Manual Over-ride brakes on tandem axel - 1 set of wheels or both sets?

[Heath]

Am getting to the stage where I am needing to replace my hubs and discs on my trailer which is manual over-ride. Everyone I have spoken to seems to find it weird that I have brakes on all 4 wheels of my trailer rather than just the front set.

My question is, how much difference would there be if we went to 1 set of brakes in-stead of two? The trailer pulls up well as it is, just wondering going forward if the extra hassel of maintaining 4 sets of brakes instead of two is worth it.

The trailer is a tinka, whole rig would be just under 2 ton.

Interested in thoughts....

[finga]

According to VSB1 (Building small trailers) brakes need to be on the wheels of at least one axle for GTM between 750kg GTM and 2000kg GTM and for over 2000kg GTM brakes need to be on all wheels.
So it'll come to the weight of your rig Heath :)

[Chimo]

Hi Heath

Is it cable or hydraulic?

If I was able I would run cable disc brakes and not hydraulic as the larger spaces around the mechanical levers with cables make it so much easier to keep them rust free. Fish oil the cable before you get it wet and it will last for years.

I had a single axle mechanical braked trailer in the past and it was great. Now have a 2 tonne plus 4 braked hydaraulic elec over-ride which works well but you either spend time and money annually on rebuilds or keep the brakes out of the water and in my case I use an electric winch to haul the boat onto the trailer.

If I was you I'd stick with mechnical and I don't see any reason why these couldn't be on 4 wheels, just need 2 cables and a separate pully and adjuster at the hitch. Probably not a legal requirement but would be nice anyway if the boats under 2 tonne.

Cheers
Chimo

[PADDLES]

g'day heath, my rig's under 2t and has got manual over-ride brakes on the front axle only, it always seems to pull up ok, tow car is a landcruiser with 4 wheel disks. like chimo has stated, keep the manual cable style brakes if you can get away with it, they're heaps cheaper to service/maintain/replace than hydraulic or pneumatic systems.

[finga]

Out of curiosity...what's the rego on a tandem trailer under 2000kg now??

[bigjimg]

Out of curiosity...what's the rego on a tandem trailer under 2000kg now??
Finga if you like you can pay it for me.$127.30 Dunbier SRW5.7T.Jim

[Heath]

The brake system is cable. Not looking to change it. Just wondering if it's worth keeping all 4 wheels braked or just the front 2.

How mine works is that there is a cable between the two calipers to which the cable that goes to the goos neck connects to. So when on the picks it operates all 4 sets of brakes.

[Chimo]

Heath

If it works keep all four.

I reckon however, it would be easier to adjust, if you duplicated the cable and adjuster from the rear brakes to the hitch rather than have the 4 brakes linked.

Cheers
Chimo

[finding_time]

Heath

Mate i've just got cable overide on just 1 axle on the KC ( similar size and weight to the CC)And when ajusted properly::) Pulls the boat up very very nicely !!! make sure you keep it on the front axle though!;)

Ian

[SunnyCoastMark]

Hey Heath,
For Tandem Trailers under 2 ton rear brakes are unneccessary for a number of reasons:-

1) You have twice the maintenance.

2)Tandem Trailers should be loaded so the at least 60% of the weight is forward of the axle group. - This pervents "fishtailing" . It also means that there is less weight on the rear axle, thereby reducing breaking effeciency.

3) In view of the above, you may actually be losing some of your breaking capacity, because, some of the inertia is being lost through the transfer to the rear axle which has less weight on it. (if that makes sense)

We occasionally have customers asking about dual overide brakes at work and I advise against it, not only for the above reasons, but also for the extra cost involved.

If it were my trailer - I would remove the calipers from the rear axle - keep them as spares for the front.

Just out of curiosity - what are you towing your rig with?

Mark

[oldboot]

Like may issues in trailers ther reason mant tandem trailers dont have 4 wheel brakes is COST.

More brakes shoud give you improved braking efficiency.


As for 60% of the load in front of the axle group putting more load on the front wheels.......at worst 10%.....if the trailer has a load sharing suspension, both axles should carry equal weight.

If it was my trailer I would cop the maintenance on 4 wheels of brakes.

cheers

[Heath]

Hey Heath,

Just out of curiosity - what are you towing your rig with?

Mark

Using a 2002 Holden Jackaroo 3.5L V6 Auto.

[White Pointer]

The brake system is cable. Not looking to change it. Just wondering if it's worth keeping all 4 wheels braked or just the front 2.

How mine works is that there is a cable between the two calipers to which the cable that goes to the goos neck connects to. So when on the picks it operates all 4 sets of brakes.

G'day,

It seems like a wierd set up.

I'm no great fan of cable brakes and like you I'm just under the 2.0 tonne where a fully braked trailer is necessary.

If I load the boat with all the crap (i.e. ice boxes, tackle, full fuel, etc) before I leave home I reckon I would be lucky to be under 2 tonne. I'm seriously thinking of a trailer upgrade to a fully braked trailer. I don't want to be marginal or illegal, I want to be safe.

I suggest that you load up your boat with everything you carry and take it over a weigh bridge. You might get a shock! If so, you're in the same place as me. If you want some help working this out, PM me for contacts.

Regards,

White Pointer

[oldboot]

G'day,


I suggest that you load up your boat with everything you carry and take it over a weigh bridge. You might get a shock! If so, you're in the same place as me. If you want some help working this out, PM me for contacts.

Regards,

White Pointer

OH hell yeh..........everybody should put their boat / caravan over the scale......and be prepared for a shock.

So much of the time trailers of all types end up pushing the limits of what is legal and what is safe just to meet a price point......after all no one wants to pay for a trailer.

While you are at it check the load carrying capacity of you vehicle....and check the details and fine print. Are the pasegers counted in the load carrying capacity......what does loading the vehicle do to your towing capacity.

Soo many of these things are just assumed.....the last thing we all want to end up with is being pulled up, weighed and end up with a fine and a commeccial towing fee because they wont allow you to tow the thing home.......or worse.....be involved in an accident and find the insurance wont pay.

cheers

[oldboot]

Oh on the subject of the cable arrangement......most of the time cable brakes are used because they are cheap......as a result......often the cable set ups are less than ideal........you realy need to have arrangements in place that provede equal tension on all brake levers and means to properly adjust the slack in the cables.

Additionaly the terminations of the cables should be secure, Almost all of the cable brake systems I have seen ( I look at trailers at boat ramps and wonder)are fitted using wire rope clamps and often only a single clamp at each termination.....wire rope clamps are well known for slipping, in industrial rigging the minimum number of clamps on a termination is 3.

Quite often the cable used is mild steel and not very flexible ( clothes line wire I suspect). This stiff cable does not run freely thru any equalising devices used ( if any)


As a matter of interest...I was up at 1770 the week before last and saw a monster trailer in the car park...tripple axle, landcruser wheels.....Cable brakes on 6 wheels :o . How can that possibly be compliant.

cheers

[Spaniard_King]

As a matter of interest...I was up at 1770 the week before last and saw a monster trailer in the car park...tripple axle, landcruser wheels.....Cable brakes on 6 wheels :o . How can that possibly be compliant.

cheers


OB it certainly couldn't be legal.

Heath you would have to be pushing 2T I would be keeping the system you have and keep it functioning well.

wouldn't cost too much for a full refurb of your system ie

disc machined $80 (all 4)

Pads $60

New cables and pulleys (approx $50)

and some labor

[SunnyCoastMark]

Oh on the subject of the cable arrangement......most of the time cable brakes are used because they are cheap......as a result......often the cable set ups are less than ideal........you realy need to have arrangements in place that provede equal tension on all brake levers and means to properly adjust the slack in the cables.

Additionaly the terminations of the cables should be secure, Almost all of the cable brake systems I have seen ( I look at trailers at boat ramps and wonder)are fitted using wire rope clamps and often only a single clamp at each termination.....wire rope clamps are well known for slipping, in industrial rigging the minimum number of clamps on a termination is 3.

Quite often the cable used is mild steel and not very flexible ( clothes line wire I suspect). This stiff cable does not run freely thru any equalising devices used ( if any)


As a matter of interest...I was up at 1770 the week before last and saw a monster trailer in the car park...tripple axle, landcruser wheels.....Cable brakes on 6 wheels :o . How can that possibly be compliant.

cheers

Hey Oold Boot,
Yes, price is always a factor - you could apply the same logic to falcon v BMW or quintrex v Fisher. However in Trailers - it is not the only factor.

The company that I work as a manager for - apart from producing 6000 trailers per year - we also own most of the hire trailers around Australia eg U-haul; We Hire; Hire me; etc. etc. All of our tandem hire trailers are 2000kg GVM and the all have mechanical override brakes - (mostly Disc).

The fact is - for the price - Cable operated over ride breaks - if adjusted properly are an effecient low maintenance braking system.

We have 5000 odd trailers in hire Australia wide, so of course maintenance is always an issue and there is nothing easier to maintain than disc brakes. A quick glance will tell you how the pads are, if the adjustment is correct and if all cable terminations are still secure. (incidentally we use two clamps at each end and I can't recall a single instance of a cable letting go)


We have used different braking systems in the past - hydraulics are a pain in the proverbial. Electric is fine for customers trailers, but far too costly for hire and useless in boat trailers unless you are talking elec/hydraulic.


As always - especially with boat trailers - it comes down to regular preventative maintenance. Every 12 months you should replace:- bearings; brake cables; fittings; etc.

Tectly, fisholene, lanolin should be applied almost after every trip out.

Brakes should be stripped, cleaned and lubricated regularly; couplings greased etc. etc.

Problem is people don't do the above and then they complain to all and sundry when stuff fails.

Maintenance is always the key.:)

Mark

[Chimo]

Agreed Mark.

I still love my cable / disc brakes. After 9 yrs the fish oiled cable was like new.

So few issues cf to the elect over hydraulic I have now and did the job fine.

Cheers
Chimo

[finga]

As a matter of interest...I was up at 1770 the week before last and saw a monster trailer in the car park...tripple axle, landcruser wheels.....Cable brakes on 6 wheels :o . How can that possibly be compliant.

cheers


OB it certainly couldn't be legal.



Why not??
Brake wise...as long as it had brakes on all wheels if it carried over 2000kg...it should not be a problem should it?

[PADDLES]

g'day finga, i think that in qld, if the weight is over 2t the brake system must automatically come on if the trailer becomes disconnected from the tow vehicle, hence the costly sensa-brake style systems.

[SunnyCoastMark]

g'day finga, i think that in qld, if the weight is over 2t the brake system must automatically come on if the trailer becomes disconnected from the tow vehicle, hence the costly sensa-brake style systems.


Correct.

The tri axle would be OK if it was only registered to 2000kg. Sometimes if people just want a farm trailer or only have a short distance to go - they will have a trailer up - spec'd to carry 3 or 4 ton but only do the rego to 2000kg less hassles for them - unless they are caught on the road by Transport cops. Or have an accident - but hey the customer wants what the customer wants.

You'll probably also find that that tri axle was home built.

mark

[oldboot]

Correct.

The tri axle would be OK if it was only registered to 2000kg. Sometimes if people just want a farm trailer or only have a short distance to go - they will have a trailer up - spec'd to carry 3 or 4 ton but only do the rego to 2000kg less hassles for them - unless they are caught on the road by Transport cops. Or have an accident - but hey the customer wants what the customer wants.

You'll probably also find that that tri axle was home built.

mark

Remember this is a pretty large boat trailer, no one is going to put an extra axle under a boat trailer they do not need, AND you could easily achieve a 3tonne rating on two axles with cruser hubs.
Even with falcon bearings and derating for the larger wheels 2 axles gets you over the 2 tonnes.

Yep you need a breakaway system for any trailer over 2 tonnes nationwide and correct me if I am wrong....operation of the trailer breaking system from the cab

home built or not, compliant is compliant.

Yep mark.... the considerations of a volume trailer manufacture and rental operation are very different to a trailer you own and care about, and carries your pride and joy.

The things you may put up with from a trailer you hire once are very different from the expectations from a trailer you use regularly and may tow considerable distances.

cheers

[SunnyCoastMark]

Remember this is a pretty large boat trailer, no one is going to put an extra axle under a boat trailer they do not need, AND you could easily achieve a 3tonne rating on two axles with cruser hubs.Absolutely, in fact we often build 3 - 4 ton trailers, but sometimes people have a mate who has a tri axle trailer or whatever and they think to themselves - "hey - I will build mine like that" - without really understanding the why's and wherefores - they just know they want it.
Even with falcon bearings and derating for the larger wheels 2 axles gets you over the 2 tonnes.

Yep you need a breakaway system for any trailer over 2 tonnes nationwide and correct me if I am wrong....operation of the trailer breaking system from the cab
Correct

home built or not, compliant is compliant. Unfortunately people often do not want to have to pay an extra $1000 - $2000 (sometimes more) to make their trailer compliant. I could write a book with all the accumulated reasons, excuses and justifications that customers use. All we can do is advise them and legally register the trailer as it complies with the Act. - What they do with the trailer is up to them.

Yep mark.... the considerations of a volume trailer manufacture and rental operation are very different to a trailer you own and care about, and carries your pride and joy.

The things you may put up with from a trailer you hire once are very different from the expectations from a trailer you use regularly and may tow considerable distances. Agreed, but as you say - "compliant is compliant "- Hire trailer or otherwise and believe me when I say that Hire trailers cop an absolute flogging - we have seen it all. The positives in that is that we soon learned what a trailer will and won't take. - The rigours of hire allowed us to fine tune our trailer designs for retail and wholesale trailers as well. - Experience is a great teacher.;D



Mark

cheers


ORIGIN - IT'S NOT ABOUT NSW - IT'S ABOUT QUEENSLAND!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr__Bean]

A hint for anyone looking to get the best out of their cable operated disc brakes, and an essential item if you are going to run multi-axle ones.

When the brake is applied to cable brakes a lot of the brake travel is lost to the initial tightening of the cable, up to half of the braking effort can be lost to actually getting the cable(s) tight in the first place. Sure this can be adjusted right up so that the pads drag but if you want them to release properly then in a normal installation this can be a substantial loss.

The answer is to take the time to fit cable thimbles to each and every point that the cable ends.

See picture below

https://www.teksupply.com/wcsstore/EngineeringServices/allbizunits/prodimages/full/as1102a.jpg

The stainless thimbles are available at whitworths for about 2 bucks each and you just have to pry them open to get them through the hole in the caliper arm and them squeeze them closed again with multi-grips before running the cable through.

Yes they do fit in the hole, although I did have to run a drill through one of mine to remove a forging burr first.

Whilst it may only be a little thing in the installation it makes a big difference to how quickly the brake cable first comes tight, especially when you have multiple terminations on balanced dual axle setups.

- Darren

[Chimo]

Good point Darren and can I add one more.

Although it shouldn't be necessary in many cases, even on brand new discs, there is a need to have the disc rotors machined in order to be able to adjust the brakes to optimize their operation.

My experience was that it was impossible to adjust the brakes for optimum operation without machining.

When I initially adjusted the brakes the pads heated the discs and bearings etc by rubbing on the high spots. After machining things worked well and no more over heat issues in a set up with very little time lag before the brakes operated.

As with all things, this is just a case of attention to the details to allow one to live a life free of unprogrammed excitement! ( like not being able to pull up when you need to)

Cheers
Chimo

[oldboot]

I think the last two posts reinforces my preception that so many of the cable brake systems are just slapped together and do not work to a level that the components will allow.

I had not thaught about the slack produced in each and every eye termination.

Think also about the friction and cable stiffness that can impare operation at each and every bend and junction.

If quality materials, work methods and regular maintenance are used these systems would have to work better.

Rather than just string it all up with a bit of wire from the hardware a couple of wire rope grips and a cheap turnbuckle.
How about shackles, thimbles, swaged eyes, proper pullies or equalisers, decent turnbuckles and some nice flexible stanless wire....it would have to work better.

cheers