breaking at the hook

[Wahoo]

for bottom fishing, i have 100lb leader, sometimes 120lb, my set up is a drop sinker, and about 400mm up from that i have the hook, loop off the leader, i feed the loop thru the eye of the hook and over to create a hitch type, ( this make sense? ) last trip the line broke twice on me right on the hook, i must of had 20kg drag maybe more on the reel, leader is Jinki, why would this happen? is there a better knot/setup that i should be using??

thanks

Daz

[Fish_gutz]

you can actually put the hook through twice and it makes what is called a cats paw and is way stronger than just feeding it through once. I hope this makes sense..... bit hard to explain.

Andrew

[reidy]

Gday,
100lb with 20kg drag applied.100lb at 33%=34lb(the old 2 thirds ratio).34lb=around16kg ish.Loop at the hook loose 15% of leaders breaking strain aprox.
Drags to heavy (20kg) for the leader esp when looped through the hooks eye .may-be
Cheers
Reidy

[Wahoo]

Andrew, i dont think i have enough room to feed the line thru the eye twice

cheers

Daz

[Wahoo]

Gday,
100lb with 20kg drag applied.100lb at 33%=34lb(the old 2 thirds ratio).34lb=around16kg ish.Loop at the hook loose 15% of leaders breaking strain aprox.
Drags to heavy (20kg) for the leader esp when looped through the hooks eye .may-be
Cheers
Reidy

wow, Reidy, thanks, never seen or heard of this i dont think, might look into a heavier leader

cheers

Daz

[GBC]

Generally it's just the eye of the hook slicing the line because dropper loops lay against the cut in the steel = breakages.

[finding_time]

Andrew, i dont think i have enough room to feed the line thru the eye twice

cheers

Daz

Daz

He is not talking about going through the eye twice but cats pawing it around the line twice!! I'll try to explain!

Pass the loop through the eye then over the hook as normal, now instead of pulling tight twist the loop 180 degrees then pass back over the hook then pull tight and slide the loop back up of the the hook and onto the line ! This means you should have 11/2 loops around the line before it enters the hook eye not just a half loop!

Ian

[reidy]

you loose a fair bit of the leaders breaking rating looping through the eye.The heavy drag pulls the line tight around the hooks eye creating a pinch point and she parts under load.The heavier the drag the quicker she parts.
Cheers
Reidy

[Noelm]

GBC is on the money, never did like the loop system, far better to have a single dropper and tie a knot, 20 times better than the double loop system, there are some hooks that are welded at the join, these will make a slight difference, but a double line also reduces your chances of a "bite" just by virtue of twice as much line for crafty fish to "see".

[Wahoo]

Daz

He is not talking about going through the eye twice but cats pawing it around the line twice!! I'll try to explain!

Pass the loop through the eye then over the hook as normal, now instead of pulling tight twist the loop 180 degrees then pass back over the hook then pull tight and slide the loop back up of the the hook and onto the line ! This means you should have 11/2 loops around the line before it enters the hook eye not just a half loop!

Ian

OK thanks Ian/Reidy, just went out and did this a few times, looks alot better

Daz

[Wahoo]

GBC is on the money, never did like the loop system, far better to have a single dropper and tie a knot, 20 times better than the double loop system, there are some hooks that are welded at the join, these will make a slight difference, but a double line also reduces your chances of a "bite" just by virtue of twice as much line for crafty fish to "see".

yes have seen them hooks but yet to try them, maybe cause im lazy, but the loop way makes changing hooks and sinkers quick and easy, but at a price by the looks

cheers

Daz

[ffejsmada]

Hey Daz, what reel are using for this???

Cheers Jeff.

[ped cairns]

Daz i use the same and have had same problem a few times thought it must have been sharked or such, i thought double the line must be better wrong again.

Are you better off trying those 3 way swivels and tying off hooks, i have had them in tackle box for ages and never opened might try next break in weather

ped

[tunaticer]

My money is on two things happening, first by just throwing the loop back over the eye does not lock the hook and gives movement esp when inder load from a hookup. Invariably the line will run against the raw end of the eye of the hook and abrade it starting the failure. Solution is to catspaw the hook with the loop so it locks tight to the hook or change your rig setup to avoid the loops.
On heavy gear I like to crimp a short leader onto the main drop line at spaces to suit the rig (simply place the crimp sleeve over the mainline and feed in the leader from the bottom side and crimp off then tie the hook to the end of the leader). This presentation tends to work better than loops with less failures if you use black crimp sleeves, alloy or bright ones attract the toothy critters esp on the drop.

[jtpython]

I use a loop on the bottom and the sinker above with a figure 8 knot for the loop. Then slide a inch electric shrink over the line then same as you loop the line thru the hook as you do then pull tight then slide heat shrik over the eye then heat then bob's ya uncle nice tight fit and not rubbing onto fishes mouths and movement. Never had it break at the eye unless it's worn thru after abrasive coral on big fish ..................Keeping a watch on it i have other rigs ready to go and check occasioly to make sure all is good.
http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo159/jtpython/PICT0006.jpg
jt

[Wahoo]

Hey Daz, what reel are using for this???

Cheers Jeff.

Hi Jeff, im using a Saltiga 6500 with upgraded drag

Daz

[Wahoo]

Daz i use the same and have had same problem a few times thought it must have been sharked or such, i thought double the line must be better wrong again.

Are you better off trying those 3 way swivels and tying off hooks, i have had them in tackle box for ages and never opened might try next break in weather

ped


Hi Ped, i'm thinking as GBC and Jack have said the line is rubbing in the corner of the eye, yeh i have the same in the goodies box but have not had the chance using the 3 way swivels, might give this a shot, but you know how it is, when the reds are biting it is very quick and easy doing it the way im using the setup...lol...

Daz

[Wahoo]

I use a loop on the bottom and the sinker above with a figure 8 knot for the loop. Then slide a inch electric shrink over the line then same as you loop the line thru the hook as you do then pull tight then slide heat shrik over the eye then heat then bob's ya uncle nice tight fit and not rubbing onto fishes mouths and movement. Never had it break at the eye unless it's worn thru after abrasive coral on big fish ..................Keeping a watch on it i have other rigs ready to go and check occasioly to make sure all is good.

jt

thanks JT, how many do you pre rig for a trip?

Daz

[ozbee]

theres nothing wrong with your rig , there is quite a lot of jobfish coming through at the moment and a lot of people put it down to sharks jobfish have teeth like cats .round and inter meshing so they can break at anytime in the fight .small ones up to 8 kg you will occasionally land before they bite through .around 30 lbs and more i use 200 lb leader and would average 1 in six landed at most boy they can fight and bite.

[Wahoo]

theres nothing wrong with your rig , there is quite a lot of jobfish coming through at the moment and a lot of people put it down to sharks jobfish have teeth like cats .round and inter meshing so they can break at anytime in the fight .small ones up to 8 kg you will occasionally land before they bite through .around 30 lbs and more i use 200 lb leader and would average 1 in six landed at most boy they can fight and bite.


thanks ozbee, what is your main line? im running 80lb braid, would you think 150-200lb leader is a bit much in my case?
cheers

Daz

[jtpython]

I have anywhere between 20 to 30 made up at a time in sealed plastic bags ready to go. Depends how much the missus and kids give me the shits will go and do a heap up.
I will use up to 5 rigs a trip at times depending on the fish rate. If i get a abrasive cut in it i'll look it over and if to bad change it straight away.
That leader is 100lb mono. i then have 80lb Jigman Braid it'sincredible stuff but dear $130 for 300m on my new bottom bashing setup.
The mono i use is Afurua very stiff . Tried that 10x leader but it's crap for using anywhere near coral was like it was to soft.
JT

[LBGaddict]

Heat WILL damage your line.
The problem is purely from the line being pinched in the small gap between the end of the hook wire and the shank. We find this to be an issue when fishing for submarine sized Sambos in shallow volcanic country (not like the pussy spawners in southern WA). Stick with your drag setting, it sounds about right for 120lb but go harder if you can. As other posts have said just tie a knot with the 2 strands. Or switch to hooks with a flemish eye. Although it is alot easier to tie the knot.

[jtpython]

Heat WILL damage your line.
The problem is purely from the line being pinched in the small gap between the end of the hook wire and the shank. We find this to be an issue when fishing for submarine sized Sambos in shallow volcanic country (not like the pussy spawners in southern WA). Stick with your drag setting, it sounds about right for 120lb but go harder if you can. As other posts have said just tie a knot with the 2 strands. Or switch to hooks with a flemish eye. Although it is alot easier to tie the knot.
Yes heat will if you heat the line. But i have been using this technqic for over 3 years and haven't put HEAT onto the mono. Using a heat gun from the hook up heat shrink (the proper heat shrink from electrical shops) is designed to shrink with hot air very quickly
Sorry
JT

[Richard]

Hi Daz,

I've had the same problem and I think it was because of the Jinkai. I use it for my barra outfits and the like but i think it's too soft for a paternoster style rig and tends to cut more easily on the end of the metal that makes up the eye of the hook.

I just changed to some el-cheapo 100lb mono line which is much harder and fairly springy (which i'd never use for trace materail on a casting outfit) and that has worked well. It's also a little thicker which I find doesnt really seem to bother the reef fish when bottom bouncing up here.

Richard

[Noelm]

the use of a double line as in the rigs used serves next to no purpose other than the lazy angler can change a hook quickly, it does not increase line strength, one strand goes, the hook is gone, so far better off to use a better system (single strand) and tie a good knot, a knot will take a jiffy to tie, and will increase your catch simply by not losing so many fish from line cut!!

[LBGaddict]

Yes heat will if you heat the line. But i have been using this technqic for over 3 years and haven't put HEAT onto the mono. Using a heat gun from the hook up heat shrink (the proper heat shrink from electrical shops) is designed to shrink with hot air very quickly
Sorry
JT

good shit, does it close down under less heat or just faster? have thought about using it for ages, just paranoid about damage.

[Wahoo]

Hi Daz,

I've had the same problem and I think it was because of the Jinkai. I use it for my barra outfits and the like but i think it's too soft for a paternoster style rig and tends to cut more easily on the end of the metal that makes up the eye of the hook.

I just changed to some el-cheapo 100lb mono line which is much harder and fairly springy (which i'd never use for trace materail on a casting outfit) and that has worked well. It's also a little thicker which I find doesnt really seem to bother the reef fish when bottom bouncing up here.

Richard

Hi Richard, i have 2 types of Jinkai in the 120lb, Jinkai and Jinkai plus, one is softer than the other, but i cant remember which one is the one im having probs with

cheers

Daz

[finding_time]

Daz

Mate stick with the loops, i agree there's not alot of strength to be gained with loops it's probably the opposite as the loop knot is not a good one , but it's a very fast rig to tie ( i reckon i could have one tied with hooks and swivel and sinker in under 1 min) and when the fish are chewing and your loosing rigs it's the best bet! There is no doubt imho that it's the end of the loop that is cutting the line but cats pawing the loop will keep the line from being cut by this! I wouldn't worry about heat shrink unless you enjoy wasting time i just dont see the point as reds seem totally unfussed on how the baits presented so long as it's big! I use jinki and have never had an issue with it but if using that drag maybe up your leader to 150lb the fish wont care at all! I have used 250 on the deck winch , they dont give a stuff!

Ian

[Wahoo]

thanks Ian, i did go out and get me 150lb Jankai and will give this a shot first up and see how it goes

cheers

Daz

[jtpython]

good shit, does it close down under less heat or just faster? have thought about using it for ages, just paranoid about damage.
Lawerance and Hanson if you have one where you are the 5mm i believe it is .

I bought a heat gun from Bunning to use fior the purpose of this . Little of both fast and less heat compared to the cheaper stuff i was getting thru hardware shops. 3 x 1.3 m lengths was about $25
I swear by what it does specially when there are undersized reds hammering you all the time
JT

[siegfried]

I sacked jinkai years ago and now use momoi on all our leaders and traces from light stuff to 500lb on big lures. I use the uni knot for nearly everything and on deep rigs the bran swivels(ones with the sleeve) and crimp em

[ozbee]

150 lb pound trace is the minimum i use up here and at times it not enough. stick to the basic loop , one way is to snell a hook above . if in middle of day and trout are touchier i may slip back to 120lb . don't always go fo the dear brands of leader . cheaper one like sure strike is more economical . leave the last hook about half a metre from the sinker . sharks are the only ones that readly take the sinker for dinner . ive used two hundred pound leader many times when somebody gets a jobby. jobby are usually in a school but move on quickly. 150 is a good all rounder rand if snelled will usually enough to get a jobby with out going to wire most of the time

[nickstock]

Hi ozbee,

Do you ever have troubles with the fish shying away from the 150lb?

When I am chasing table sized trout in less then 20 meters I rarely use over 60 pound leader. On saying that I have been bitten off a few times.

I usually only use max of 80 pound leaders for all other reef fishing . I have been bitten off a few times but I have put it down to Sharks or Macs?

Next time I fish the deeper reefs I will step up to 150 pound and hopefully I may get a jobbie?

Cheers,

Nick

[Reefmaster]

Biggest mistake most make is just looping there paternoster loop through the hook eye. I have always tied my loop on to the hook like you would with a swivel. It's bloody strong and has double the line strength where the fishes mouth is going to be rubbing and causing abrasions. We all use this method and never have we broke the line and we only use 80lb rigs.

I have used 150lb Jinkai before and broke it with ease... It doesn't tie well and doesn't like to be kinked in anyway. Most mono's over 100lb do not tie well and weaken greatly doing so. Crimping would be a better option for those heavier leaders.

Can I ask why your using 20kg of Drag on Reds?

Cheers,
Greg

[finding_time]

Hey Greg

Mate i notice the ganged hooks, do you all ways use these? I've been using these big strong circle hooks and when the red bites just feeding it 2 meters of line and bingo i'm hooked! Have you tried big circles? I guess i would worry about straightening those Mustards on the deck winch!

Ian

[Reefmaster]

Hey Greg

Mate i notice the ganged hooks, do you all ways use these? I've been using these big strong circle hooks and when the red bites just feeding it 2 meters of line and bingo i'm hooked! Have you tried big circles? I guess i would worry about straightening those Mustards on the deck winch!

Ian

Hey Ian yeah I pretty much always use gangs but I have used circles before. I only use circles on deck winches and I have not used them for about 5 years now. Prefer rod and reel.

Greg

[Crisp Bee]

Now that is a decent bait.... Stuff the Pillies:o

[Wahoo]

Biggest mistake most make is just looping there paternoster loop through the hook eye. I have always tied my loop on to the hook like you would with a swivel. It's bloody strong and has double the line strength where the fishes mouth is going to be rubbing and causing abrasions. We all use this method and never have we broke the line and we only use 80lb rigs.

I have used 150lb Jinkai before and broke it with ease... It doesn't tie well and doesn't like to be kinked in anyway. Most mono's over 100lb do not tie well and weaken greatly doing so. Crimping would be a better option for those heavier leaders.

Can I ask why your using 20kg of Drag on Reds?

Cheers,
Greg

G'day Greg, thanks for that pic, i will try that setup this Sunday and get back to you, 20kg drag as i got bricked a few times, also we have come across some very large reds (15kg) but dropping a few about 5m above the bottom, is this because of no streach on the Braid? line not breaking but pulling hooks, i try and use the thickest gauge hook, any ideas????


cheers

Daz