For the baggers of Super Cheep Calibre Chargers

[TheRealAndy]

I have spent some time analysing my calibre 10Amp charger. My conclusion is that they are a very good unit. Basic, not 10 stage charging bullcrap that actually just wastes your dollars. Simple, does what it needs and no more.

The output of mine during boost mode averages at about 14.2V, making it safe for all chemistries, including GEL and AGM. The max ripple I could measure was 130mv at abaout half load, and this is very good.

I was doubting this unit, but had mine for about 3 year now. I need to test it more at full load of 10A and float but based on current tests I doubt it will be a problem.

Image shows max ripple I could generate at half load (5A)

[Tailortaker]

I've got one too and cant fault it.

[Toddy_again]

Neither can I.

Toddy

[finga]

Said this for years about chargers.
I wonder how the 'must have' brands like Ctek compare under real testing??

[TheRealAndy]

Said this for years about chargers.
I wonder how the 'must have' brands like Ctek compare under real testing??

I have wondered that too, but I buggered if I am forking out $500+ for a 10A CTek charger. The more I read into it. The more I realise that it is all marketing and snake oil IMHO.

[finga]

I buggered if I am forking out $500+ for a 10A CTek charger. The more I read into it. The more I realise that it is all marketing and snake oil IMHO.
Yep. Sure is.
I nearly got a charger from Aldi a few weeks ago.
It would have been really interesting to see the results when comparing a $40 (I think it was) charger to a $500 charger.
I would fork out the $500 for a real good charger but these Ctek's seem to fail within a couple of years for no reason.
I wonder if they have a millenium type bug built into them so they self destruct and people keep buying them??

[charleville]

Said this for years about chargers.




Ditto.

I have used a cheapie for many, many years and have never been disappointed by it.

How much more than a transformer and a diode or diode bridge does one need in a charger?


.

[Noelm]

I guess what it all comes down to is, for the "casual" user that may have a need for a charger now and then (me) then a cheap charger will suffice, but for someone like (say) my son who has a couple of deep cycle jobs for his electric outboard, he needs a more "smart" type of charger, I have built heaps of chargers over the years (back in the good old days) but now, you can just go and buy a suitable charger for what amounts to peanuts, I am not too sure the high end models are all that much better than a reasonable cheap one.

[charleville]

for someone like (say) my son who has a couple of deep cycle jobs for his electric outboard, he needs a more "smart" type of charger,


What do the "smart" chargers do differently? :-?

Do they limit the charging current to prevent overheating and buckling of the plates? Do they stop charging after a time period? Do they test the battery under load every now and then to check how much charge it needs?

A really smart one would take an SG reading every now and then - but I guess that they are not that smart. ;D



.

[finga]

What do the "smart" chargers do differently? :-?

Do they limit the charging current to prevent overheating and buckling of the plates? Do they stop charging after a time period? Do they test the battery under load every now and then to check how much charge it needs?


In short....YES.
Some even have a slow drain and recharge function which is just what the doctor ordered I reckon.

[timddo]

My charger cost me $16 at supercheap. ::) . I do have a really old charger that does an express job . but it looks like it came from the Fred Flenstone days. Heavy ass.

I have killed two battiers with it. Was was a battery i brought off here that was hmm secondhand and the other a normal car battery that dropped a cell on the weekend.

[TheRealAndy]

Ditto.

I have used a cheapie for many, many years and have never been disappointed by it.

How much more than a transformer and a diode or diode bridge does one need in a charger?


.

For long term use a transformer and rectifier are not much chop. The ripple causes heating in batteries, and heat is the killer. Probably ok for automotive use, but no good for gel or agm.


I guess what it all comes down to is, for the "casual" user that may have a need for a charger now and then (me) then a cheap charger will suffice, but for someone like (say) my son who has a couple of deep cycle jobs for his electric outboard, he needs a more "smart" type of charger, I have built heaps of chargers over the years (back in the good old days) but now, you can just go and buy a suitable charger for what amounts to peanuts, I am not too sure the high end models are all that much better than a reasonable cheap one.

I use the supercheap charger on my deep cycles for the electric outboard and it does a great job. These chargers are pretty good, and I am pretty sure they are an aussie designed charger too (might even be an aussie company).

[googarra]

Worth a read. Copy/paste from a commercial site


So why should I pay more for a so called 'Smart' or 'Multi Stage' battery charger, rather than just buy a cheaper standard car battery charger?
Well, here are a few facts about battery chargers, and you can then make up your own mind as to what sort of battery charger you would like charging up to your batteries.
The standard automotive battery chargers that most of us know and own are what we call (linear) constant voltage chargers. In simple terms what this means is as the battery is charging the voltage slowly rises, and as the voltage rises the current (amps) that the charger is putting into the battery starts to drop off, and keeps falling until the battery voltage is up around 14 volts or so, at this point the amps going in has now dropped off to almost nothing and the battery is deemed to be 'charged' but they are NOT really fully charged, and also this process can take a very long time because of the constantly reducing current input. On the other hand these chargers when left connected to a battery for too long can, and often do damage the battery
Now with the newer Smart multi stage chargers, these are a much different animal, and they do cost a bit more, but what they can achieve is well worth the extra money in most cases, and are good value if you value your batteries, the first big advantage is that they do fully charge a battery, and fast too, and at the same time they do it safely, giving the battery what it needs, when it needs it.
Now in contrast to the auto (constant voltage) charger, these smart chargers do multi stage charging, a smart 3 or more stage charger are usually sized to the battery bank it has to charge, all battery chargers should be sized for the job, too big or too small and they won't do their job very well, and can in most cases kill the batteries over time.
Smart multi stage chargers start first with the 'boost' stage, in this stage the charger puts in as much current as the charger is capable of for as long as it can safely do so, in the this stage it operates as a constant current charger, so if it's a 10A charger it will put in a constant 10 amps until the battery reaches a voltage set point that is normally about 14.4-14.7v, at this time the battery is about 85-90% charged.
Now the next stage begins, the 'Adsorption' stage, and the charger now turns into a constant voltage charger, it now holds the voltage at the set point, say 14.4 volts, now the only way it can do this is it must back off the current, otherwise the voltage would just keep climbing higher and higher, so it must vary the current to hold the battery at the 14.4 volts.
After some time the amount of current flowing to keep the battery at the set point is so small that the chargers smart processor circuit says to it's self, "hey, I've been holding this battery at the required voltage until the amps have dropped off to almost nothing, this battery has stopped accepting any real current now, so it must be fully charged!" the charger now convinced that the battery has finished charging and is fully charged, goes into the next stage, the 'Float or maintenance' stage, this is where it backs the current off even further so the battery voltage drops to around 13.5-13.8v, and now holds it there by varying the current again, the lower voltage is below the electrolytes gassing point and can be left on charge like this indefinitely, and if power is being drawn from the battery the charger just ramps up the current out-put to match the draw.
The real advantages of smart multi stage chargers are, faster charging, fuller charging, ultimately leading to longer battery life, more useable capacity from the batteries, less electrolyte loss in the case of wet flooded batteries, and/or little chance of over charging and killing sealed batteries.

[TheRealAndy]

The calibre charger is a mutistage charger. It runs at 14V or thereabouts till then end, then runs in a float mode. However this is different to an 8 stage charger, which claims to revive your battery and work all sorts of magic on it.

And contrary to popular beleif, gels and agm's dont like bulk charging. Its possible a few manufactures allow it, but in general most dont. Bulk charging causes heat and gassing, which is detrimental to gel and agm life.

So the suprecheap charger might take a day longer, but for that extra day you get extended battery life. Works for me.

[Tailortaker]

I've been charging my 100a/h deep cycle battery for the leccy motor with my supercheap charger for 2 years and now dramas so far and the battery is an old second hand one from ebay too.

[tropicrows]

I have both chargers, a Super Cheap 10 amp Calibre and a CTek 10 amp. I stopped using the Calibre as it boiled my battery dry more than once, since using the CTek I have not had a problem. I tend to leave my batteries on charge for a week or two not just over night.

[TheRealAndy]

I have both chargers, a Super Cheap 10 amp Calibre and a CTek 10 amp. I stopped using the Calibre as it boiled my battery dry more than once, since using the CTek I have not had a problem. I tend to leave my batteries on charge for a week or two not just over night.

Have you still got the calibre charger? If you do, can I take a look at it?

[tropicrows]

Have you still got the calibre charger? If you do, can I take a look at it?

I'll try and remember to have a look in the shed tonight, or it could be over at my partners place. Anyway leave it with me and i'll get back to you.

[oldboot]

Building a battery charger even a multi stage charger isn't by any means heavy electronic design.

Hell you can probaly buy the whole thing in a chip......many of the sealed battery powered portable PA systems have a 2 stage chip charger built into them.....a few passive components and a 5 pin power package.

I am sure the semiconductor manufacturers would be selling a chip or two.

So any self respecting asian manufacturer should be able to make a decent fist of a battery charger.

Jaycar, supercheap, repco..all reasonable suspects for stocking a reasonable charger at a decent price......funny some of them look suspicioulsy similar too.

cheers

[tropicrows]

Andy,

I found the charger but's its only a 6 amp unit. PM me if you still want to have a look at it.

[Mike Delisser]

Bulk charging causes heat and gassing, which is detrimental to gel and agm life.


That's probably why my Ctek has a temp sensor,

[finga]

Does that temperature sensor go onto the battery Mike??
If so then it's a big step up from the norm and a feature well worth having to extend the life of a battery.

[TheRealAndy]

Andy,

I found the charger but's its only a 6 amp unit. PM me if you still want to have a look at it.

Mate I would love to put it to the test.

A lot of fancy chargers wont charge from flat, or wont charge a crook battery. The calibre does not discriminate, if your battery is drawing current from it, it will keep feeding it. I suspect this may have been the case, however until we put it to the test one will never know!


That's probably why my Ctek has a temp sensor,

I have only seen commercial/industrial chargers with battery temp sensors. Most temp sensors on consumer chargers are to adjust the charge voltage based on ambient temperature. Temp sensors on commercial chargers are usually just a protection mechanism.

[Mike Delisser]

Does that temperature sensor go onto the battery Mike??
If so then it's a big step up from the norm and a feature well worth having to extend the life of a battery.

Yeh it's touching the casing of my 2 deep cycles, the Ctek monitors the temp and adjusts accordingly. At comps I regularly need to do a full recharge overnight (esp if very windy) and the 2 x 130amphrs Trojans require a bit but it charges them easy. And I don't want to pay $160 to enter an ABT comp and have the amount of charge in my batteries determine my game plan on the last day.
It's also got a recovery mode that I havn't used but a couple of mates have borrowed it to improve the performance of their old batteries, they recon it made a big difference. In my case I also like being able to mount the Ctek in the boat, and I would worry about relying on a very basic charger to maintain $800+ worth of batteries, they also last me much longer now that I've got a good charger.

Andy, I've found you'll have probs if you try to put more into a Deep Cycle than it's holding, ie 10amps into a deep cycle battery that is so flat it's only holding say 4amps . If you put it on a 1amp trickle charger for several hours to get it started and build it up you can then switch it over to the bigger charger. Some chargers like my Ctek will automatically do it for you.
Cheers

[TheRealAndy]

Yeh it's touching the casing of my 2 deep cycles, the Ctek monitors the temp and adjusts accordingly. At comps I regularly need to do a full recharge overnight (esp if very windy) and the 2 x 130amphrs Trojans require a bit but it charges them easy. And I don't want to pay $160 to enter an ABT comp and have the amount of charge in my batteries determine my game plan on the last day.
It's also got a recovery mode that I havn't used but a couple of mates have borrowed it to improve the performance of their old batteries, they recon it made a big difference. In my case I also like being able to mount the Ctek in the boat, and I would worry about relying on a very basic charger to maintain $800+ worth of batteries, they also last me much longer now that I've got a good charger.

Andy, I've found you'll have probs if you try to put more into a Deep Cycle than it's holding, ie 10amps into a deep cycle battery that is so flat it's only holding say 4amps . If you put it on a 1amp trickle charger for several hours to get it started and build it up you can then switch it over to the bigger charger. Some chargers like my Ctek will automatically do it for you.
Cheers

I am trying to dechipher what you are saying.

"I've found you'll have probs if you try to put more into a Deep Cycle than it's holding, ie 10amps into a deep cycle battery that is so flat it's only holding say 4amps"

For a start, a battery does not hold 4 amps, it holds a charge, measured in amp hours, two very different concepts.. Secondly, you cant put 10amps into a battery, a battery may draw 10amps, but you cant force it in.

A charger that moniters battery temp, will have a temp sensor bolted to one of the battery terminals, so I reckon you CTEK charger is only compensating for ambient temp.

"It's also got a recovery mode that I havn't used but a couple of mates have borrowed it to improve the performance of their old batteries, they recon it made a big difference."

I "Reckon" it wont make much difference. Thats my scientific approach! But I "reckon" your mates have it sorted.

If I were to buy a fancy charger, I would look at a xantrex charger. They are probably shit though, cause they dont have 20 stages.

[googarra]

A lot of fancy chargers wont charge from flat, or wont charge a crook battery. The calibre does not discriminate, if your battery is drawing current from it, it will keep feeding it. I suspect this may have been the case, however until we put it to the test one will never know!

True, they need a voltage from the battery so the 'smart' figures out what charge it should start at.

Big 'no no' to flatten any battery, but it happens. With smart chargers you need to 'jump' start the charge process using jumper leads from another battery for 5 minutes until some charge is read by the charger and then it is away.

I have the Projecta 10amp 7 stage purchased from fleabay for just over $200 and also have 4 others from 40amp to 1amp trickle, but I wont use anything else now.

I have various vehicles and machinery and maintain nine 650 cold crank amps, a few 26hr gels, a 100 deep agm and a few others and this charger does all very well.

I was always paranoid about forgetting a charger is on a battery, particularly the 40amp, and destroying the battery. Now I just rotate the smart charger from battery to battery if there is need to maintain any not being used for a few weeks.

I know little about the electronics and lingo, just relating what I use and do

Cheers

[oldboot]

There are so may myths and misconceptions about lead acid batteries, which is sad, because they are one of the best documented electrical items we have.

There are heaps of good resources available on the internet, some of the best are publised by the major battery companies.

I do agree that many of the fancy multistage chargers will not begin to charge some batteries in certain conditions, particularly older batteries that have been allowed to discharge too far.....I have seen this first hand.....I just cant help myself I have to try to revive lost causes....I keep an old style transformer rectifier charger for that purpose.

Quite often deeply discharged batteries will not easily accept charge, after a few hours on the old clunker they will begin to accept charge......once they are at that point they will usually run on the multistage charger.

There are all sorts of claims that this or that charger will not fully charge this or that battery "fully". I have not seen any of these claims from battery manufacturers.

The simple fact is that if you apply the correct voltage and supply sufficient current, any salvagable lead acid battery will fully charge given enough time.

Yes some of the fancy chargers will get more charge to stick, more quickly, but that is a different thing.

One thing I have learned in the last few years, is that we can no longer make certain broad bassed assumptions about batteries and battery types.
We realy do have to look at the manufacturers information.

The notion that you can not fast charge gell type batteries used to be universal.
Allong with a certain pattern of behaviour.......this is still true for some gell batteries, but not for others.

The clear distinction between gel, other sealed, AGM, and wet cell batteries is no longer there as manufactueres use methods and chemistries from other battery types.

Almost all sealed battery manufactuers gell their electrolite to some extent, almost all sealed battery manufacturers have there electrolite absorbed or imobilised in glass mat somehow, A great many battery manufacturers sealed and wet are using calcuim to some extent in their batteries.

What makes this battery a "True GEL" battery or an "True AGM" battery or what ever is a very good question.....a question I am yet to find an answer I am satisfied with.

As far as slow charging batteries being advantageous.....still not convinced......charging at the 10 hour rate seems to be universaly recommended as ideal.

Fast charging, apparantly will be less efficient and harder on the battery, as to a given battery tolerating a certain charging rate.....Oh hell......ya just cant make a generalisation anymore....all you can do is refeer to the manufacturers specs and prove them iff you can.

I have tried to charge 2 different 7.5Ah sealed batteries direct from a car charging system one would only accept arround 3 or 4 amps a rapid charge but still safeish, the other drew something like 15 -20 amps and got very hot very quickly, experiment rapidly terminated......same car same cable same instruments.

As far as reviving batteries........quite often all it takes is a proper charge under good conditions.........

Some people have small chargers and simply do not give the battery enough time to charge.....if you have a 1 amp charger on a 120AH battery particularly if it is older it may never fully charge that battery, the charging losses may be greater than the charger can deliver.

If you have a deeply discharged battery, regardless of the size of the battery or charger it may take 12 to 16 hours to charge fully......then agian it may not.

I have tried one of the pulse type battery reconditioners......and it seems to work......but it takes several days or more to make a difference.

As for the fancy chargers... many of them have some form of pulse mode which may help in this situation..... but I have doubts about it helping in a single cycle charge.

Applying an "equalising charge" may produce an improvement quickly, as this may rectify a lazy cell that is not getting up to charge as quickly as its neibours.
But this is nothing more that a quickish charge for a given period longer than a normal cycle charge.

Unfortunately there are many people who do not wish to take the time to understand, combine that with those of us who try our best to explain in simple terms....and we end up with a case of battery chineese wispers and all this misinformation.


There are all sorts of conditions like "acid stratification", "calcium charge resistance" and others that we could blab on about that slow or prevent charging.

But the bottom line is correct voltage, sufficient current and enough time will solve most basic charging problems.

AND of course some of the cheaper competently designed multi stage chargers are a very good proposition.

AND any multistage that works properly will be much better for your battery than an old transformer/ rectifier clunker.

cheers

[TheRealAndy]

Unbeleivable. Post up some truths and get flogged.

I think I might just give up posting technical answers, so many experts out there. I guess what I learned in my trade and at uni is all wrong.

[oldboot]

No probaly not wrong, just the products have changed and maybe how we can use them.

Beleive me I have had to change my mind on things, I beleieved from my training, some of them turned out to be wrong, others just changed.

Particularly this battery stuff.....I have been reading I reasarching this stuff for over 2 years now.....and things have changed.
And there are some answers I am sill looking for.


Particularly how certain batteries behave and what they will tolerate.
The safe generalisations of the past just aren't as reliable as they once were.

I am always happy to be corrected where someone can provide good documentation.

Don't stop posting mate, your input is valued and respected by many of us.

cheers

[googarra]

TheRealAndy

I read the posts and I cannot find anything that was posted about you being wrong, in fact, your read was interesting as was 'oldboots' and I learnt something from both of you, so I dont know how you were 'flogged'

I agreed with you, smartchargers wont charge a flat battery, but you can jump start them. Its in the manuals of most smartchargers, and it works.

The rest of my post was about what I use, what I do, and my experiences with batteries and chargers, right way or wrong way, which is exactly what a forum is all about.

I am sure there are many qualified people on this forum in a vast arena of different fields and trades, as I am, Uni also, but not electronics as I have only a basic understanding of it and learn from reading forums and the internet and find most peoples opinions interesting.

If you post something of a technical nature, you are sure to get alternate opinions, --- in the english language its called a 'forum'.

[Mike Delisser]

I am trying to dechipher what you are saying.

.
Andy I think you know very well what I'm trying to say (as best as I can) Put in 10 amps = connect to a 10amp charger. Only holding 4amps = almost flat


I'm glad your SuperCheap charger suits your needs, dos't mean everything else is "Bullcrap". The type of charger you called "BULLCRAP" in your 1st post performs very very well myself and others with demanding battery needs.
Cheers

[murf]

True, they need a voltage from the battery so the 'smart' figures out what charge it should start at.

Big 'no no' to flatten any battery, but it happens. With smart chargers you need to 'jump' start the charge process using jumper leads from another battery for 5 minutes until some charge is read by the charger and then it is away.

Cheers

top trick ;)

I will have to remember that one, very common in vans when someone leaves an inside light on for a week :-[ , the charger won't look at it, I usually hit it with the oldest 4amp charger you have ever seen and they come up enough to get the smart charger working again

so I am looking for a LVD Low Voltage Disconnect relay atm to stop the battery getting discharged too far for the charger to pick it up

cheers Murf

[Nicko_Cairns]

Worth a read. Copy/paste from a commercial site


So why should I pay more for a so called 'Smart' or 'Multi Stage' battery charger, rather than just buy a cheaper standard car battery charger?
Well, here are a few facts about battery chargers, and you can then make up your own mind as to what sort of battery charger you would like charging up to your batteries.
The standard automotive battery chargers that most of us know and own are what we call (linear) constant voltage chargers. In simple terms what this means is as the battery is charging the voltage slowly rises, and as the voltage rises the current (amps) that the charger is putting into the battery starts to drop off, and keeps falling until the battery voltage is up around 14 volts or so, at this point the amps going in has now dropped off to almost nothing and the battery is deemed to be 'charged' but they are NOT really fully charged, and also this process can take a very long time because of the constantly reducing current input. On the other hand these chargers when left connected to a battery for too long can, and often do damage the battery
Now with the newer Smart multi stage chargers, these are a much different animal, and they do cost a bit more, but what they can achieve is well worth the extra money in most cases, and are good value if you value your batteries, the first big advantage is that they do fully charge a battery, and fast too, and at the same time they do it safely, giving the battery what it needs, when it needs it.
Now in contrast to the auto (constant voltage) charger, these smart chargers do multi stage charging, a smart 3 or more stage charger are usually sized to the battery bank it has to charge, all battery chargers should be sized for the job, too big or too small and they won't do their job very well, and can in most cases kill the batteries over time.
Smart multi stage chargers start first with the 'boost' stage, in this stage the charger puts in as much current as the charger is capable of for as long as it can safely do so, in the this stage it operates as a constant current charger, so if it's a 10A charger it will put in a constant 10 amps until the battery reaches a voltage set point that is normally about 14.4-14.7v, at this time the battery is about 85-90% charged.
Now the next stage begins, the 'Adsorption' stage, and the charger now turns into a constant voltage charger, it now holds the voltage at the set point, say 14.4 volts, now the only way it can do this is it must back off the current, otherwise the voltage would just keep climbing higher and higher, so it must vary the current to hold the battery at the 14.4 volts.
After some time the amount of current flowing to keep the battery at the set point is so small that the chargers smart processor circuit says to it's self, "hey, I've been holding this battery at the required voltage until the amps have dropped off to almost nothing, this battery has stopped accepting any real current now, so it must be fully charged!" the charger now convinced that the battery has finished charging and is fully charged, goes into the next stage, the 'Float or maintenance' stage, this is where it backs the current off even further so the battery voltage drops to around 13.5-13.8v, and now holds it there by varying the current again, the lower voltage is below the electrolytes gassing point and can be left on charge like this indefinitely, and if power is being drawn from the battery the charger just ramps up the current out-put to match the draw.
The real advantages of smart multi stage chargers are, faster charging, fuller charging, ultimately leading to longer battery life, more useable capacity from the batteries, less electrolyte loss in the case of wet flooded batteries, and/or little chance of over charging and killing sealed batteries.


Anyone got any good reviews of smart chargers? I need a 12v and 24v dual job. Thanks.

[oldboot]

Here is a concept that I constantly hear misunderstood.

Put crudely
For the most part we "constant voltage charge" lead acid batteries, in that we apply a more or less fixed voltage from the charger and let the current sort its self out.

Under best conditions at the start of a charge of a flat ish battery, the charger will deliver it rated current..so a 10 amp charger puts in 10 amps.

As the level of charge in the battery increases the amount of current drawn will stedily decrease, untill the battery is fully charged and all remaining current will be loses.

so we can not even without accounting for losses in chargeing expect a 10 amp charger to charge a 120 AH battery from flat in 12 hours.......because toward the end of charging the 10 amp charger will be supplying very much less current.

All the figuring above is all BS anyway because of all sorts of complications and we should not be discharging that far.....but it will do for explanation.

In addition....there are a number of situations where a battery even when considerably discharged will not draw full rated current from a charger.

Lets call it charge resistance for convienience.

As the battery responds and "charge resistance" is overcome the battery then may start drawing full charger capacity.

If you are finding that when put on charge your battery will not accept full capaity of your charger......I would suspect you are cycling your battery too deep and it is developing some form of "charge resistance".

A low voltage disconnect is arely good idea and there are several manufacturers who offer them.....BEP marine do one and so do Bainbridge technologies.....there are also some electronic kits available if you are that way inclined...anothe thing that is not rocket science.
realy we should all have low voltage disconnects on our non cranking loads appart from realy important stuff like VHF radios, bilge pumps and nav lights

The pasted link from a popular charger manufacturer is pretty close to the money but remember it is a sales document.

as I have said before any multistage charger ( smart charger if you like) that works properly is better than an old style clunker.

The Ctec charges are very well regarded although some would say overpriced.
Jaycar sell and almost identical item under another brand I have a 7.5 amp 12/24 volt unit & it seems to be pretty good.
But as has been said before, quite a few of us are getting very good service out of cheaper brands.


cheers

[oldboot]

It occurs to me there may be cloud of mystery over "smart chargers" in the minds of some.

They are more reasonably called "multi stage chargers"....put crudely they simply change their charging voltage to optomise the charging of the battery in stages based on measurement it takes thru the charger leads.

They should more efficinetly charge a battery that a fixed voltage charger.

But that can't perform miricles and suspend the laws of physics.

They will also stop charging heavily when the battery measures as fully charged so you don't boil the stuffings out of your battery.

you should be able to leave them connected indefinitely when set correctly.

cheers

[bar raider]

There
What makes this battery a "True GEL" battery or an "True AGM" battery or what ever is a very good question.....a question I am yet to find an answer I am satisfied with.

cheers

Agreed

i bought a fullriver 'seconds' battery that had the "gel" scratched out and sold as a agm, I looked into it and a batch got recalled due to too much of a certain ingredient/chemical and therefore was closer to a agm, turned out to be a great battery though.:D



I,ve now got 3 chargers, a old arlec 10 (not auto), a ctec 7a, but i wanted more oomph so i got a ozcharge multi stage which is 2/10/20a selectable - eqilisation and a rejunification functions aswell. gunna sell the ctek.

[Bros]

i bought a fullriver 'seconds' battery that had the "gel" scratched out and sold as a agm, I looked into it and a batch got recalled due to too much of a certain ingredient/chemical and therefore was closer to a agm, turned out to be a great battery though.

I got one as well, there were heaps on the market.

[oldboot]

I am not hopefull of a lot of detail forthcomming about this whole sealed, gell,AGM battery thing.....I recon a lot of this stuff would be trade secrets.

There was a smallish company in the US that got busted for selling its batteries as whatever it thaught gave it the most market leverage at the time...gell, AGM whatever.

I know there was a company here that was cautioned for selling as AGM something that wasn't realy...maybe that was the batch of fullriver......they do make both.

I would realy like to know the difference.

I know some of the serious gel batteries you can crack em open with an axe and the electrolite stays put....on the other hand I have seen opened " sealed lead acid batteries" where the electrolite would obvilusly flow out of the mats inbetween the cells.

The realy interesting thing is the updated information on the "Panasonic" sealed batteries.......they have never used AGM in any of their marketing amd it does not appear on any packaging...... but in there technical summary, they refeer to AGM methods.
Thses guys have been making the same range of sealed batteries for decades, and they have a rep as the premium brand in smallish sealed lead batteries.

So I scratches my head.


cheers

[googarra]

I cant believe this thread is still going.

Just charge the F*&^%$%$ thing and go fishing.

some chargers do it better than others, dont care.

[murf]

I cant believe this thread is still going.

Just charge the F*&^%$%$ thing and go fishing.

some chargers do it better than others, dont care.

hahahaha :) Friday night and 8pm (NSW time) love it :P

cheers Murf

[PinHead]

hahahaha :) Friday night and 8pm (NSW time) love it :P

cheers Murf

LOL murf..how much had you had to drink..it is Saturday night..LOL

[finga]

hahahaha :) Friday night and 8pm (NSW time) love it :P

cheers Murf


LOL murf..how much had you had to drink..it is Saturday night..LOL
They reckon they're an hour in front but in reality they're 23hrs behind. ;D
What year is it Murf??

[ozscott]

I have a Waeco 15 amp Perfectcharge unit. I have had it for about 4 years and cant fault it. It is a mutli stage charger that pulses for a few mins then finds the most appropriate charging amps and then charges until full and then maintains a low trickle as it needs if left connected. Will not cause problems if you bugger it up and attach to the wrong terminals - just comes up with the red light indicating that. It has a low amp switch for motor bike/ride on batteries etc. I use it to charge Calcium Calcium and straight lead acid from ride on size to large truck size and it all works very very well. I got it from my brother who sells them so it was cheap, but they are not as dear as CTEK by a fair margin.

Cheers

[murf]

LOL murf..how much had you had to drink..it is Saturday night..LOL

well yeah maybe was on my third :-[ bloody moonshine

ahh the joys of being on a pension, all the days end in Y :P

and now ya know why AS3000 has not been touched in 10 years haha

cheers Murf

hehehehe ;D I am still laughing :)

[TheRealAndy]

Damn, this thread is still going too?

Old boot, the difference between GEL and an AGM is simple, one uses a gel electrolyte, the other uses an electrolyte in fibreglass. Two very different concepts. If it dont have fibreglass, its not AGM. If the electrolyte is not jelly, then its a flooded lead acid. Not rocket science.

And, by the way, last time I checked, the laws of physics have not change in the last 15 years, so what applied back then still applies now.

That the last from me on this topic.

[googarra]

Yeeeeeehaaaa,

Go the battle of the sparky's,

im still reading, but I wouldn't take bets on the outcome. If I want to know if a small battery has power, I stick my tongue on it, if I want to know if 240 volts are on it, multimeter and a lot of common sense.

You two can debate the rest of the details, but im still learning

No offence intended.

[oldboot]

Damn, this thread is still going too?

Old boot, the difference between GEL and an AGM is simple, one uses a gel electrolyte, the other uses an electrolyte in fibreglass. Two very different concepts. If it dont have fibreglass, its not AGM. If the electrolyte is not jelly, then its a flooded lead acid. Not rocket science.

And, by the way, last time I checked, the laws of physics have not change in the last 15 years, so what applied back then still applies now.

That the last from me on this topic.

Um yeh that is what I thaught.

The lifeline batteries appear to be a stereo typical AGM battery with glass mat between the cells and what appears to be an unthickened electrolite.

DEKA, make both "gell & AGM" batteries & their documents also seem to support gelled or runny with glass mat electrolite being the difference

Sonnenschein well known as a gell battery manufacturer for a very long time and make of no other technology say that they use a fibreglass mat inbetween their plates to further immobilise their gell.

The brands escape me but, I read some making a big deal of gelling the electrolite in their "AGM" batteries so they can be more reliably be operated other than upright.

perhaps the some of AGM people just thicken the electrolite a little.

The matter is further complicated by sealed battery manufacturers using glass mat between their plates and or gelled electrolite and claiming neither GEL nor AGM.

Or is it a case of AGM being a recently invented marketing term for what we used to call "starved electrolite".... But GEL is also a starved electrolite...perhaps they needed a term to differenciate.

It was so much easier when things were straight forward.

Indeed the laws of phisics havn't changed......who said they have?

But the mongrels keep changing the processes involved, and nothing is as simple as it once was.

When I was an apprentice a almost all were wet cell batteries and they all behaved pretty much the same.

GELL and other sealed batteries were new and relativly expensive, the gates company had just braught out a battery "rolled up like a carpet" and we never heard of AGM.

Back then a multi stage charger was a switch operated by an apprentice with a watch and a notebook ( ya know paper with spiral at the top data enrty with a pencil).

Now they are all fiddling with the chemistry and they are all using a blend of technologies.

All publishing differing specs, claiming different advantages in performance or to have illiminated this or that inherant problem with a particular technology.
And of course one or two making claims that simply can not be trusted.

Gell batteries were known for not tolerating high charge or discharge rates..but sonnenschein have a range that has very high charge & discharge rates.

One AGM manufacturer claims some sort of self charge current regulating property

Several claim to have completely illiminated the thermal runaway problem in AGM.

Maybe not changing the laws of physics, but fiddling with the process.

cheers

[finga]

That the last from me on this topic.
Oh come on Andy. Be a sport.
Your turn....
I wouldn't know about this stuff. I haven't had the need to charge a battery in yonks...and don't want to.
;D

[TheRealAndy]

Oh come on Andy. Be a sport.
Your turn....
I wouldn't know about this stuff. I haven't had the need to charge a battery in yonks...and don't want to.
;D

Nah mate, not buying into it. I said my piece.

My early apprentice and electronic design years were spend doing remote weather instrumentation. All were 6 or 12V installs, most was solar powered, but some had mains power. We mainly used gel, however depending on size of the install we would also used AGM or flooded lead acid. Flooded lead acid was by far the most reliable, and pretty much never had batteries replaced. I got to design a few chargers, so I think I am qualified to comment. I spent most of my apprentice years building, repairing and installing these systems, so I think I am qualified to comment on that part too.

[Bros]

This should complicate things and explain where the cheap AGM batteries came from. I knew the history when I bough mine.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/829421

[tropicrows]

Andy,

If you still want to borrow my charger, no probs.

[oldboot]

This should complicate things and explain where the cheap AGM batteries came from. I knew the history when I bough mine.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/829421


So the suposed Gell battery contained a small% of "Silicon dioxide" which I understand is the thickening agent used to gell electrolites, but not enough to make it a GELL battery.

I suspect they were incorrectly labled batteries and they seem to be slightly gelling their electrolite in their AGM batteries...or are they using glass mat in their gell batteries and there was a failure in the preparation off the gel?

come on andy out with it......what don't you agree with.

cheers

[FrogBat]

And again I notice that non consensus is happening.
Why is finga not in on this one?
Why has Oldboot got so much to say?
If a battery is flat why can't you just put a charger on and let it charge up?
It cannot be that hard can it?

I think I'm very lucky been a girl and not knowing anything at all.
But by just reading I've learned a lot and it is not about batteries or battery chargers.
You males amuse me and some words I read here some time ago come to mind
Arguing with an idiot only proves there is two.
It seems the lesser idiots have had enough.

It must be about time the bigger idiot known as finga step in and take over from TheRealAndy.

[TheRealAndy]

And again I notice that non consensus is happening.
Why is finga not in on this one?
Why has Oldboot got so much to say?
If a battery is flat why can't you just put a charger on and let it charge up?
It cannot be that hard can it?

I think I'm very lucky been a girl and not knowing anything at all.
But by just reading I've learned a lot and it is not about batteries or battery chargers.
You males amuse me and some words I read here some time ago come to mind
Arguing with an idiot only proves there is two.
It seems the lesser idiots have had enough.

It must be about time the bigger idiot known as finga step in and take over from TheRealAndy.

Or perhaps we just get Phil to lock the thread before we all start abusing you for calling us idiots.

[finga]

Oi. You can't call me an idiot you frog leg and snail munching witch.


Don't worry Andy. She's a friend of the cook's and she loves taking the micky out of me.
Wait until I see her again.

[Bros]

FrogBat who brung you?

If you don't like it don't bother reading.