivate the brakes while reversing via the brake controller.to have a single axle trailer on my boat which is 6m the axle would have to be mounted a fair way foward or the boat set back on the trailer quite a bit so you dont exceed the max ball wieght.

[Mister]

You have to go with SunnyCoastMark on this one, tandem trailer for all the reasons above. There is no logic that supports a single axle trailer once up around the 2 tonne mark. It really does help in this type of discussion to specify what the actual weight is, ATM or GTM?

[WalrusLike]

So to my untutored eye that blowout looks like a single axle trailer. Is that correct?

I must admit I have been wondering what my single axle would do in those circumstances.

[bigjimg]

I had a tyre blow out the other day. The boat is a 540 Northbank and I was traveling at 90kmh when it happened on our local goat track (Bruce Highway) between Townsville and Ayr.
I tow with a 2010 BT50 and when it blew there was a bit of a pull to the side but everything was very controllable. No heart in the mouth stuff. At a guess there's about 100 kg of weight on the towball.
79920
Gday Upstart,If you can post up the tyre specs here so we can see what is happening to a tyre fit for the purpose.Or possibly not fit for purpose.Not saying it was or wasn't but many reasons for that tyre to go bang.The same can occur with a tandem setup if a tyre gets a slow puncture and heats up then shreds itself.It has nothing to do with the rating if a tyre decides to pop,are they steel belted?Jim

[randell]

Thanks guys again, Bluey has made a deal to buy a tandem with rollers........................ for his 1995 Fraser Formula 5.3 mtrs
He learned a lot form reading the forum.
randell