Who has PERSONALLY experienced serious engine failure in the first 3-5 years

[ozscott]

Controversial yes, but who has experienced serious failure in the first 3-5 years of new engine ownership? I know some people might have different definitions of that but lets make sure it includes:

1. Engine stopping and not re-starting on the water or land until taken to a mechanic;
2. Engine going into limp home mode for other than an impeller failure;
3. Engine missing, running rough or with a loss of power requiring fixing by a mechanic;
4. Any of the above that was recurrent and where no fault could be found each time...

OK. I know some people will say what about owner error and bad fuel, water in fuel etc, but I reckon that will equal out amongst owners (unless some of you think that people who buy certain brands are smarter than people who buy others and know how to look after their engine better...:)

I have only included modern tech engines.

Cheers and have fun!

PS. I have not included Tohatsu - I thought there were not enough around to worry about but if people disagree then just let me know

[Rhinoc]

Great thread Scott.

I will be watching this thread with interest as I'm researching my next rig.

[ozscott]

Thanks fellas - as big Kev would say - I'M EXCITED! (cause its my virginal poll). As I say I expect some criticisms of the poll but there you go.

Cheers

[Spaniard_King]

How many people will own up to this?? maybe the disgruntled ones... or will everyone just chose to nominate a brand they disslike??

What if someone has had several brand failures.. where/how should they vote??

[Chimo]

Hi Ozscott

Can you modify the poll to include
1 the year of the problem against each brand and also a
2"no problems" answer ?

Cheers
Chimo

[ozscott]

Hi Chimo and Gary.

I have made the results public for each poster. We have to assume that people are honest. I think they can vote for multiple listings.

Chimo mate - I wondered about that, but what if there where more than one failure?

Cheers

[ozscott]

actually...my tech knowledge is failing me here fellas...how do I amend the Poll to include "no faults" for OWNERS of the nominated motors?

Cheers

[bigjimg]

This will be interesting to say the least.Good idea Scott,we''ll see what comes out in the washup.Please be honest everyone,there is no shame in matters mechanical.For me so far so good,except that little hiccup a few weeks back but that does not count.Jim

[Jabba_]

I just ticked Honda because Spaniad King, being a Honda Tech, who has not owned a E-tec ticked the Evinrude box.. LOL

Oh, these 3 dont own E-tec's either, andkat (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=47175), bunji9 (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=68672), Greg P (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=40355)

[Greg P]

I just ticked Honda because Spaniad King, being a Honda Tech, who has not owned a E-tec ticked the Evinrude box.. LOL

Oh, these 3 dont own E-tec's either, andkat (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=47175), bunji9 (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=68672), Greg P (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=40355)


Jabba - I have personally experienced an ETEC failure in my brothers boat

Stick to your fuel calculations pal.

[ozscott]

The Poll does not state ownership - it can be personal experience by being on a boat while the problem occurs. However - when the Poll is amended to include OWNERS that have had no problems then that option will just be for owners cause only owners can truly say that there have been no problems with the particular engine (but conversely non-owners can say that they have been on boats and a problem has developed while on board).

Cheers

[ozscott]

Jabba - if Gary personally experienced the ETEC fault he is within the bounds of the Poll...he may for example have been on the boat or serviced the engine with a fault. Can you please remove your Honda 4 stroke vote (if that is possible) cause its not a tit for tat exercise mate, I (and many others) really would like have our own JD Morgan type Poll...And Garry if you have not personally experienced it it has to go mate otherwise the Poll becomes a "I heard of a motor" poll - even if you are absolutely sure of the truth of a failure, if you didnt see it it didnt happen for the purposes of this Poll.

Cheers and thanks

[team_mongo]

Does a 5hp on a tender count?

[ozscott]

Mate I know I was hammering on in another ETEC failure thread about 15-25k engines, but yep its all relative so a 5hp provided it is one of the modern motors listed is in!

Cheers
PS. If the mods see this poll can they please tell me how to change it for OWNERS with no failures

[finga]

Cannot comment.
Never had a motor that young so never had a problem really. :D

[captain rednut]

SO WHEN DOES LIMP MODE BE CLASSIFIED AS SERIOUS ENGINE FAILURE???
i THOUGHT IT WAS A PROTECTION DEVICE? HOW WILL THIS THREAD BE WORTHWILE IN DETERMINING SERIOUS FAULTS WITH ANY ONE BRAND?
CHEERS CR

[Spaniard_King]

I just ticked Honda because Spaniad King, being a Honda Tech, who has not owned a E-tec ticked the Evinrude box.. LOL

Oh, these 3 dont own E-tec's either, andkat (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=47175), bunji9 (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=68672), Greg P (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?u=40355)

Jabba, I ticked etec as we nipped 1 up, melted a piston on another and killed 2 ECU's on Ficht engines when I was working for Seaworld. These were less than 12 month old engines, I recon that falls into the Evinrude category.. certainly wont fit in the suzi one:rolleyes: Please point out where the original poster asked for owners only to vote.. think it says those who have "experienced"

FYI yet to come across a honda that fits into the above category :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Those second hand Hondas are coming up soon if your still interested :wink:

[Smithy]

2005 Johnson (rebadged Suzuki) 140hp cracked head @ 2,300 hours in January 2010.

[lampuki]

Hi....interesting thread.

I too hope honest feedback is provided.

I think number of hours is just as/if not more important than number of years.....


Cracked an alternator bolt on my opti, but I got home ok so I dont know if that would count as a serious failure??

[Jarrah Jack]

I'm a bit like finga, never had a new boat or car or motor..Thank god for GMC power tools.:smiley:

[ozscott]

...thanks Smithy...must admit didnt think about commercial motors...anyway worth sticking in.

How will limp home mode be relevant? Well, because unless it was just water pump failure or a placcy bag over the intake then it has failed to do what it was designed to do, advertised as doing, and expected to do from a buyer's perspective. Just cause it reduced revs to stop catastrophic failure does not mean it didnt fail...it failed to behave as you would expect - ie max revs when you want them and smooth running. If you were in a bar in limp home mode you might think it failed you...

Cheers

PS. YOU DONT HAVE TO YELL CAPTAIN REDNUT TO MAKE YOUR POINT...

PPS Gary is correct - it doesnt have to be the owner but it cant be hearsay (ie someone told you).

PPS. Gary - though thanked Captain Rednut and you are a mechanic - so please explain why you agree with him, so maybe the thread can be expanded/modified to suit what you are obviously thinking - thanks

[ozscott]

In some respects I agree on the hours, but most of us are not commercial guys and if we said inside 3000 hours that motor could then be 20 years old or more and if they are hot miles then 2000 odd hours is not on - its pretty poor for taxi hours occurring in the first 5 years of ownership.

I am confident that with honesty this thread can be worthwhile. Nobody should fear this thread. It may not be perfect, but it should help a buyer - especially if one particular brand is way ahead.

A buyer though will have to take into account advances, especially with the ETEC where the injector issue should not be put to rest (shoulda woulda...)

Cheers

[stinky-stabi]

had brand new efi 4s yamaha broke down once and wouldnt start the very first time out ...both were issues with the service personell and not motor quality though,,,,,,obviuosly they didnt sea test.....thats why bought another brand for the next motor...as dealer service was an issue changed dealers and brands

[finding_time]

hey Jabba , are you going to remove your vote now that garry has explained his or are you still head of marketing at BRP

[lampuki]

Hi Ian - i just read your updated post...cool

[ozscott]

FT - I made it a public poll mate to make it more transparent.

Cheers

[captain rednut]

HI OZSCOTT sorry it was just a flick of a button! i didnt mean to yell. cr

[finding_time]

Hi Ian.

Really...I didnt vote but I could see the results...strange?


There was just a window i had to click , i didn't initally see it

[ozscott]

No worries CR

Cheers

[Spaniard_King]

Scott,

CR was eluding to someone who may vote on a Engine going into safe mode and not allowing the user to get home. Most engines have safeguard paramaters to guard against continued damage to the engine.

IMO the serious engine failure should have been clarified some what to me i.e had a Total Engine failure with a repair cost of over $XXX including warranty support.

[Dave_H]

2 x cut-outs/alarms/low RPM limp home episodes with BIL's 115hp Etec since new purchase very late last year. Cause yet to be completely determined. So far appears to be an oil delivery issue with a new installation.

No spectacular failure yet, but geeze its a great engine when going well (makes my Tohatsu look like a chaff cutter at idle though).

[ozscott]

That is a failure for this Poll mate - limp home is simply not acceptable for a new motor.

Cheers

[black runner]

In order to determine a failure rate and be remotely useful, this pole needs to be quantified against the total ownership no. of each brand in the sample group (ie who owned a motor through the 3-5 yrs old) . As it stands how do you know how many owners of each are answering no to the question. Maybe this could be the next pole and then do the sums.

Without it the figures mean little unless you use market share averages which may or may not translate into ausfish ownership/useage.

Cheers

[Spaniard_King]

Ok,

fair enough.

So where would you put an engine that has an alarm sounding but has no effect on the engine. i.e full performance still available??

[ozscott]

Garry - you make a good point mate. You are saying perhaps that a good limp home system whilst it would register on this Poll would save massive damage that a bad limp home system would actually allow? Yep - agree wholeheartedly, but unless its impeller or plastic bag over the pick up or operator error in running out out of water a new engine going into limp home is a failure under the parameters of this Poll - the failure is serious when you are on the water. The engine didnt low but it certainly didnt perform.

An new engine that misses badly on the water is a serious failure for this poll. Sure the poll might not meet everyone's views, but it will give us a good idea of straight out failure rates irrespective of the cause.

I appreciate Gary's point about the type of failure....so I am going to start...wait for it....another one to go parallel!!!!

Cheers

[Greg P]

2 x cut-outs/alarms/low RPM limp home episodes with BIL's 115hp Etec since new purchase very late last year. Cause yet to be completely determined. So far appears to be an oil delivery issue with a new installation.

No spectacular failure yet, but geeze its a great engine when going well (makes my Tohatsu look like a chaff cutter at idle though).

Exactly the same as brother's 90. 3 consecutive trips out, 3 limp homes. After each time taken to dealer. Last time they changed a heap of oil delivery gear and uploaded (re-mapped) the ECM after BRP master tech was contacted. Since then been faultless and has approx 300 hrs. No injector probs etc. I would consider buying one but gee they are loud at idle.

[black runner]

What constitutes serious engine failure? I would interpret that as a failure of the core components of the motor. ie block, pistons, rods, bearings, head/valve train, gears/gearbox

Cheers

[ozscott]

BR - See the new poll for SERIOUS SERIOUS failure so people can get a gauge of total failures in this thread that include everything from limp home to thrown rods, and then actual catastrophic failure alone in the other Poll.

Cheers

[black runner]

In order to determine a failure rate and be remotely useful, this pole needs to be quantified against the total ownership no. of each brand in the sample group (ie who owned a motor through the 3-5 yrs old) . As it stands how do you know how many owners of each are answering no to the question. Maybe this could be the next pole and then do the sums.

Without it the figures mean little unless you use market share averages which may or may not translate into ausfish ownership/useage.

Cheers

Hey Scott, you also need the above

Cheers

[ozscott]

Ok,

fair enough.

So where would you put an engine that has an alarm sounding but has no effect on the engine. i.e full performance still available??

Gary - I appreciate your points mate. So now for this Poll that is an annoyance and assuming its not because of a problem it is not a failure. Paint coming off the cowel for this poll is not a failure.... If the engine does not run as it should - missing, limp home mode, rod out the side of the block its a failure.

Polls dont have to be perfect do they in order to provide at least some guidance to owners. Gary unless Honda's have a propensity to be overly sensitive on the alarms and limp home why should Honda owners/sellers be overly senstive about this Poll (:)) - I mean I would have thought the last person with anything to fear from the results of these polls would be Mr Honda...but perhaps I am wrong...perhaps the perceptions are wrong....we shall see...and thats the beauty of the Poll.

Cheers

[murf]

I can't vote

1800hrs on the merc 4 stroke and no probs other than an alarm for leaving the MUFFS on :rolleyes: 6hrs of trolling and flitting about then only on the way home at full noise did it alarm haha

had a re-call on the rectifier but it lasted three more years after the recall before it stopped working, all replaced on warranty no worries and didn't stop or slow me up :smiley:

I did make it back-fire one day as you only need half a second on the key to start hot or cold and I only give it 1/4 of a second and it back-fired blowing off an air hose that wouldn't let the motor rev more than 2k, that was quickly fixed :wink:

cheers Murf

[Steeler]

What is this poll hoping to achieve ?. This site does not represent all outboard owners only those who are members of the site.

Based on that it will not give you a true indication of whats more reliable than the next regardless of whether its a black,white blue or any other colour for that matter.If anything percentages will suggest the most units sold by a particular manufacturer will feature highly simply due to the weight of numbers sold. Based on that i don't believe its going to give any owner of a particular brand bragging rights over another.

Steeler

[ozscott]

Steeler - but surely this owners represent an even cross section of new outboard owners. As for what it will achieve, an indication hopefully of reliability (not the last word, not the most definitive word...but an indication)...cause I am confused, and also not just a little sick of years of debate about engine reliability and brand v brand and seeing no data on here.


Cheers

[ozscott]

I suppose though a reader of this Poll would need to take into account total numbers of the particular outboard sold...for eg if etec had 20% more failure rate on this poll than Honda but outsold honda by 20% then they might even out somewhat.

BR - If you have a gearbox failure - for eg you cant engage gear its a failure for this poll.

[Steeler]

Not when this site would be lucky to represent 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 01% of outboard owners.

Just my thoughts

Steeler

[Spaniard_King]

Scott,

Mr Honda does have nothing to hide.

I was simply stating that the modern engine has a significant engine managemant system that can perform in several modes and in some cases non the wiser to the operator.

I am sure most people would be happy for the engine to be notifying them of an issue rather than driving them till they stop aka old style technology. I would rather be hindered than forking out for rebuilds weather that was the engines fault or the owners.

here is one for you, Your at sea and an intermittent alarm sounds What would you do? Note: most people would not have a clue what to do. The modern day engine should have a water detecting alarm (most common alarm for a boat which lives outside 24/7) What would you do? because if you do nothing your engine will stop.. SOON? Now who's fault is that?

I educate all my customers on how there engine management/allarm systems work something which 90% of dealers fail to do.

[NormC]

Hang on. After more than 20 years of boat ownership (6 different boats), the only major failure was Johnson 6 HP, back in about 1991 - but it was over 15 years old. And I can't vote Johnson!!!!!!!!

I've owned Merc (2), Yammy (1), Evinrude (1 - a Fitch ), and another Johnson. No other failures - even the Fitch served me well.

But I've just ordered a 75 E-Tec for my new boat. Bugger, is my good run about to come to an end?


Norm C

[Dicko]

PS. I have not included Tohatsu - I thought there were not enough around to worry about but if people disagree then just let me know


That's the only brand of motor I've owned that hasn't let me down. :smiley:

Had 2 of them, would have bought another but I wanted bigger than they currently do.

[ozscott]

Gary - good to hear. Does not surprise me about Honda reliability at all. Look I know that polls like this are not bullet proof...but its an indication. And Steeler stats I agree can be skewed by too small a sample, but if people take that into account then this is still useful. Its just one small piece in the puzzle of those looking for a new motor. And for those not looking its something of interest. The comments that a poll like this provokes might be even more interesting.

Cheers

[hakuna]

Scott,

Mr Honda does have nothing to hide.

................
I educate all my customers on how there engine management/allarm systems work something which 90% of dealers fail to do...............

I had an alarm 120km off the mainland, could not work it out, ended up both motors shut themselves down. Rang the Mechanic with dismay and some panic, dealer should have explained after 20 hours an alarm goes off for service and then after a few hours shuts it down, explained how to do a system reset and all was good. May have been dumb not to read the service book but surely the dealer could have just explained what would happen

cheers

[Huey]

Hi, my 2 cents worth, it would also be a good idea for a person claiming a major powerhead failure to post serial numbers so that can be confrimed.

From my own experience my 225 HO has over 500 hours of pretty hard use due to be run as a training boat for the Bridge to Bridge and alot of hours social skiing and she has held up well. As for what we see here day in, day out we have seen 5 powerhead failures of E-TECs and the last was over 2 years ago. We have seen three I-3 failures and two were suspect due to one engine going for a swim and the other being the second owner and the engine was set for XD-100 and he was using cheap oil not knowing that. We have had one I-2 fail on a commuter boat with alot of hours on it and not much care and one V4 powerhead failure that was traced back to the boat builder placing the floor on the fuel line and casusing a restirction in the fuel flow and the engine ran lean.

Cheers,

Huey.

[ozscott]

Thanks Huey - with that lean one, is there an alarm of other warning to show the lean condition; especially given what we know about lean running causing major engine damage?

Cheers

PS. Does the fact that the last powerhead 2 years ago for the etec's reflect more developments in the injectors more recently - ie less chance of lean out?

[Huey]

Hi Scott, a good company should always learn from failures and on latter model higher HP units there are knock sensors to help with a lean running or more likely a bad dose of fuel scenario. I think you will find these work their way down too if HQ are getting alot of failures relating to a lean condition.

Can not answer that second part mate but yes I suspect BRP have learnt from what has occured in the "real world". All in all we have not had big failure rates and a small percentage would be related to a lean running condition, most if they get past about 50 hours can be caused by the wrong prop. The number of engine we see thru here that are overpropped and causes the engine to lug is quite high and lugging an outboard is the worse thing you can do to it and then you throw in dodgy quality fuel and the problem becomes worse. Of course any brand of outboard, that are all made from humans, can have a faulty part from new, but trust me a conrod that may be faulty will not last much more than a few minutes under the stresses they are subject too and BRP are the only engine that run ALL their engines at ALL RPM for 13 minutes before shipping-I have seen this with my own eyes, so you would think a faulty part like a rod or something will fail in the test tanks before the unit is shipped.

Cheers,

Huey.

[bushbeachboy]

Hi, my 2 cents worth, it would also be a good idea for a person claiming a major powerhead failure to post serial numbers so that can be confrimed.


Cheers,

Huey.

It's not a court Huey. In any case, how would you expect to find out any information at all, other than what is posted? I'd imagine that neither the dealers nor manufacturers would provide confirmation or otherwise with regard to a private matter between them and the owner.

[Huey]

It's not a court Huey. In any case, how would you expect to find out any information at all, other than what is posted? I'd imagine that neither the dealers nor manufacturers would provide confirmation or otherwise with regard to a private matter between them and the owner.

Hi, no one said it is court, but a dealer like myself can easily see if a certain engine with a serial number has had a warranty claim against it and it really stops alot of false posts and on another, world wide site dedicated to just one brand I am involved in, this is not an issue and on this site there are a small number of actual failures and alot of posters once we ask for a serial number seem to not post anymore due to not be able to supply a serial number that is legit.

Just a way on confirming actual failures and not the typical I know of someone or a mates boat, but if someone is not happy to post a number than I for one would not pay much attention to this sort of vote- all brands have this same system and for both the black and white engines I can put a serial number in, see if it is in warranty, see, in the case of the black engine, that it has been serviced by the book and see what warranty claims have been processed elsewhere to determine if a problem is reoccurring.

Cheers,

Huey.

[Steeler]

That's the only brand of motor I've owned that hasn't let me down. :smiley:

Had 2 of them, would have bought another but I wanted bigger than they currently do.

I was chewing the fat with a Tohi dealer the other week and he was saying that the computers on the Tohi's only go up to 1500 hrs after that they stop counting.

Certainly hear bugger all bad stories about them though.

Steeler

[nigelr]

Yep should have included Tohatsu. Maybe more around than you suspect, just don't hear a lot of problems.

[Noelm]

I guess like all polls there is nothing to (say) stop me putting a vote in for E-tec or Yamaha, even though I have never had one, just because I don't like them, and there is plenty of one eyed supporters who would do just that (more or less as Huey mentions) but as in all things poll/internet based, it is intersting to at least get a gauge on whats what, without weeks of work, and very willing manufacturers and a host of honest owners, you will never get a true factual account of failures.

[Argle]

I would be interested to hear what failures actually were on other brands, I notice all brands listed on the poll have respondants but so far it seems all the talk to be E-Tec related other than Smithys post re the Johnsuki.

Cheers
Scott

[White Pointer]

G'day,

I voted and ticked the Mercury 4-stroke box.

I've told this story before but I voted and I think issues and solutions are as important as the statistics.

It's a Mercury 3.5HP 4-stroke.

From new it had this problem of cutting out when warmed up and the sound was like running out of fuel. So I carried spare fuel and topped it up when it cut out and sure enough it would always start up again.

I was out on Deception Bay one day and a storm came up. And it cut out not long after I had refueled it. That place gets nasty in a 4.3M ROSCO canoe with about 100mm of freeboard. So there I was trying to paddle to keep it stable, bale it out and pull the engine cover off to check the tank level visually. There was no shortage of fuel in the tank.

I put the cover back on and it started so headed towards the mangroves at speed to get shelter before it cut out again and then I hugged them up to the entrance to Newport. Until it cut out again crossing the channel with lots of boats coming towards me fleeing the storm. What a place to break down! I let it drift out of the channel, towards the rock wall and chucked the anchor out.

I pulled the engine cover off. Fuel level was OK but I refueled it to the brim. Got it going again and got all the way to Scarborough Boat Harbour and shelter.

So I took it in for it's first service at Cunningham's at Clontarf and told them the story. They were incredulous. They sell these things and never see them again. Whether that's because they are super reliable or all the owner's drown, I'm not sure.

They ran it in their water tank and sure enough, after about 20 minutes running at 3/4 throttle it died. They checked fuel, lines and taps and replaced the spark plug. Started it up and it ran fine for about 20 minutes and then it died. They pulled the thermostat and checked cooling system flow rates, put it back together again and ran it and it died. They finally tracked it down to a faulty CDI. It would get hot, break a contact and cut spark. They said they had never seen it before. It took a few weeks to get a new CDI from the USA.

I think that warranty repair cost Mercury more than I paid for the engine, but Cunningham's were great.

Regards,

White Pointer

[NormC]

I understand Scott's motivations in starting the poll and I applaud them, but I am VERY sceptical of the results so far.

I apply my own judgement to the credibility of posters on this and other forums, based on the nature, helpfulness, tone and content of posts I see over time. There are some very credible and helpful posters on the forum and some that are ..... well, not so credible. I just had a random look at about 25% of those who have voted. I found two who have NEVER previously posted on the forum (both voted for the same brand) and another with only 6 posts. It seems that votinig in a poll does not count as a post.

Now, number of posts is not a great indicator of credibility, but for at least two people to come out of the wood work to vote, with no explanation or comment is in the least a bit suspect.

I have no idea how to run such a poll in a better way on an anonymous forum, but Huey's idea of posting Engine Numbers is a start, but that is not likely to happen, so it does not matter.

I'll continue to apply my own judgement to credibility on this thread through posted explanations of failures in the belief that will give a better picture than the raw vote, which (despite Scott's best efforts) is somewhat suspect.

Norm C

[Spaniard_King]

I agree somewhat with you Norm.

There was no need for a Poll as such, Those who wanted to could post their experiences and left us all to gather what we wanted to from the said posts.

[business class]

Scott,


here is one for you, Your at sea and an intermittent alarm sounds What would you do? Note: most people would not have a clue what to do. The modern day engine should have a water detecting alarm (most common alarm for a boat which lives outside 24/7) What would you do? because if you do nothing your engine will stop.. SOON? Now who's fault is that?

I educate all my customers on how there engine management/allarm systems work something which 90% of dealers fail to do.


ARGH the water alarm this is familar, very loud and annoying sound that screams at me constantly..... I cant blame it when i had hundreds of litres of water coming over the engine while backing down;D ........ Was an easy Fix, called my trusty (honda)mobile mechanic;) who had it fixed within 15mins of the phone call. Now i am now fully aware of what to do when that noise happens again (which i am 100% sure it will), as i actually S#*t when i first hurd the noise:'( .

Can i vote if i was fishing with another boat and there engine S#*t itself?

[Jabba_]

Jabba, I ticked etec as we nipped 1 up, melted a piston on another and killed 2 ECU's on Ficht engines when I was working for Seaworld. These were less than 12 month old engines, I recon that falls into the Evinrude category.. certainly wont fit in the suzi one :rolleyes: Please point out where the original poster asked for owners only to vote.. think it says those who have "experienced"

FYI yet to come across a honda that fits into the above category :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Those second hand Hondas are coming up soon if your still interested :wink:The poll calls for Evinrude E-tec, not Ficht.. Very different motors IMO...

Won't be buying any brand off motor for a while now, but when I do, Honda are certainly on the list, along with Yamaha, Verado and Evinrude. It will come down to $$$ on what I will buy....

[ssab1]

Im in the market for a new 90hp, going by what was posted in this poll Im not any wiser but its looking like an Etec ,had johnos and evinrudes all my life not one failure, cheers alex

[The-easyrider]

I have had my Mercruiser 4.3L MPI fail to start which resulted in a tow home. Also have had my Evinrude di let me down but that was from someone not doing there job properly while it was getting a service.

[ozscott]

...

Can i vote if i was fishing with another boat and there engine S#*t itself?

Yes mate - this is not the owners Poll that was started later - this is just a personal experience poll so if you are on the boat and saw it go down your a voter!

Cheers

[ozscott]

I agree somewhat with you Norm.

There was no need for a Poll as such, Those who wanted to could post their experiences and left us all to gather what we wanted to from the said posts.

Gary - understand your feelings on this mate...but, there must be a whole heap of people like me quite confused over the years, and interested in at least an indication (not a lay down proof type situation but merely AN indication) of engine problems with various brands in the new tech sphere and within a reasonable time of ownership given when the new tech came out universally. And the hits on this and the parallel poll support that (just under 3,000 at present). I think that says something. Again I accept that the polls are open to criticism and I am not asserting that they are anything like the last word, but they have a place I reckon.

Cheers fellas

[Moonlighter]

Been on board when Yamaha 250 hp HPDI, 3 years old, 220 hrs failed in a big way. Destroyed engine, 2 pistons melted. Limped home 8kms, though!

Cause: Previous USA owner had been running a rediculously big prop on the motor that wouldn't let it rev past 4500rpm. When boat purchased and shipped to Aust, my mate (the new owner) immediately replaced prop with new correct sized one, but the damage had obviously been done. Lesson learned: never buy used boat without an on-water test that shows that the fitted prop revs out correctly.

Not sure that all Yammy's should be in this poll together - the HPDI's and 4 strokes should be separated to give a clearer result.

[Catweb]

I know several pro fishermen who ditched their Honda's within the first 3 years due to HORRENDOUS corrosion problems. Can that be considered a major failure?

[Spaniard_King]

I know several pro fishermen who ditched their Honda's within the first 3 years due to HORRENDOUS corrosion problems. Can that be considered a major failure?


Well Mate I would say yes but if you go by Jabbas book of poll voting NO as it was a previous model no longer in production;) Nice try but they fixed all those isues in the preceeding models;D

[ozscott]

...

Not sure that all Yammy's should be in this poll together - the HPDI's and 4 strokes should be separated to give a clearer result.


You are right mate. I thought about that when I did it...I also thought about Merc Optimax and 4 stroke clumping together. In fairness I was three parts cut...:o

Cheers

[Jabba_]

Well Mate I would say yes but if you go by Jabbas book of poll voting NO as it was a previous model no longer in production;) Nice try but they fixed all those isues in the preceeding models;D

Not my book, the poll states Evinrude E-tec, not Ficht or VRO..... So I would assume all older models outboards are not supposed to be voted on... That is my understanding......

[siegfried]

2005 Johnson (rebadged Suzuki) 140hp cracked head @ 2,300 hours in January 2010.
Was that due to salt deposits in the cooling system Smithy, I have seen it once before and if so it is avoidable. As for the rest of the poll well if anyone here is bullshitting they are not only doing it to everyone on here but they are bullshitting themselves as well and I would like to think that is not the case . If honesty offends someone its safe to say you wouldnt want to be their mate in the first place. Seen a 3mth old ETEC shit itself- 90 hp one and they could not get it to run and it was replaced with a new one and has had 3 injectors replaced, 2 under warranty. No problems in the last 12 mths and 60 more hours. Now this poll is simple so lets cut the shit and get on with it cause if done right could be a useful tool for not only prspective buyers but owners as well.

[ozscott]

Not my book, the poll states Evinrude E-tec, not Ficht or VRO..... So I would assume all older models outboards are not supposed to be voted on... That is my understanding......


Spot on. FICHT was not a proper development of the technology and it would be unfair to the new entity that does its development and learnt from the FICHT and has tidy push and pull bits inside the motor.

Cheers

[ozscott]

... Now this poll is simple so lets cut the shit and get on with it cause if done right could be a useful tool for not only prspective buyers but owners as well.

I must admit to thinking the same thing on several occasions since (made the mistake of) starting it....having said that some blokes have come up with good examples that make their problem a knife edge and difficult to apply to the poll..so be it but in the end IF there is honesty it SHOULD be a guide at least, as long as people go and get some stats of market share in Australia eg - if Honda has 20% of the failures on here and Evinrude 40% but Eninrude outsells Honda with its ETEC 2:1 then the failure rate is the same....

Cheers

[Smithy]

Sounds a common problem on the early model Suzukis with high or commercial hours. That and a problem where they eat out the alloy on the casting on the exhaust side. My mobile guy has seen that on a Suzuki that services the Noosa houseboats and one on a rec boat with around 400 hours on a Johnson 90. Post 2008 they went to a billetted aluminium which is suppossed to have fixed the problem with the heads. Another club boat with 140s has just had to have all it's seals done as it was dropping oil at about 700 hours and the old shark net contractors 140 seized once he lost the contract and parked it up at 4,000 hours. He had one of his gearboxes rebuilt (dog gear rounds off so when you drop into gear it takes a while to engage) and I had just got mine done before I lost compression. He did get 4,000 trouble free hours though beforehand pretty much. A couple of spanner crabbers here had a bad trot with Suzukis and have just gone Yamaha. I did have a $450 idle sensor replaced at one stage.

Never did a full analysis of why mine failed. A fair few looked it as a possible rebuild project but it ended up going to the wreckers. I was flushing it on muffs probably every 2nd or 3rd day of use if I was home in daylight hours and I was out every day and then running Saltex through it the last day of good weather if I knew some wind was coming and it was going to be off the water for a few days.

All that said, I do know of 2xF150 Yamahas that have blown up very early on. Monday morning or Friday arvo motors. One did a crank at 60 hours. The other guy is a member on here and it just stopped. Forget what happened but he might chime in or Gary would know what happened there. Another F150 I know about from mates at Bundy had injector issues for a fair while. It sounds like it is sorted now but it did linger around as a problem for them for ages.

[DALEPRICE]

225 mercury optimax chucked in the towel at 750 hours.
Lucky had the other engine to come home on. Lots of money pumped
into it and it went well again.

New age modern outboard motors are just like cars, if they make that
many of them you are going to get lemons along the way.
cheers dale

[murf]

New age modern outboard motors are just like cars, if they make that
many of them you are going to get lemons along the way.
cheers dale

hows it going Dale :)

and age will hurt the electronics, carn't imagine working on a 30yo electronic outboard :o

cheers Murf

[DALEPRICE]

gday murf,
all good up here mate. Living in paradise mate, just need to get up to
1770 one of these days again. You still making that devils drink lol....
cheers dale

[murf]

gday murf,
all good up here mate. Living in paradise mate, just need to get up to
1770 one of these days again. You still making that devils drink lol....
cheers dale

:) yep yep ;) :o

cheers Murf

[gofishin]

...Not sure that all Yammy's should be in this poll together - the HPDI's and 4 strokes should be separated to give a clearer result. Yeah Grant, and same for the Merc Opti vs 4 stroke. How can you combine different technologies in a poll when all manufacturers have had real problems with their DI technology, yet minimal with their 4 stroke?

Never created a poll before so not sure if you (ozscot) were limited in sections, but to be a 'worthwhile poll' they need to be separated.

And yes, the use or 'abuse' can play a major part in failure. If you tried you could cause any motor to fail - some just don't know they are trying to break their their motor.

PS. I good friend had 2 consecutive major failures on 250 HPDI's, one within 7hrs and the replacement complete block within 2hrs. But, this was not uncommon on the early big block HPDI's. If they past 50hrs they were classed as good!
cheers

[ozscott]

Yeah Grant, and same for the Merc Opti vs 4 stroke. How can you combine different technologies in a poll when all manufacturers have had real problems with their DI technology, yet minimal with their 4 stroke?

Never created a poll before so not sure if you (ozscot) were limited in sections, but to be a 'worthwhile poll' they need to be separated.

And yes, the use or 'abuse' can play a major part in failure. If you tried you could cause any motor to fail - some just don't know they are trying to break their their motor.

PS. I good friend had 2 consecutive major failures on 250 HPDI's, one within 7hrs and the replacement complete block within 2hrs. But, this was not uncommon on the early big block HPDI's. If they past 50hrs they were classed as good!
cheers

From the previous page mate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?p=1168101#post1168101)
...

Not sure that all Yammy's should be in this poll together - the HPDI's and 4 strokes should be separated to give a clearer result.


You are right mate. I thought about that when I did it...I also thought about Merc Optimax and 4 stroke clumping together. In fairness I was three parts cut...http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/Original%20Smilies/shocked.gif

Cheers
Boat: Seafarer Vagabond
Live: Great South East....love Moreton Bay fishing

Cheers

[hercules]

Sounds a common problem on the early model Suzukis with high or commercial hours. That and a problem where they eat out the alloy on the casting on the exhaust side. My mobile guy has seen that on a Suzuki that services the Noosa houseboats and one on a rec boat with around 400 hours on a Johnson 90. Post 2008 they went to a billetted aluminium which is suppossed to have fixed the problem with the heads. Another club boat with 140s has just had to have all it's seals done as it was dropping oil at about 700 hours and the old shark net contractors 140 seized once he lost the contract and parked it up at 4,000 hours. He had one of his gearboxes rebuilt (dog gear rounds off so when you drop into gear it takes a while to engage) and I had just got mine done before I lost compression. He did get 4,000 trouble free hours though beforehand pretty much. A couple of spanner crabbers here had a bad trot with Suzukis and have just gone Yamaha. I did have a $450 idle sensor replaced at one stage.

Never did a full analysis of why mine failed. A fair few looked it as a possible rebuild project but it ended up going to the wreckers. I was flushing it on muffs probably every 2nd or 3rd day of use if I was home in daylight hours and I was out every day and then running Saltex through it the last day of good weather if I knew some wind was coming and it was going to be off the water for a few days.

All that said, I do know of 2xF150 Yamahas that have blown up very early on. Monday morning or Friday arvo motors. One did a crank at 60 hours. The other guy is a member on here and it just stopped. Forget what happened but he might chime in or Gary would know what happened there. Another F150 I know about from mates at Bundy had injector issues for a fair while. It sounds like it is sorted now but it did linger around as a problem for them for ages.

Rob apparently it was a big end bearing that stuffed my 150 yam 2 weeks before its 2 year warranty ran out ;D . Got halfway through the tweed bar turned around and limped back rather noisely to the ramp , turned it off and it never went again .From what i've heard it wasn't common and didn't deter you from buying one and me again either . It had nearly 500 hrs on it i think and was probably a friday arvo motor (knowing how my lackies go after lunch on fridays nothing surprises me ;) )
Craig

[Coontakinta]

That's the only brand of motor I've owned that hasn't let me down. :smiley:

Had 2 of them, would have bought another but I wanted bigger than they currently do.
Am on my first and touch wood am in the same league:)

[Coontakinta]

Yep should have included Tohatsu. Maybe more around than you suspect, just don't hear a lot of problems.

True, but its relative I think.
The greater the number of units out there there higher the chance of duds. Bit like saying a maybac is far superior in reliabilty than a commodore I think

[Coontakinta]

Im in the market for a new 90hp, going by what was posted in this poll Im not any wiser but its looking like an Etec ,had johnos and evinrudes all my life not one failure, cheers alex

Sorry for the multiple posts, but cant seem to multi-quote here:-[
ssab, do yourself and your hip pocket a favour and DONT discount the Tohatsu, especailly the TLDI. Ona par with many other DI's I feel, but I'm biased as a 5 year owner;D

[marvin]

Ozscott, I haven't added a vote as I just wanted to check this info is suitable.
I trade in a 150hp etec 2007 model with 240hrs on it that I brought new, on a 200 hp etec 2007 model with 500hrs on it. The etec was fitted onto another boat with new owner and first trip offshore 28 miles out to sea, it did an injector and dropped to only 5 cylinders, marine dealer told me this yesterday. ? sould that quantify a vote in your pole?
@nd issue with my 200hp the starter motor spline with the little cog on it that runs up to engage the starter flywheel dry ceased on the bottom of the spline. Could not start motor at 0130hrs 60kms offshore. Luckiliy we had some tools and pulled the starter off the block and managed to file off a burr on the spiral spline and uncease the little cog, lubed it up and got us back home after rebolting the starter back on. Not sure if getting things going urself excludes from the poll? Cheers Kev.

[ozscott]

Hi mate - second one for sure. The first one, if you were personally aware of it from being on the boat then no problems.

Cheers

[stevej]

can i vote if

helping a fella pick up bits of his 90hp etech gearbox after he was towed in and we wiggled the prop a bit a bit to look at the 8 inch hole in the side of the box

club social
sponsored etec guy came in with also half his 150ishgear box housing ripped out and had to wrap a towel and gaffa tape round it to hold everything in, witness by 30 odd people

they count ?

[ozscott]

Mate - I reckon they are personal enough...vote away my friend.

Cheers

[Chris_2184]

was heading out wide on mates kevlacat and one of twin 140hp zuki's came to a grinding metal crunching stop , second time it's happened on that same engine.

[ozscott]

Hope you voted Chris...

Cheers

[NAGG]

My 60 yammi - suffered catastrophic gearbox failure @ 18 hrs - Apparently there was an extra bit in there :o

Motor fixed and touch wood 350hrs of hassle free running to date

Chris

[NAGG]

Well ... The poll results dont surprise me (double the failures for ETEC over any other brand) .....
That would fit in with what I have heard around the traps - or from owners that I know.

made me shudder when I saw several ETECs with their heads off at a Sydney dealership a few years back .

Chris

[ozscott]

Well ... The poll results dont surprise me (double the failures for ETEC over any other brand) .....
That would fit in with what I have heard around the traps - or from owners that I know.

made me shudder when I saw several ETECs with their heads off at a Sydney dealership a few years back .

Chris

Mate - all we need now is for someone to post up (after substantial research!!!) the sales figures in Australia for those engines in the comparo above. Having said that it would be fair to say that Honda would sell significantly less motors than yamm and Merc and probably etec so the results are skewed somewhat accordingly when we are talking totals not percentages of engines sold. Having said that I cannot immagine that there have been more etec's sold than Merc on one hand or Yammy on the other so certainly the results indicate a higher failure rate for etec over other brands. Having said that one would expect that etec being recent tech might be a lot better in future with ongoing development, but then again the poll was open to all optimax where in the early days they had a reputation amongst the unkind as "poptimax" and had some real issus so you woud have to expect that people would have voted those early ones in in this poll...so again its hard to get away from the high failure rate of the ETEC in this poll.

Cheers

[NAGG]

Mate - all we need now is for someone to post up (after substantial research!!!) the sales figures in Australia for those engines in the comparo above. Having said that it would be fair to say that Honda would sell significantly less motors than yamm and Merc and probably etec so the results are skewed somewhat accordingly when we are talking totals not percentages of engines sold. Having said that I cannot immagine that there have been more etec's sold than Merc on one hand or Yammy on the other so certainly the results indicate a higher failure rate for etec over other brands. Having said that one would expect that etec being recent tech might be a lot better in future with ongoing development, but then again the poll was open to all optimax where in the early days they had a reputation amongst the unkind as "poptimax" and had some real issus so you woud have to expect that people would have voted those early ones in in this poll...so again its hard to get away from the high failure rate of the ETEC in this poll.

Cheers

Sales volume of each brand do skew results of these types of polls - but , when you talk to boaties (owners) ...... general consensus is Hondas reliability - Reasonably positive for Yamaha , ETECs power at the expense of reliability , Suzukis growing reputation & ..... not too much said about Optis (positive or negative).
But the standout is the unreliability of Etecs - too many require repairs / rebuilds / injectors.

Chris

[Jarrah Jack]

A good origional thread Ozscott, well done...Its not emperical and it could never be, so there will always be descrepencies sort out...I wonder if Etec Aus has found this thread. I know through experience that Honda Aus has found a thread here were its name was mentioned, did it what!..So I'd be surprised if other brands don't have similiar lookouts in their search engines going straight to the marketing people.

Cheers

[grayzeee]

honda - a cut above the rest

[ozscott]

Thanks Gents. As has been pointed out to me along the way there are issues with the Poll and I understand those, but I reckon it does have value.

Cheers

PS. Market feedback can be a great motivator to a manufacturer who is listening.

[davo]

I think you should add Tohatsu TLDI/4stroke and all the 2 stroke variations

[Noelm]

I kind of doubt you would get too many old fashioned carby 2 strokes that have had a major drama from new (ish) they are simple and tried and tested technology, so to include them is probably not going to add anything, and most manufacturers no longer have them anyway.

[ozscott]

I agree Noel...they just keep banging on, smoking away, and offending the greenies.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I will bounce this one back up given the ETEC thread...

Cheers

[eumundiemu]

This may lead to another poll------was the dealer helpful

[bassfan]

But the standout is the unreliability of Etecs - too many require repairs / rebuilds / injectors.

Chris

Hopefully, the etec issues relate more to their earlier models and have since been sorted, cos I've just layed down my hard earned on a 2010 model 90hp.:'(

[Jabiru658]

I kind of doubt you would get too many old fashioned carby 2 strokes that have had a major drama from new

Yah I thought that too (although my Honda 4 strokes been very reliable) but...

my 6 hours of running time 3 cylinder Yamaha 30 horse (old fashioned carby 2 stroke) failed out in the middle of the lake on me. It was a simple fault, a missing locking clip on a y shaped bit of metal that makes a rod move that links to the levers on the carbies (but not something I was able to fix out on the water).

All I knew was that suddenly the twist throttle felt very stiff and wouldn't move more than about 10% of it's normal travel and the engine wouldn't start.

I used the electric to get back to the closest boat ramp, dragged the boat up onto the shore as far as possible, got a lift around to the other boat ramp I'd launched from (thanks good samaratin) brought my ute and trailer back and winched it back on.

Took it to the dealers and it took them about 60minutes to find out what was wrong and 30 seconds to fix it. They said they couldn't find the circlip sort of thingy anywhere in the engine and they could only assume it hadn't been put on at the factory.

I voted E-Tech in the poll however as I when was out boating with a mate of mine and his E-Tech started running rough and then died on us. I'm not sure of the details but it required some rebuilding.

[myusernam]

sort of a stupid poll lumping merc 2 and fours together - two totally different engines and technologies.
and for that matter even different engines in the same group. ed v6 ficht gen1 and 2's blew up, but the v4's never did. Different hp engines can even be made by different manufacturers and rebadged. Like the jono 140 was a suzuki.

[ozscott]

Why not lump them in. I did the same with yamaha. Manufacturers have to get it right across their entire range. We have a reaonable idea of the breakup of sales for each brand and now we have failure rates for those brands. We are running our own more direct jp morgan and the results are pretty telling. Cheers

[Dave_H]

Oz, looking back through this thread I spoke of the ills of my Brother In Law's brand new Evinrude around twelve months ago. The problem was eventually tracked down to some plastic production swarf in the oil tank set-up that had been (from what I understand) drawn into the line or some filter somewhere.... causing the said alarms/limp home mode I spoke of previously.

Since that has been fixed I cannot stop the b*gger raving about how good it is....!!!! I had put a vote there for the Etec however the installation appears to have been let down by an external factor, so probably worth disregarding the vote I put there towards the Evinrude. Dunno if I can remove the vote I put there?

Regards,

Dave.

[ozscott]

Thanks Dave. Hopefully a mod will read your post and delete your vote. BRP need all the help they can get on this poll. Cheers

[cormorant]

I think a production fault that took ages and repeated fixes still qualifies as not good enough out of the box regardless of brand..

Can only hope they put it in the database and passed it back to the factory for all dealers so the next person to experience it gets a quicker resolution. Nice when the dealers actually persist and solve it rather than blow you off.

Hope they fixed him up with a heap of extra oil or accessories for all his hassle.

[Beatsworkin2]

Had Mercs all my life grandad dad included never a problem last boat 1600 hrs just bought new boat 6 months ago 150 etec awesome but will see when it gets over 500 hours on it wot is going to do so far about 120hrs and running great and I will never buy a Honda as there cars are s$$$ can't wait for a Toyota outboard

[hellfish]

Hey Beatsworkin2. Do a bit of googling for Toyota and Yamaha Motor Companies and you'll find out just how much cross development they do and how much investment each company has made in the other. Ya Toyota outboard is sorta already out there.;D

[Lucky Loz]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that if a lot more people bought E-Tec's , then the percentage of faults will be higher because a lot more were bought. To really get ANY value out of this poll , you would have to poll how many people bought each type of motor .

[theangryangler]

I voted my yamaha i used to have. not really a serious failure but it did leave me stranded near curtin reef at 5pm when a swell rolled thru.
Had to be rescued/towed back with VMR, so to me it was a big issue for me at the time
Yamaha 4 stroke 60 , 28 hours all services done and it just died no alarms nothing!! everything checked out ok just would not
fire. Next day at the mechanics started fine and never had a issue again! no alarms or anything when plugged in either......
still to this day dont know what it was........

[WalrusLike]

Uneducated guess would be a temporary fuel blockage? Blocked nozzle? Any other sort of fault would repeat I would think?

[ozscott]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that if a lot more people bought E-Tec's , then the percentage of faults will be higher because a lot more were bought. To really get ANY value out of this poll , you would have to poll how many people bought each type of motor .

Really? Where are the figures for that Lucky? I thought Yammy still sold the most motors...

My understanding is that Yammy sells the most motors worldwide and certainly in Australia I see way more Yammy 4 stroke than ETEC at the ramps and on pro-boats...cant imagine that is seriously in dispute but let me know...

Cheers

[fisho64]

still to this day dont know what it was........

safety clip/kill switch :-)

[ozscott]

... I have done that...

Cheers

[hooked up]

STAY AWAY FROM ETECS
If you dont want to spend 3-3500 on repairs on an 09 model etec stay away buy a decent 4 stroke just got my 130hp etec looked at for using to much fuel and not getting full revs only revving to 5000 rpm after propping it to rev at 5800-5850 i was told the exhaust actuator was broken at the shaft and only method of fixing it is to replace the whole middle section of the leg. Cost 2100for middle section of leg 3-3500 grand after labour these are endless money pits and not all their cracked upto be and also customer service from brp is non exsitant and be carefull dealing wuth a certain etec dealer in ashmore as the will not return my actuator saying i need to pay a $95 invoice for undoing 8 bolts holding my cowling on and 3 bolts that hold the actuator on after already spending hundreds of dollars with them to fix the problem in the past and not doing so only making it use more fuel and not fixing the problem they assured they had fixed to me now in the hand of fair trading qld BE VERY CAREFUL IF CHOOSING AN ETEC
There goes the start of the mackeral season
I know this is in another thread just want all people considering etecs to know about thier problems if its a problem in this thread aswell moderator please remove