Soldering to toggle switches.

[oldboot]

I noticed that in a current post that the poster was soldering direct to a toggle switch in a marine switch pannel.

Depending on the type and quality of the toggle switch, there can be a couple of peoblems with this.

I have replaced a couple of faulty toglle switches in the past and learned from my own bitter experience that some toggle switches do not like the heat on their terminals.

I have dismantled quite a few of these failed switches to see why.

There are toggle switches specificly designed to be soldered to and are just fine, even those the cheaper ones ya have to be a little carefull with........if you are heavy handed with the heat there can be failures.

Those that come with the standard marine switch pannels or can be purchased on their own.......the ones with quick connect or screw terminals on.... can have real problems with the heat of soldering.

here is why
Inside the switch there is a matal rocker plate that is the actual switch, it rocks on a metal pivot, that is connected to the "common" terminal of the switch.... it "makes" on one or two contact points to complete the switch.

The metal handle or toggle that you operate to make the switch work is hollow and has a spring up the middle that bears on a plastic actuator.

This plastic actuator pushes on the rocker plate as the actuator is moved it pushes down on a different part of the rocker plate to make the switch work.

NOW
In better switches intended for soldering this plastic actuator has a good measure of heat resistance.
On the cheaper units particularly those not specificaly intended for soldering, this plastic actuator has insufficient heat resistance to withstand soldering.

So you heat up the common terminal and the heat transfeers thru the pivot into the rocker and melts the end of the actuator.......if the switch contacts are "made" to the other terminal/s and you are soldering that one the heat also transfers to the rocker and the same results.

Now sometimes and depending on how much heat is applied, the switch will still work...... but because the actuator is melted shorter there is less contact preasure, and the switch may fail early.

In the worst cases, the switch will not work, the toggle may be just floppy, the switch may not change or the toggle may stick.


So the message is......don't solder to toggle switches that are not specificaly intended for soldering.

If you have an old switch ( or even a new one) pull it appart and you will see what I mean.


cheers

[TheRealAndy]

If it can be soldered it usually has a great big fuggin hole in the terminal for the wire to go through.

[Neil81]

i think you may be talking about my post yesterday boot lol. the toggles on my switch board had holes for soldering aswell as being soldered already but i still soldered connectors to the wires than plugged the connectors into the toggle.
Easier to exchange if something goes wrong with the switch as nothing is designed to last anymore.

cheers Neil

[testlab]

Good technique is the key in my opinion. A very hot iron with finer tip transfers the heat onto the terminal surface quickly but over a small area without heating the whole terminal.

Short quick touches using rosin cored solder. Pass the wire through the hole first. Then tin the terminal surface each side of the wire. Let it cool. Then tin the wire and let the solder flow into the tinned areas of the terminal surface.

Never try and solder heavy gauges of wire onto switch terminals without lots of practice. For anything heavier (than say 1.0mm2) use crimp terminals. If you're a die hard solder addict then solder the wire to the push-on part but not the receiving terminal on the switch.

Switches die early from arc damage to the contact surfaces. Better quality ones are plated with materials resistant to arc damage. They last longer but if switching inductive loads like motors (pumps, winches, etc) they will eventually die. Placing a 0.1uF to 1.0uF 100V capacitor across the contacts will help prolong their life (this applies to DC switches only - do not do this to AC switches as it can make the output sufficiently live to be dangerous).

[finga]

Just like a condenser in the old distributors or across the points in the old Victa or Villier etc eh testlaby dude??
Worked a treat they did ;)

[oldboot]

Most of the terminals intended for push on crimp terminals are not tinned and the brass is not clean....the terminal has a large mass in comparison to the internal parts.

So even if you file the terminal to get clean brass ( most people won't) and you are quick with an iron( most aren't) and have a good iron with a selection of tips ( most wont) and use a fine wire ( most wont) .......you will still melt the internal plastic actuator.

the better switches intended for soldering will have an actuator made of a much more resistant material like bakerlite or something.

The bottom line is if most people try to solder to the cheaper switches intended for push on connectors, they will have failures or at least compromise the life of the switch.


cheers

[finga]

When it boils down most people would use a crimp and be done with it.
Why?? Because it's easier.
Those with a soldering iron and the inclination to use it would have an idea on what the go is I reckon.

[oldboot]

If that was the case, I would not have come across several switches from different situations with exactly this problem.

Not everbody with a soldering iron knows how to use it or the finer points.
Believe me I have seen some pretty horible soldering, and I doubt I have seen the last of it.

I did not know the reasons for these switch failures, until I dismantled the faulty units......I consider my self reasonably well informed........what hope has the average mug got if someone does not raise the issue.

cheers

[PinHead]

When it boils down most people would use a crimp and be done with it.
Why?? Because it's easier.
Those with a soldering iron and the inclination to use it would have an idea on what the go is I reckon.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..you guys talking about using a soldering iron?
I often wondered why the switches and everything else melted when I tried soldering..that bloody silver solder and the oxy sure makes a mess of those switches.

[Lovey80]

Thanks Oldboot, it would be great if you could add some photo's of what you are talking about so others like myself that are electrical morons could learn exactly what you are talking about.

On a side note, I am considering adding a little strip LED to the inside of my bait board that is detachable at the transom of the boat. I figured it would be hard wired all the way to the transom, with a marine type switch under the transom to turn it on or off and have some sort of connector to join the wire that will hang off the bait board and the hard wire after the switch. Similar to an anderson plug but sealed connector. what is the best type of connector to use in an area that gets salt water and bait juice all over the place?

[oldboot]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..you guys talking about using a soldering iron?
I often wondered why the switches and everything else melted when I tried soldering..that bloody silver solder and the oxy sure makes a mess of those switches.


The problem is....;D ....you think that is a joke, because you know better...:wut: ...I've seen people try to solder wires onto small terminals with a flame.....:o


lovey

I'd be thinking of the bait board as an appliance......take the connector away from the bait board to somewhere a little less ...um.... messsy, and put a power outlet there.....then make your choice as to having a switch on the outlet or the bait board or both.......the outlet is then usefull for other things.

As for the plug to use....hmmm........there is nothing I realy like....the little brass bipin things are cheap and rugged enough, there is a better version that has a screw cover and screw in plug.

There are some expensive harsh environment plugs, but they cost $$$$$

I'm tending toward audio XLR plugs because I have em.

cheers

[finga]

Thanks Oldboot, it would be great if you could add some photo's of what you are talking about so others like myself that are electrical morons could learn exactly what you are talking about.
Hear, hear.
Nothing like pictures to show how it's done properly.


Isn't soldering a huge no no in boats??
I've been told that before

[Noelm]

I guess if the average home handyman had good crimping tools, and used good terminals (not the shit in packets from Supercheap) then all would be good, but when you combine a dodgey crimp, on a shabby terminal and couple it to a fairly average push on (spade) connector on most switches, then you have so many points of potential disaster/failure that soldering may be the best option as long as it is done with care, and not by a blow torch and a stick of plumbers solder! I consider myself a very good (electronics) solderer, and would be more than happy to solder a wire on a switch rather that use a piss poor crimp.

[Noelm]

without hijacking this thread, I just got myself some "Carlingswitch" rocker switches to redo the boat, never used them before, but they appear quite good, the specs say they are 100% water proof, dustproof and so on, with an IP68 rating, meaning dustproof and water proof to a depth beyond 1M, anyone ever used them before and can give me any insight as to whether they are good or crap?

[TheRealAndy]

Thanks Oldboot, it would be great if you could add some photo's of what you are talking about so others like myself that are electrical morons could learn exactly what you are talking about.

On a side note, I am considering adding a little strip LED to the inside of my bait board that is detachable at the transom of the boat. I figured it would be hard wired all the way to the transom, with a marine type switch under the transom to turn it on or off and have some sort of connector to join the wire that will hang off the bait board and the hard wire after the switch. Similar to an anderson plug but sealed connector. what is the best type of connector to use in an area that gets salt water and bait juice all over the place?

Whitworths and the like sell a connector with a screw on cap and seal. They are ok.

If you can get your hands on some bucaneer connectors, they are much better.

[finga]

Is this what your thinking about Andy??
If so then they are good for LED's and the like as they are polarised ie you can't plug the plug in the wrong way around to get the postive in the negative spot and vise versa.
http://www.biasboating.com.au/p-412-plug-socket.aspx
http://www.biasboating.com.au/images/PRODUCT/medium/412.jpg

[TheRealAndy]

Is this what your thinking about Andy??
If so then they are good for LED's and the like as they are polarised ie you can't plug the plug in the wrong way around to get the postive in the negative spot and vise versa.
http://www.biasboating.com.au/p-412-plug-socket.aspx
http://www.biasboating.com.au/images/PRODUCT/medium/412.jpg

Not quite. The ones I am thinking off have a screw on cap, and the plug has a compression gland.

Bucaneers are much much better though, just hard to get.

[oldboot]

without hijacking this thread, I just got myself some "Carlingswitch" rocker switches to redo the boat, never used them before, but they appear quite good, the specs say they are 100% water proof, dustproof and so on, with an IP68 rating, meaning dustproof and water proof to a depth beyond 1M, anyone ever used them before and can give me any insight as to whether they are good or crap?

The carling switches seem to be a pretty good thing, the 4WD industry seesm to be quite taken with them..probaly because they fit the holes in the dash and you can buy rockers with a good range of legends on them.

The only inconvienient thing is you have to cut fairly accurate square holes for them.

Carling to some good quality toggle switches with and without boots too.

cheers

[Noelm]

Yeah they could be a bit tricky to cut the holes, but they make a range of bezels to fit them which will make it easier (I hope) they also make the bezel in an "endless" array, that is, they just clip together to make as many switches as you will ever need, they make blanks as well which is very handy, I got a bezel with a couple of extra holes, and will put blanks in them, then if I ever need another switch, I just pop out the blank and "hey presto" swicth hole ready to go. I hope they prove to be good, they are not exactly over expensive, but a lot dearer than a crap $2 toggle swtich which will fall to bits in 5 minutes. I am now in the process of buying a reasonable crimper to take standard spade terminals, my old one seems to be MIA, kind of reckon I loaned it to someone and they never gave it back!

[oldboot]

If you can make use of the bezzels.....well that makes the job a hell of a lot easier

Another realy good thing about em is the variety if models and contact configurations and lamp arramgements

ya have to wade thru the listing to find what you want

Just make sure you are getting them at a decent price...I've seen them priced at $25 a piece......

cheers

[Noelm]

yeah, I got them way lower than that! the bilge pump switch is a bit of a funny one, it has an off, on and momentary positons, now I guess people want to use their bilge pumps for a short time (while holding the switch) I personally don't really see any benefit in this function, and use mine either on or off, if I had of been aware when I looked at the catalogue, it clearly states that "feature" not that it is a drama, just seems a bit funny (well to me)

[thylacene]

yeah, I got them way lower than that! the bilge pump switch is a bit of a funny one, it has an off, on and momentary positons, now I guess people want to use their bilge pumps for a short time (while holding the switch) I personally don't really see any benefit in this function, and use mine either on or off, if I had of been aware when I looked at the catalogue, it clearly states that "feature" not that it is a drama, just seems a bit funny (well to me)

I noticed a similar setup when we were perving on the various boats at the ramp at Bermi. The guy I spoke to said that he used it to avoid draining the whole bilge, as in rough weather he pumped water into the bilge for stability, but an extra wave or two in a following sea meant he needed to lighten the load and the momentary on allowed him to adjust it without overdoing it. Watched as he showed it working, like an irrigation pump with a huge rate of flow with an 1 and a half inch skin fitting spraying water at least 500mm from the side of the boat.