Ballina bar claims another boat

[rabbi]

The Ballina bar claimed a 5.8m plate boat this afternoon.

Went out for a spot of fishing only to find the uni boat ,Seahorse upside down and washing around the south wall along with lots of debri.

It all happened bout 3pm and the boat with several passengers hit a sharp wave which flipped the vessel over backwards.

All on board got swept north and washed in around Shelly beach uninjured.
The boat washed up on south Ballina beach late this afternoon.

What more can you say!!

Steve.

[murf]

I want to come up that way for a fish in the not too distant future so will have to talk to you or Muz to get the good and bad of that bar

thanks for the info

cheers Murf

[byron_moses]

i cant believe they wre out there mate the bars up here at the moment are very dangerous. big swells coming from the south have basically written off getting outside from a northern rivers bar. and 3pm would have been bottom of the run out what were they thinking

[nigelr]

Exactly right byron, madness!
Thankfully no-one was hurt, that is probably a miracle by itself......did they attempt to cross or lose power downstream and just drift out with the tide?

[MICHAELG]

Steve

You say "uni boat" can you tell me which 1 as I work at a Uni

cheers

Michael

[finga]

Steve

You say "uni boat" can you tell me which 1 as I work at a Uni

cheers

Michael
He mentioned Seahorse in the original post so You'd nearly assume that's the name of the vessel.

If it was a University boat then you have to wonder what was going through the skippers head as he would have more experience then the average Joe Blow.

Glad to hear all are OK.

There are going to be a lot more mishaps on bars when you consider the lack (read that non-existent) maintanence on all bars over the last 20-30 years with no prospects of things to get any better.

If someone is killed or hurt in a car accident then things happen, even if the things that happen are plain stupid, with cost no barrier .
If someone is killed or hurt on a bar then what's the problem it seems.

There seems to be a huge conflict in ideals here somewhere especially when you consider the condition of all the navigational bars along the entire Eastern Seaboard. They're all sh!t at the moment where you really have consider if it's worth going out in anything other then 'mirror' conditions.

[MICHAELG]

Finga , Steve

I meant which Uni? sorry my post not clear.

We have some fairly specifc guidlines when our fleet cannot be launched

michael

[crab man]

Seahorse is Lismore uni's boat im fairly shore

[MICHAELG]

Cheers

I 'll make a phone call

michael

[onerabbit]

I heard today that the boat was involved in a training exercise,
so you would think that the skipper was competent.

On the other hand, Seahorse was not a small boat & it would have taken a pretty good wave to flip it end over end........you have to wonder about the decision to tackle the bar under these conditions, or wheather the skipper at the time had the neccessary experience on our bar.
Perhaps the skipper just hit this wave too hard???

Fortunately all seven people escaped injury.

What were Bar conditions like at the time Uncle Steve?

Happy to give you a run-down Murf, perhaps you will be here for a jacket killing session?

Muzz

[thelump]

I work at the Uni a fair bit and was sent a photo of "Seahorse"this arvo. Just a big tiller steer now!

[deepfried]

I was also told they were practicing bar crossings. They picked a day that not one pro wanted to go out because of conditions on the bar. I wonder if they even talked to the coast guard tower. Oh well at least no one was hurt.

[byron_moses]

luckily no one was hurt apparently there were kids on board. clearly the captain didnt have kids of his own. bet he wont have a job of his own now either

[rabbi]

Hey lump/muzz,
Last time I saw that hull I was walking on the bottom side of it and checking out the props.
The whole south wall stunk of boat fuel.

The bar was less than ordinary and the skipper said he had taken the students out for experience and thats what they got.

Stood there and shook my head in disbelief when I was watching the hull float around on the south and the local resident vulture was trying to jag the floating EPIRB with his jew gear.

He hooked some gear but didnt like it much when I made him give it back to the skipper when he came out to survey the scene.

It can happen to anyone of us I guess and I felt sorry for him as he was still in shock but he was relieved that all on board escaped unharmed.

But if you want to dump your boat, the last of the runout was the perfect time in those conditions.
Steve.

[byron_moses]

Hey lump/muzz,
Last time I saw that hull I was walking on the bottom side of it and checking out the props.
The whole south wall stunk of boat fuel.

The bar was less than ordinary and the skipper said he had taken the students out for experience and thats what they got.

Stood there and shook my head in disbelief when I was watching the hull float around on the south and the local resident vulture was trying to jag the floating EPIRB with his jew gear.

He hooked some gear but didnt like it much when I made him give it back to the skipper when he came out to survey the scene.

It can happen to anyone of us I guess and I felt sorry for him as he was still in shock but he was relieved that all on board escaped unharmed.

But if you want to dump your boat, the last of the runout was the perfect time in those conditions.
Steve.

experience should have told him not to bother you get some great pressure waves on the runout in ballina.

at least they got some experience in:
1:swimming in full clothing
2:the power of a bar at the bottom of the runout
3: who not to trust at the helm of a boat

[FNQCairns]

Paper has overtaken aptitude, give me someone who almost irrespective of emploment would still drive boats anyday of the week.

Glad they are all ok at least, now with a story to tell at every dinner table (except the skipper lol), that boat in the pic looks like it's got a bit of a jetski hull, not really appropriate for crossing big bars.

[samsy]

Ballina bar can be very tricky if you don’t understand her. She is so bigand volatile and can test any experienced skipper. However I cannot understandwhy this skipper was evening attempting to cross her in such dangerousconditions. No other boat crossed the bar that day for a good reason - becauseit was $%^& . When the SKIPPER flipped her with seven people on board thelocal VMR refused to risk the lives of their crew and boat to help salvage theoverturned vessel because it was so rough. The local jet boat rescue crew wasthe only vessel capable of taking the bar on to help those people stranded inthe water. Thankfully those passengers washed to shore safely. The skippershould not have attempted to cross the bar in those conditions regardless ofthe justification he is giving. The responsibility rest on the skipper to makethe right call and its blatantly obvious he didn’t - in fact it’s almostcriminal what he did.

Thanks for the photo "The Lump". I think it will be a while beforethey refit her with the twin Yamahas again. She is gunna be a expensive refit.Looks like SCU will miss the start of the whale season research because ofthis.

[stonecold]

i heard the dangerous surf conditions warning on the radio @ about 10am....surely the uni has protocol in place 4 'any' outing...geez, i know the fishing club has to pull th pin on club outings if the wind is forecast at greater than 15knt? Or the swell more than 1:5m? Would that be right muzz. Yes its great they are all safe but what the hell where they doing there.

[rabbi]

Yeah mark thats about right!

Some days they should just shut the door on the bar cause some skippers just fail to make the right decisions and endanger lives.

This time it had a happy ending for most of those involved but on the other hand it could have been one of those tragedies you see on the 6pm news!

steve.

[ranga7]

crazy, wheres the 'duty of care'.....

[onerabbit]

i know the fishing club has to pull th pin on club outings if the wind is forecast at greater than 15knt? Or the swell more than 1:5m? Would that be right muzz.

Gday Mark,
sorry I have been a bit distant for a while, but new babies can do that to ya.

As far as fishing club rules go, (I'm no longer a member by the way) it was anything over 2 mtrs or over 20 knts was imediately canned, we never had a rule as far as the bar was concerned except that at least 3 boats had to go to sea.

Some days they should just shut the door on the bar cause some skippers just fail to make the right decisions and endanger lives.

Saddly Uncle Steve VMR Ballina ( I still have trouble calling them that) cannot tell anyone not to attempt a crossing, they can ony advise & hope that people took their advice,
I'm sure that VMR would have advised Seahorse of current conditions, and wheather it was wise to attempt the bar or not, ie caution, extreme caution or not recommended,

perhaps it was a case of you cant advise an expert

(x being an unknown factor, and a spurt being a drip under pressure)
I think pretty fitting in this case.

Muzz

[stonecold]

G'Day Muzz, I knew from memory the club had some restrictions but couldnt quite remember the limits. Whatever the case as soon as I heard dangerous "surf conditions" the alarm bells were ringing. I find it hard to fathom how SCU would even let the boat out of the yard.

[rabbi]

Well, whatever is causing it must be popular as I have seen a few go over and/ or the aftermath in recent times.

Hey Muzz,Babies? more than one?
Uncle Steve.

[MICHAELG]

I know this for a fact, somebody is going to be in a lot of trouble- they would if they worked at my Uni .

When I held the role of fleet manager I would do a risk assessment prior to releasing or skippering any boats and if I said no- thats it. This will now come under two investigations Maritime and Workplace acts- workplace (due dilliegnce stuff- yuk) would be the worst I think

Michael

[nigelr]

Will be interesting to see the outcome, if it remains in public view, that is.
Could have easily been fatalities. I can't imagine WTF the skipper was thinking....

[The_Tub]

hey fellas

my experience with ballina bar is if the swell is from the south and the tide is running out it is not a good place to be,it seems the bar holds a northerly swell better to a certain extent,that being said due care should be taken when skippering a vessel and lives are ay risk,if its ordinary you dont go.the current must have been roaring up hill pretty hard to be washed up on shelley,wonder what the next lecture will be about,least no body was hurt or killed.

[onerabbit]

Hey Muzz,Babies? more than one?
Uncle Steve.

We are going back to Viet Nam towards the end of this year,
we have agreed that she will have a small window after we return to say yes to that question..............

if not.....it's SNIP TIME

Muzz

[rabbi]

Mate,
Ive got a rusty old fishing knife at home if thats any help??
And we both know a bloke who can do a Moari chant which going from past experience works only too well.

The boats that I have seen go under on the bar have gone over when there has been big pressure waves on the last of the runout.
With the large washout tides it doesnt make any difference trying to back up. You either have to commit yourself or go home, the latter being the wise angle in this case.
when Seahorse went there were big steep pressure waves breaking on the bar all runout.
Pretty much the same scenario with dougalds Sailfish a while back.

uncle steve.

[bondy99]

I know this for a fact, somebody is going to be in a lot of trouble- they would if they worked at my Uni .

When I held the role of fleet manager I would do a risk assessment prior to releasing or skippering any boats and if I said no- thats it. This will now come under two investigations Maritime and Workplace acts- workplace (due dilliegnce stuff- yuk) would be the worst I think

Michael

G'day Michael,

I can concur with what you said. I'm with UQ and yes there are risk assessments.

I don't know the full scenario as to what transpired. Question comes to my mind is this.

" Is the person competent and experienced in crossing this bar and what level of local knowledge?"

I'm also a coxswain licenced under USL Codes for Qld waters but that does not make me qualified or competent to tackle Ballina bar nor would I attempt it unless I had a master with me at the time (under instruction).

When I worked on trawlers based in Port Stephens (NSW) I have heard of a few mongrel bars, Ballina and Iluka were the two that stood out, and that was 30 years ago.

Peter

[ranga7]

Everything said i think we can all learn something from this. Obviously the skipper must have some idea and experience of bars and crossings other wise he wouldn't be driving a uni boat teaching people about bar crossings. My point is no matter how many times we have crossed bars and how experienced we think we are this can happen to anyone at any time. Bars can be unpredictable.

[FNQCairns]

Everything said i think we can all learn something from this. Obviously the skipper must have some idea and experience of bars and crossings other wise he wouldn't be driving a uni boat teaching people about bar crossings. My point is no matter how many times we have crossed bars and how experienced we think we are this can happen to anyone at any time. Bars can be unpredictable.


Nah mate only one the surface IMO this a quazi government boat and it looks like the wrong hull even, for this kind of work but a good one to do a quick chicken out turn around in, assuming the skipper holds the real world competence in such things is stretching the official accreditation boundary quite far, all one needs is paperwork today and bingo ticky boxes filled up and good to go, in the past i have been fairly frightened in government boats but too low in the pecking order to do anything about it...serious catch 22 if one has spent a little time in small boats over their history.

Small boats, with government and government like employees are a dangerous mix.

[bondy99]

FNQCairns,

Yeah, I know where your coming from and some uni supervisors are only academics. I've seen some people at uni get behind a helm and think they know it all only to find out through school of hard knocks that they dont and they come undone.

Vessel design does have a bearing. That's my two bob

[nigelr]

7 on board, would have to be max load?
Was the vessel in survey? I'd guess she would have had to have been....
Personally I reckon she looks like a great hull.........wonder what will happen to her now...were the motors ripped off during the incident or stripped after salvage? Damn shame, but eh everyone is ok that's the main thing.

[finga]

Vessel design has absolutely no bearing on this occurrence.
It was not an accident as accidents are generally not avoidable.
This 'happening' was totally avoidable.

As for boat design the skipper should have known the limitations of the boat in question and known not to 'test' it's capabilities in such extreme conditions.
As for the hull it should have been a very sea-worthy boat. It's a Fisher and many people dream of owning one.
By the sounds NO boat should have been out.

When it all boils down the skipper had no business been there doing what he was doing in the conditions that were prevailing risking the lives of all on-board.
He's just lucky no-one was hurt.

What course would the Uni be conducting where students have to be taught the kind of stuff like crossing bars in extreme conditions??
If they do need to learn these skills then it would probably be more beneficial to get someone like Bill Corten to be the instructor.

[deepfried]

What course would the Uni be conducting where students have to be taught the kind of stuff like crossing bars in extreme conditions??
If they do need to learn these skills then it would probably be more beneficial to get someone like Bill Corten to be the instructor.

I think they have an environmental sciences course which has a fair bit of marine science units. They could even have a marine science degree. I have a mate that did something like that and know of others that have gone on to work at fisheries and that trout hatchery down at Jindabyne after studying at SCU.

[onerabbit]

I have seen this boat on & off the trailer many times,
was a beautiful machine with a great hull !!!!!

I think that it's ultimate downfall was the idiot behind the wheel, why go & play on a bar that no-one else is game to tackle, even the pros.

All due respect to Bill Corten,
but if he rushed in on Ballina bar without due local knowledge, he could well be in the news too.....

The locals all know how careful we have to be with her,
it's usually the visitors or the know-it-alls that come unstuck.

I have been told that this boat could be hired by anyone with a coxwains ticket.

just my humble opinion,

Muzz

[bondy99]

Finga,

I have not seen the boat in question, I was speaking in general terms and not in specific terms.

Deepfried, yeah your correct on that one.

onerabbit, I agree with you about the local knowledge and crossings.

Peter

[FNQCairns]

FNQCairns,

Yeah, I know where your coming from and some uni supervisors are only academics. I've seen some people at uni get behind a helm and think they know it all only to find out through school of hard knocks that they dont and they come undone.

Vessel design does have a bearing. That's my two bob


Yeah some people gain their accreditation on 35 foot boats...although legal they have no place driving a 6m boat in anything but quite fine conditions...the skills needed are actually much finer than this when other soles are on board.

Seen some most incompetent/inexperienced skippers quite well qualified, anyway who know what this individual was capable of we only now know what he was not capable of under accredited regulation....we will never see that statistic though :)

Far better option if ever attempting a bar commercially is a small boat hull that will drain over the transom and has proper buoyant stability when swamped. IMO as a government boat this boat even if in the 6m area makes only a good government/quazi whatever estuary/bay boat.

[thelump]

It was actually lent or leased??? to the Tafe by the Uni. When it went over it was the Tafe guy training people for their Coxswains Cert!!!! The Uni were not involved other than leasing the boat.
FNQ
The boat itself is a 5.8m Fisher (old school one) with twin 115 4 strokes. It was a very nice boat that would handle that bar on a reasonable day. It was NOT a reasonable day.

Cheers Jason

[samsy]

it was interesting to hear on the news yesterday that the TAFE had cleared the driver has he followed due procedure and guidelines. i guess he has teh relevant qualifications, except for the common sense one. are they for real. how could they clear him. its simple really. it was dangerous conditions and he shouldnt have attempted it.

The TAFE said they will now wait for the workcover and maritine report before proceding any further. i hope those departments have enough common sense to throw the book at him.

[finga]

it was interesting to hear on the news yesterday that the TAFE had cleared the driver has he followed due procedure and guidelines. .
Guidelines eh.
I wonder if somewhere in the guidelines it says....if it's too rough or unsavoury then go and read another book about fatalities on bars.
Probably not.

Bondy....boat design has very little or no bearing on any occurrence.
On that bar on a good day we take dad's 13' out.
There is no reason to think his boat will not handle the conditions as it's like a sheet of glass.
On a bad day the jet rescue boat or the trawlers won't go out. Why?? They're not stupid.

What's the difference?? The skippers knowledge to determine the suitability of the hull for the prevailing conditions AND the possible conditions of the bar until after they have returned to port.

I wonder what the skipper was saying when she went over??
Now kiddies...this is what you don't do....hang-on and swim like hell

And I agree with you about local knowledge Onerabbit.
I have been down and watched the Evans Classic when the bar is a bit howdy doody and it's only the visitors who attempt it and come unstuck.
The Evans bar is now where as long and wide as Ballina but by golly it can give you a scare really, really quickly if you don't know what to watch out for ie big swells coming from around the point and number in the sets and where the sandbank is this week

[crab man]

heard a web fisher boat sunk again today on the bar

[deepfried]

heard a web fisher boat sunk again today on the bar

Yeh i am looking at it now its upside down off Shelly Beach at the moment. Looks like they have thrown an anchor on it to stop it drifting around. Not sure if went over on the bar or not though. I was meant to go out with a local pro today and he pulled the pin because of conditions.

[nigelr]

Everyone OK?

[rabbi]

The boat in question was skippered by a friend and clubmate who in my opinion was very experienced with the ballina bar and knew the bar and his boats capabilities well. All on board are okay. Steve.

[deepfried]

When i saw the webster hull i thought it may have been the guy that i have seen you out with. Glad he is ok but the bar was not the best again this morning. I waited for a call to go out from 5.45 this morn which didnt come because it wasnt worth it. Some times though shit happens that even the best skipper couldnt avoid and it is easy to question ones actions after something like this even though we dont know all of the story. I guess it is just part of the game going outside. I am glad i get to sit in the deckies seat and the choice is made by some one that goes every day he can. Big shame about that boat though, i always liked his rig.

[onerabbit]

The boat in question was skippered by a friend and clubmate who in my opinion was very experienced with the ballina bar and knew the bar and his boats capabilities well. All on board are okay. Steve.


Bugger

who was it Uncle Steve?

Muzz

[rabbi]

I think its a case of "shit happens" this time Scott. Feel for him as he is one of those guys that will keep his gear in immaculate condition and probably overmaintained. Ive been out with him and he knows his stuff. I was really surprised when I found out this morning that he had gone over! I think the sea gods are pissed off at the moment!! I dont wish to mention his name in public muzz as the man has had enough drama for a while. Cheers.

[samsy]

the boat that turned over yesterday had very different circumstances to the one that turned over last week. One was a fool and the other one had a bit of bad luck.

Firstly the conditions were manageable. Yesterday skipper, which i know well as he is a fellow fishing club member, went out of the bar safely on the top of the tide. He went out with the intention of staying out there until the tide had begun running back in at lunch time, weather conditios permitting. He had been a sea for 20-30 mins when one of the crew members started turn green and he could see a storm front approaching from the south. he felt the bar conditions were safe and hadnt detoriated since he exited the bar a short time earlier. He was approaching the bar from the south and was sitting idle with the bow facing the bar in a area where no waves where breaking at the time. The skipper was focused on the conditions in front of him and was watching the sets to his starboard side. I am not sure what the deckies where looking at the time. A rogue wave come up behind the skipper without any warning. Before the skipper new what was going on the wave picked the boat up and drove it down the face of the wave. As the boat is a cat it road the wave ok until it got to the bottom and one of the sponson dug in, turned the boat on its side and flipped it. One of the crew dove over board in the process. Another came up after the wave had passed but the captain was caught under the boat. He said it felt like eternity before he was able to free him self. thankfully they all had life jackets on however the captain said if he had a self inflating life jacket on he wouldnt have been able to free himself from under the over turned haul. I guess self inflating life jackets are a double edge sword in certain circumstances. The skipper is very safety concious and as result he keeps MOB bag on board, a back pack full of safety equipment and a float attached. On this occasions it pays to be prepared. They all held onto the boat until while it was being washed out to sea and through the breaking swell was crashing over them. very scary stuff. Thankfully the local jet rescue crew were able to save everyone safely once the bar had passed through the bar.

As of last night the boat was overturned and anchored off shelly beach. Police and martime reports were taken and no action taken by the authorties. The insurance company (GIO) the skipper deals with were not returning his calls for assistance so as a result he still wasnt sure if or how the boat was going to be salvaged. Thanks GIO. I know who want be getting a boat insurance renewal.

[thelump]

What type of PFD was he wearing? I would have thought a maual self inflating would be better in a situation like that because you could get out from under the boat before inflating. Glad to hear all on board are OK.
Cheers

[samsy]

the problem with manual inflation PFD's is that in the event you go into the water, usually from a roll over or the like, there is a good chance you could get knocked out in the process. no chance of inflating it when you conscious.

I wear a Stormy life jacket. Its self inflating. If i was in a situation where i am trapped under a boat and the jacket has inflated I can manually deflate the air and than escape. I can also manually re inflate the vest by blowing air into it. My jacket has a whistle attached to it and reflective tape. I feel very safe and warm when wearing it:)

[samsy]

attached are couple of pics from yesterday attempted salvage of the vessel. Unfortunatley there was no succes in landing her on the beach.

[oscarbyron]

Just testing if I can post.. Thats a shame for both boats, thanks to the Tafe capsizing our seahorse, we now have to use the byron dive boats for our winter semester in a week. The way this weather is going we wont get out anyhow.