Where does your friction knot break?

[MackerelMan]

For those that pop / jig with PR, FG, Sebile knot where do they fail when tested to destruction and do you find it changes with mono or fluro. Also do you think / suspect / doubt you are getting 100 percent as some people suggest is possible. A recent thread has prompted me to review my setup whilst the wind is up.

I find they all invariably break where the braid bites across itself, usually about half way down the wraps.

Cheers

[Noelm]

I sort of doubt any type of knot will give a true 100% mainline strength, and all will fail where line either crosses itself, or another line cosses it, regardless of the type of material, whether it be mono, or even rope, the result will always be the same, now a couple of things come into play here, friction when the knot is tied may result in a knot breaking in a couple of different places.

[MackerelMan]

I sort of doubt any type of knot will give a true 100% mainline strength, and all will fail where line either crosses itself, or another line cosses it, regardless of the type of material, whether it be mono, or even rope, the result will always be the same, now a couple of things come into play here, friction when the knot is tied may result in a knot breaking in a couple of different places.

Thanks Noel, thats the point of the question, is this failure consistent with other folk using friction knots. I cannot get 100, some reckon they can. Is this due to different materials, technique, subtle variation in method / finishing or just plain crap. Perhaps all of the above!

[Si]

some people think they are getting 100% but the rated breaking strain of their braid compared to actual breaking strain (which is often higher) effects the percentage outcome. a lot of braids break at higher than their stated breaking strains.

i agree with Noelm in that it would be hard to get 100%. First you need to know what your ACTUAL breaking strain of your braid or mono is. Even the bimini twist often stated to give 100% has been found to give below its actual breaking strain. Having said that though, IMO, the friction knots generally give better results than standard leader connections like the albright, slim beauty etc. My PR knot will usually fail just above the knot in the main line.

[MackerelMan]

Thats one of the interesting issue, is it 100 of actual or 100 of stated. I sort of agree that actual breaking strain is important but we all use knots so knotted BS is more important to me. If I am using 50ib braid I aim to get my rigs to break as close to 50 as I can, even if actual is 70.

[chris69]

To quote Rod Harrison accidents happen at cornners and roundabouts and knots for mainlines and leaders have many varibles when tieing them ,were theres a human involved there will be many unknow factors relating to this problem,some leaders absorb water so its not until i gets in the water will you no,fluro carbon leader doesnt like the cold water ive had a few knots break in winter early morning,if ive had a bimini break its always been the main line at the start of the twist,knot fatiuge has a bit to do with things i think, in how long its been tied for and how many fish you have caught on the knots tied.

[MackerelMan]

Thanks Chris, good point. If you pull hard enough something will break. I have often wondered if you can say as a general rule that if friction knot x is tied properly it will break at a certain spot and that is as good as you can hope for, regardless of the quoted or actual breaking strain. I have had many test friction and biminis break at the main line just above the knot which I suspect is from damage caused to the main line during finishing ie doing half hitches etc. To overcome this I have tried other finishes which result in breakages alomg the wraps, which is the better failure I am not sure, hence the question.

Cheers

[Noelm]

to demonstrate friction and its affect on line, just try this, tie a length of (say) 50lb mono to something, grab the end and pull it tight, now get a common old hankie (or a piece of rag) and wrap it around the line and pinch it tight with your fingers and give it a quick rub back and forth, the mono will vanish in a jiffy! the same thing can happen when tieing a knot, the section that has some other line "slipped" over/acoss it can be damaged, causing the line to break away from the actual knot, making you think you have a better than 100% knot, get what I mean?

[MackerelMan]

Sorry no idea about the hankie anology in relation to friction knots. You realise we are talking about chinese finger trap type knots here and not about one line sliding across another causing a hot (weak) spot. There is no cinching as such when tying these knots.

http://www.#########.com/forum/index.php?topic=1440.0

[MackerelMan]

Insert "g t p o p p i n g" where hashed out.

[Noelm]

yep, I do realise that, but ALL knots/gizmos that attach two lines together have a friction point somewhere, I know the mono test is not exactly the same thing, but in a way it is, the method of attaching can "slip" and cause damage to the mono/braid/rope/whatever slightly away from the actual resting point, this damage can be very hard to see, but will damage the main line to well below it's rated/expected strength, get what I mean?

[Tangles]

my 2 cents, since using the PR knot ive found the braid will break just above the knot, especially if ive hooked up solid to mother earth,

[cameron walker]

Try an improved albright knot were u double the braid , 5 turns up 3back down lots of spit and make it pretty. The line will snap at your hook to mono knot every time

[grave41]

Hi,
A; your not going to get 100% out of any knot.
B; the pr knot is going to be the closest to it.
A mate of mine hooked up to what we though was reel while jigging, we had to motor directly above it with the 2 of us on the rod to break it free.the rod was a shimano 400 deep jig line 80lb jigman leader 100lb fluouorcarbon shimano torsa 20 drag maxed out .Nothing broke not leader ,briad or pr knot up came a bucket full of 150lb mono with growths all over it. It took 200kgs hauling on that rod and reel and we still couldnt break the pr knot.Now my mate who laughed at me while tying the knot for him is being taught how to tie it. THATS good enough for me!!!!
Graham

[Si]

Hi,
A; your not going to get 100% out of any knot.
B; the pr knot is going to be the closest to it.
A mate of mine hooked up to what we though was reel while jigging, we had to motor directly above it with the 2 of us on the rod to break it free.the rod was a shimano 400 deep jig line 80lb jigman leader 100lb fluouorcarbon shimano torsa 20 drag maxed out .Nothing broke not leader ,briad or pr knot up came a bucket full of 150lb mono with growths all over it. It took 200kgs hauling on that rod and reel and we still couldnt break the pr knot.Now my mate who laughed at me while tying the knot for him is being taught how to tie it. THATS good enough for me!!!!
Graham

yes Ive had a simliar situation pulling up big logs with the knot holding, extreme pressure. Tells me its a good one. slowly getting better at tying it too.

when i need to do a quick strong knot, i do a improved slim beauty or double uni.