Starting a project boat......?

[WalFish]

G’day all. All of these posts about fibreglass project boats has got me thinking and seriously contemplating a project of my own. While I have a perfectly good boat in the Formosa Tomahawk, there is nothing quite like the feeling you have of building something yourself and then enjoying it. I have done a little bit of fibre glassing, nothing serious, and reckon that I would like to give a project boat a serious go.
I have done a bit of research into the boats I would be looking at, mainly in the 20 to 23 foot length bracket. There is an old Bertram 20 ft half cabin inboard around the corner from my house which hasn’t moved in the 6 years I have lived at my current address. The owner has taken the motor out and that is as far as it has gone in that time. This boat, or something similar is what I am after – it would need a heap of work, but I am a fairly patient bloke, and would need to be after reading some of the threads on here about similar tasks. I want something I can fit a full width pod to and repower with a nice 4 stroke outboard, put a small stove, sink, fridge etc in so that I can go to the reef or up a river somewhere and live aboard comfortably for a few days. Fit a solar panel or two so power is never a worry. Problem is, I wouldn’t know where to start once I stripped the guts out. I would love any advice anyone can give on the suitability of an old Bertram, or any other boat that they reckon would suit my project. Any tips on where to research how to tackle such a project would be more than welcome also. I have a thousand questions:
1. Is the Bertram style hull suitable for this type of project or am I better off chasing a different make of hull? There is nothing like the ride of a heavy old fibreglass hull.
2. If I make a pod, what would be the pros and cons of a full width pod versus a narrow pod and also the pros and cons of an aluminium pod bolted to the transom as opposed to glassing on a fibreglass pod?
3. Stringers… I guess from the other threads that these are removed (hopefully in one piece) and used as a template for the replacement one which is then cut and tapered and glassed in. What is the best non-timber product to use for this, and can someone describe in detail the process for glassing one of these in, or point out a good place to research this process?
4. Transom. Having read a few threads on the transom, what would make me decide to come from the inside as opposed to the outside, what product should I use and how thick do I need to go?
5. Transom details I suppose will be driven by engine size. What size donk will I need to push a 20 ft Bertram (or similar boat), extended with a 20 inch full width pod?
6. Gelcoat versus 2 pack? Why would I use one instead of the other? I can see that 2 pack would be easier in application, but why do people persist in using gelcoat if it is so hard to get a good finish on? Is it because of durability or overall pride in the finished product?
7. All of the work above the waterline – cupboards, bunks, seatboxes etc – can this be done with ply instead of some synthetic product to save cash on the dearer synthetic or is it better to do it all in synthetics for durability etc?
As a bit of a minor works project to practice a bit of fibre glassing, I have decided to make some new seat boxes up for my current boat. I have a 60 litre WAECO fridge that I want to fit into the boat. There are currently seat boxes fitted but they are pretty useless by design and are really just wasted space. I want to make two boxes up, one for each side – one will have the fridge in it and the other will have a esky (that I will make) fitted. Both will be designed with the seat at the front end on the swivel mount, with the rear end a bit lower with a cushion for passengers. The fridge and esky will be mounted on sliding runners and will be accessed by sliding out the back of the seat boxes. So here come some more questions.
1. What type and thickness material should I use for the seat boxes and how many layers of glass should I be using inside and out?

2. What type and thickness material should I use for making the esky, and again, how many layers of glass should I use inside and out?

3. Should these be painted in gelcoat or 2 pack?
I know that I have asked a lot of questions and I apologise for that. If anyone can recommend a good website or link to study up on this it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Wal

[svranjic]

Gday

To answer a couple of your questions:

If you are removing the stringers etc then you should do the transom from the inside because you will have cut out the floor etc, so by cutting the exterior you would be creating more work for yourself. For all of your fiberglassing you need to decide weather you are going to use polyester or epoxy resin. Polyester is cheaper and sets faster, however epoxy is stronger and fully waterproof. If you use epoxy you are then going to need to stick to epoxy for all repairs etc in future because polyester does not bond well to epoxy.

If you are using epoxy this will mean gelcoat may be out of the question. Generally speaking gelcoat shouldnt be applied over epoxy because gelcoat (flowcoat in your case) is polyester based. However epoxies such as west system claim gelcoat can be successfully applied to their epoxy products.

In terms of building cupboards etc if you utilize anything that is wood and water ingresses then it will rot over time. However you need to consider cost, practicality and time consumption when making decisions such as this.

I personally would probably use polyester resin for you glassing because its cheaper and means you can gelcoat.

In terms of 2 pak paint vs gelcoat (flowcoat) - I personally like the look of gelcoat better and I also think it stands up better. But 2 pak depending on the type and its application can look superior in some circumstances. Applying gelcoat is much more time consuming because it requires sanding as the gelcoat does not come out perfect off the gun. It is also more expensive than 2 pak. You need to consider the type of 2 pac you use, but if you choose to go with 2 paks you should look at polyurethanes, you can get away with single stage urethanes also. Again this is a question of time consumption and cost. I painted my project boat in 2 pak, and I did my transom with epoxy. Time and cost was a factor in my decisions.

My biggest piece of advise would be to choose a hull that you are happy with, because what you want to do is time consuming and a lot of hard work. Also take however much you think it will cost and double it. Once you start it never ends......

PM me if you need any help

I will leave the question RE the pod etc to more experienced forum members

[odes20]

Hey Shane got rid of the itch yet? :)
Its a good dream and a good plan which will take a good patient man with good skills, a good patient missus! Go for it I say. Just get a big enough hull to add all those ideas into, and make it a great weekender.
As far as pods go my research show most certain way to go is full width full depth. Basically a hull extension.

Cheers
John



Gday

To answer a couple of your questions:

If you are removing the stringers etc then you should do the transom from the inside because you will have cut out the floor etc, so by cutting the exterior you would be creating more work for yourself. For all of your fiberglassing you need to decide weather you are going to use polyester or epoxy resin. Polyester is cheaper and sets faster, however epoxy is stronger and fully waterproof. If you use epoxy you are then going to need to stick to epoxy for all repairs etc in future because polyester does not bond well to epoxy.

If you are using epoxy this will mean gelcoat may be out of the question. Generally speaking gelcoat shouldnt be applied over epoxy because gelcoat (flowcoat in your case) is polyester based. However epoxies such as west system claim gelcoat can be successfully applied to their epoxy products.

In terms of building cupboards etc if you utilize anything that is wood and water ingresses then it will rot over time. However you need to consider cost, practicality and time consumption when making decisions such as this.

I personally would probably use polyester resin for you glassing because its cheaper and means you can gelcoat.

In terms of 2 pak paint vs gelcoat (flowcoat) - I personally like the look of gelcoat better and I also think it stands up better. But 2 pak depending on the type and its application can look superior in some circumstances. Applying gelcoat is much more time consuming because it requires sanding as the gelcoat does not come out perfect off the gun. It is also more expensive than 2 pak. You need to consider the type of 2 pac you use, but if you choose to go with 2 paks you should look at polyurethanes, you can get away with single stage urethanes also. Again this is a question of time consumption and cost. I painted my project boat in 2 pak, and I did my transom with epoxy. Time and cost was a factor in my decisions.

My biggest piece of advise would be to choose a hull that you are happy with, because what you want to do is time consuming and a lot of hard work. Also take however much you think it will cost and double it. Once you start it never ends......

PM me if you need any help

I will leave the question RE the pod etc to more experienced forum members

[Nathan Tuskes]

hey mate a great book to start you off would be jeff websters' second handboat workshop(costs $8.95)

other things to considerer is where the boat will be stored: undercover isvery preferable when fibre glassing

money Budget: this is where most get unstuck, my boats coming in on budgetpretty well to be honest, but I’ve done a few bream boat fit outs and you get toknow the general price of various things.

my advice would be: do your seat boxes in your current boat and see how yougo with the basic concepts of glassing, fairing and painting and then seriouslythink you if have the time to take on a project

Time budget: for me this is the single most biggest blowout, from what i guessedat 4-6months is now 12 and looking at an ETA of 14-18 but looking at what youare proposing is a little simpler(replace transom, stringers, floor, and makeyour own seat box that will house a stove, fridge, sink like most smallovernighter style boats have, because you’re not re designing a boat fromscratch unlike both Matt Fraser and myself your time frame could be less likelyto blow out... heck ive been designing my side console for 4-5weekends and imstill not finished to give you an example how long this takes.....

Next time ill be using a different product instead of ply(possibly multipanel) but this was my first project and i wanted to stick to something thatwas proven to last in my boat for 30+ years with bad glassing practices. soknowing what went wrong and the correct glassing practices my rebuilt boat willeasy eclipse this....

personally im using 2 pak for my boat when i spray it, this is due to thefact its finished when its sprayed and no sanding after, and numerous boatbuilders (who rebuild boats)do the same.

[svranjic]

Hey Shane got rid of the itch yet? :)
Its a good dream and a good plan which will take a good patient man with good skills, a good patient missus! Go for it I say. Just get a big enough hull to add all those ideas into, and make it a great weekender.
As far as pods go my research show most certain way to go is full width full depth. Basically a hull extension.

Cheers
John

Gday John, haha yeh the itch is long gone!!!!!

I agree with the suggestion of needing a place under cover to store the boat. Also you need a place where you can get dust and shit everywhere. Grinding gelcoat / fiberglass makes an all mighty mess. In the bigger scheme of things doing a project like you are considering will leave you with something thats customised and a hell of a lot cheaper than buying new. 2 pak can look very very nice indeed if you choose a high quality paint and do it right. Other considerations you need to think of is buying spray equipment, u need decent stuff. PM me if you would like some links to stores in the US who sell quality gear for very cheap prices.

If you start out on the seat boxes as suggested then you will get a feel for what glassing is like. Little things like tearing the mat and not cutting it so that it blends in at the edges are small things but important. Glassing is not hard, its just messy. Epoxy will cost u a fortune to do all that you want to, which is why I suggest using polyester. Especially if you are doing transom from inside, polyester is fine.

[WalFish]

Fellas, thanks for all of your replies and useful tips. Still undecided as yet as to what hull to start with. Still tossing up the Bertram 20FT around the corner from my place, but also wouldn't mind one of the older haines or similar..

[matt fraser]

Do your research, lots of old stuff on here, and members who are willing to pm and email extra info once you get into it.

The Hull Truth forum (US) has lots of rebuilds as well.

Jeff Websters book, like Nathan said. There is another one called renovations and rebuilds that is handy too. Checkout seamedia website. He also goes through old hulls and points out their good and bad points in various books.

When buying, motor and trailer are a big consideration, most of the time you are better off buying without a motor rather than an old one. Or try and convince the seller to sell the motor seperately as you don't want it. If the boat is more than twenty five years old, it is a given that it will need new stringers and transom. So when buying add another two to three grand to your budget straight up (and another six months). You need to buy at an absolute bargain, or it won't be financially viable.

If you are doing stringers and transom, buy a 44 of resin, as you will use it, just be aware resin has a used by date, so you'll have about 6-8months to use it.

As previously mentioned, you need the shed/undercover workspace. Note everything in that shed will be covered with fibreglass dust, so seal it completely or remove it before starting the project.

You also need understanding neighbours and family, as there will be a lot of noise over a long period (months to years). I've been giving my neighbours a feed of fish on a regular basis to keep them onside.

Tips - You can't glass if temps are over 30 degrees, so it will be a winter project in Townsville.
Rather than buying disposable overalls, get a good spraypainters outfit (top and pants seperate) easier to wear, and will last the whole project and doesn't absorb the dust like the disposables.
Get a set of kitchen digital scales (to 5kg) for mixing resin and bog.

Buy a proper dust and fume respirator (with cartridges) to save your lungs.

Use Qcell bog rather than talc bog, as it is much easier to sand and cures quicker.

Other tools required, good scissors for cutting mat, 4 or 5" grinder, Orbital sheet sander, electric drill, jigsaw, circular saw, straight edge, level, hand saw, scraper, trowel.

Start saving ice cream buckets.

Lots more info, available as you need it.

Good luck,

Matt

[STUIE63]

Wal there is a hull sitting under the big mango trees on the road into the Yabulu nickel refinery . the bloke that owns the block is the closest house . it might be worth a look and a talk to him

[Jarrah Jack]

BM a member here just brought a 23ft Huntsman for 6.6k on ebay. He's the man to talk to as he knows a lot about doing up old Berties.

[berniek]

Have replaced stringers & transom in a couple of boats now. Did it with my current reef runner.

Make sure the boat is well supported on its trailer as chipping grinding cutting the stringers and engine supports will allow the hull to flex.

Get a good vacuum cleaner to clean the dust. Good rubbish tins because there are lots of bits of horrible glass and rotten wood. A water blaster of some sort (Gerni or some such) to clean the 25 years of dirt & mold of the inside of the hull. Bear in mind this will make a mess as it drains out the back of the boat. First job is to remove the bung and put in a bigger one :) or a least cut as bigger hole for one.

Take some measurements as to where the existing engine mounts are if you are going back to an inboard.

Nearly all the boats of this era used marine ply and the boat builders almost never sealed it so they usually always rot :(

Its far from an exact science fitting the stringers, the hulls are usually not as symmetrical as you would first think. You will be using "bog" (resin with talc or Qcells or micro balloons) to glue things in place then use glass matting to seal and add strength.

Time to plan if you want in floor storage as well as fuel tanks & bilge pumps.

You need lots of acetone (for cleaning) so find a good cheap source. Think about the final floor level and where it joins to the side of the hull. You need to think what is above this so you don't end up with a messy lump or ridge along the edges.

Think about where the seats will be. Add extra supports. One boat had aluminum (50mm*12mm bar) under the floor to allow a thread to be tapped to screw the seats to but over time it corrodes and came loose.

Best tip is to use stainless versions of these as long as there http://www.ramset.com.au/Product/Detail/85/Loxin-Shield-Anchors is enough thickness to support it.

The reef runner hull has a round bilge while I think the Bertram is straight deep "V" The reef runner tends to wallow at slow speed in flat water and the Bertram will lay on its side slightly when at rest or low idling speed. Both are good sea boats but I think the reef runner may be more comfortable in the rough at speed. This may well change with the outboard.

Both boats were designed to have inboards and carry their weight in the back (a V8 mercruiser & leg weigh in at 433kg) so going to outboard of the same size means the boat will be lighter. A 200hp Honda weighs in at 238kg. The pod will move the weight 650mm back so doing the maths (ball park) it still might need some extra weight. A navel architect is needed to do the calculations because of the hull is a complex shape but you can 'guesstimate" where the center of buoyancy is and work from there.

I am currently pricing/deciding to repower my own reef runner and have located a boat builder who will mold me a custom pod (he has done a few & has done a reef runner) for about $3500. I could do it myself but this way its properly engineered and will look the goods. I have seen a few home grown ones and although they work, most look amateurish and just plain crappy. Do you want to risk your $25000 outboard (& boat) to your own engineering & workmanship.:-? Will you be able to get insurance on your new setup?

It is doable. You probably need to do it in winter up your way or at night or at least when the humidity is low as well as the temperature.

One final thing to think about. You will end up with a cheap boat but you will NEVER get back the money you spent on it. Would you buy a boat off someone that you knew had been a project boat and you weren't sure of the hidden workmanship? Work out a rough budget but when you start, just buy what you need and don't keep trying to buy cheap unless you want the time line to blow out. :'(