Diesel vs unleaded?

[reddybayfisher]

I have been looking at a 4x4 for some time now - numerous car yards looking for what I am after....however a yard today called to say that a diesel 03' GXL Prado will be in next week....what I would like to know is : is diesel worth it / compared to unleaded....

The misses doesn't like the word 'Diesel' so she is wary....

I know you get more kms with diesel - but I work from home and only run to the boat ramp or shopping - rarely do long trips over 200kms...

Any advice is greatly appreciated....

[Kleyny]

In the larger 4bs i do believe diesel is the go but the smaller one the the dual cab ute i prefer petrol.

The 3l td prado uses allot less than a 4l v6 one.

neil

[TimiBoy]

If you are towing, diesel is a no brainer. High torque is what you want, and the diesel will deliver, in abundance! If not, maybe horsepower is your thing.

My 3.0 diesel auto patrol murdered my mate's 4.8 petrol Patrol and another's petrol Prado on the sand. Test drove the 200 series Cruiser in petrol, the diesel is a much better car if you tow, and uses less fuel in all cycles.

I have consumed a lot of OP rum.

Tim

[ak73]

diesel for sure

[murf]

was a petrol boy in the early 80's then they when they made bigger diesels (2.8 in the Hilux) I was converted and would never go back to a petrol motor (I should never say never haha)

I also run on bio diesel 100% that I make which makes it a no brainer:P

cheers Murf

[GBC]

I have been looking at a 4x4 for some time now - numerous car yards looking for what I am after....however a yard today called to say that a diesel 03' GXL Prado will be in next week....what I would like to know is : is diesel worth it / compared to unleaded....

The misses doesn't like the word 'Diesel' so she is wary....

I know you get more kms with diesel - but I work from home and only run to the boat ramp or shopping - rarely do long trips over 200kms...

Any advice is greatly appreciated....

Depends on what the attributes of a diesel are "worth" to you.
Straight dollars wise, to recoup the extra over cost of a diesel tojo over the same model petrol will take about 400 000 kms from new - well proven. With the kms you are talking the answer would be - no.
Other things to sway towards the diesel however : much better retained value, better range out bush, towing benefits (although the 4l motor will do it easy - just likes a drink).
'03 was pre d4d, so get it checked for head issues and make sure the books are complete before spending anything. A sick/abused diesel is something you definitely don't want.

[Kleyny]

What is your normal/ average trip?
IMO Diesels don't like doing short trips to the shops and back where they don't get to stay at operating temperature for a decent time.
They much prefer to be on a good run.

I do remember reading a 4b mag just recently where they did a comparo on diesel and petrol. They running cost (including purchasing) turned out to be very similar.
But as a few guys here said diesels win hands down for towing the big toys.


neil

[chisel]

'03 prado diesel was thirsty and relatively gutless (under 100kw) compared to modern diesels.
If I was buying an '03 I'd probably got for the petrol - it will be cheaper to buy, about the same to run and HEAPS more power.
Or go for a Pajero. The '03 pajero DiD had about 115kw or something like that.

[SandStorm]

I wouldn't touch a petrol...

[reddybayfisher]

What is your normal/ average trip?
IMO Diesels don't like doing short trips to the shops and back where they don't get to stay at operating temperature for a decent time.
They much prefer to be on a good run.

I do remember reading a 4b mag just recently where they did a comparo on diesel and petrol. They running cost (including purchasing) turned out to be very similar.
But as a few guys here said diesels win hands down for towing the big toys.



neil

My average round trip wouldn't be over 100km - as I work from from I only do the food shopping and take the boat to the ramp - which is about 5mins away....


I wouldn't touch a petrol...

Can you please give me a reason for your opinion.....

[rowanda]

we went through the same question 6 months ago.
Missus needed a new car and we looked at the Paj and Prado. We went for the Paj with the DID even compared to the prado D4D as she found it better to drive. I have had several 4x4's over the years from Paj V6's to cruiser petrols and hilux diesels. I must say the pajero diesel is a beautiful car to drive (missus thinks so as well which is the main thing) and the fuel economy compared to a mates same year (2006) petrol is fantastic. We towed a 2Ton caravan with 3 kids and heap of gear for a 2000km road trip and averaged 13.3L/100km which I was pretty happy with
Rowan

[Lucky_Phill]

reddy, I have been pondering this or similar question for a while now.

Here is my thoughts / take on the situation.


Diesel V Petrol ( we'll say hi -luxs and Navaras etc )

twice the amount of services than a petrol and each service much more costly

Initial cost way more than petrol

cost of diesel per litre is more than petrol

economy is about the same although petrol specs come up better

diesel issues re , maintenance that would be expected over a 10 year period,, say a set of injectors and fuel pump, timing chain or belt ( many belts for toyos ) and maybe turbo rebuild if it has one

petrol issues... mmm uummm head work maybe ?

diesel has better resale value, torque is well up, able to run bio diesel


So we have a diesel costing more to buy, run and maintain but has a better re-sale value. :-/

I know of old hi-luxs ( petrol ) that have done well over 400k and still pumping. So don't go down the longer lasting motor track. ALL engines will last a very long time if they are WELL maintained.

I will do the figures one day:-

I'll do a 3ltr petrol hi-lux Vs a 3ltr Diesel Hi-Lux and the same for a 79 series cruiser.

Be interesting over a 10 year 300k spread.

I have a sneaking suspicion the petrol are going to be more " economical ".


phill
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[Lucky_Phill]

My first lot of data to date is:-

1999 Toyo s/cab petrol 4 x 4. man. Hi lux

Petrol....new price 29,590.......trade in.....4200 to 5900

1999 Toyo s/cab diesel 4 x 4.man. Hi lux

Diesel...new price 32,450......trade in....5000 to 6900

so, new price difference.....2860.....value now 1000 difference. to the diesel.

Now for the 1999 75 series ute, 4.5 pet and 4.2 dies. man.

Petrol....new price......43,830.......trade in............. 8,500 to 10,800

Diesel...new price........45,670....trade in..................9,500 to 11,900

new price difference... 1,840......value now 1,100. difference. to the diesel

Not encouraging figures for the re-sale aspect of the debate. It came as a surprize to me.

At todays rate, diesel is 9% dearer than petrol ( average over the last 2 months ).....hey it's only an example. :-/

say you used 2500 litres of diesel and 2500 litres of fuel ( don't worry about kilometers just yet ).... it would mean you spent $250 over this literage MORE on diesel than petrol. It was a yearly estimate of fuel usage, so over the 10 year period that would be about $2500 MORE on diesel than petrol. AND the re-sale is about 1,000 diff. mmmmm not looking good at this stage.

We could consider the servicing:-

diesel :- oil filters and oil every 5,000k's......$85
oil filters, air and fuel & oil every 10,000k's....$135

so.... 30000 a year is 3 changes at $85 and 3 changes at $135 tot..$1470.

petrol;- oil filters and oil every 10,000....$50
air filter at 30000........................$25.. 3 x $50 and 1 x $25..tot.$175.

multiply that by 10 years worth:-

Diesel.....................$14,700
Petrol.....................$1,750................. ....OUCH !

mmmmm that re-sale advantage looks shakey !!!!!!!

NOW DON'T JUMP ON ME, THESE FIGURES ARE NOT EXACT, BUT MERELY AN ESTIMATE BY MY LIMITED RESEARCH.

To round out this bit:-

Diesel purchase, fuel ( difference ) and maint...outlay.........62,870
Petrol purchase, fuel ( difference ) and maint.. outlay........45,580

now minus the re-sale aspect.............

petrol...................34,780
diesel...................50,970

now to decide do I want to spend 34k over 10 years or 50k ?????

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just my thoughts.....


Cheers phill
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[the lobster]

OK, diesel vs petrol is a common discussion. The basics of it are:

- diesels are more expensive to buy initially
- diesels are more fuel efficient
- diesels have a better resale value
- diesels are better for towing
- diesels are more economical off-road
- diesels have more regular service intervals (ie more expensive to service)
- older model diesels tend to last longer than equivalent petrols, but the gap is closing I think
- if you blow up your engine a diesel rebuild, or a replacement diesel engine will be more expensive than a petrol. But, having said that, diesels tend to blow up less often than petrols.

At the end of the day you will probably find that your yearly running costs will be pretty similar. If you are planning on doing off-road work or regular towing you simply cannot go past a diesel. But for black-top driving it's probably a toss up. You might enjoy the extra power that petrols offer for overtaking etc.

I agree with what others have said about how well pajeros drive on the road, but a prado will eat a paj off-road without doubt. Anyone who disagrees hasn't driven the vehicles in question off road. Toyota vehicles are regarded as far more reliable than mitsubishis and, again, you can't aruge with that. Sure, there will be the odd paj that is still running around with 500k kms on and well done to it, but on average the toyota will last longer.

If you go for a diesel, make sure it has a full service history. A fully serviced toyota diesel will last indefinitely. One that hasn't been well maintained won't have the longevity. This probably also applies to petrol engines.

That's all I can think of for now. Hope that helps.

matt

[the lobster]

cost of diesel per litre is more than petrol

Don't know where you are but here in townsville diesel has been cheaper than petrol since the beginning of the year. It's about 12c cheaper at the moment.



economy is about the same although petrol specs come up better

I assume you're talking about fuel economy here? What petrol 4x4 pulls better fuel figures that it's equivalent diesel? I cannot think of one. I think we are in la-la land here.



I know of old hi-luxs ( petrol ) that have done well over 400k and still pumping. So don't go down the longer lasting motor track.

I know of old Mitsubishi Magnas that are somehow still running against all odds too, it doesn't mean they as good as any other engine the same age. You've got to look at this on average, and on average there are far more old diesels still going than old petrols.



I'll do a 3ltr petrol hi-lux Vs a 3ltr Diesel Hi-Lux and the same for a 79 series cruiser.

There is no such thing as a 3 litre petrol hilux. Not in at least the last 20 years anyway.



I have a sneaking suspicion the petrol are going to be more " economical ".

Looks like you've already reached you conclusion.....

matt

[the lobster]

My first lot of data to date is:-

1999 Toyo s/cab petrol 4 x 4. man. Hi lux

Petrol....new price 29,590.......trade in.....4200 to 5900

1999 Toyo s/cab diesel 4 x 4.man. Hi lux

Diesel...new price 32,450......trade in....5000 to 6900

so, new price difference.....2860.....value now 1000 difference. to the diesel.

Now for the 1999 75 series ute, 4.5 pet and 4.2 dies. man.

Petrol....new price......43,830.......trade in............. 8,500 to 10,800

Diesel...new price........45,670....trade in..................9,500 to 11,900

new price difference... 1,840......value now 1,100. difference. to the diesel

Not encouraging figures for the re-sale aspect of the debate. It came as a surprize to me.

First problem. Redbook trade in figures are hardly a real reflection of prices. If I could buy a 99 hilux for 5 grand I'd be jumping for joy. A 1999 diesel 79 series for $11k? hahahahaha, that's funny.



say you used 2500 litres of diesel and 2500 litres of fuel ( don't worry about kilometers just yet ).... it would mean you spent $250 over this literage MORE on diesel than petrol. It was a yearly estimate of fuel usage, so over the 10 year period that would be about $2500 MORE on diesel than petrol. AND the re-sale is about 1,000 diff. mmmmm not looking good at this stage.

Again, this is completely wrong. Any diesel 4x4 will use less fuel than it's equivalent petrol to travel the same distance. There is no question about that.



We could consider the servicing:-

diesel :- oil filters and oil every 5,000k's......$85
oil filters, air and fuel & oil every 10,000k's....$135

No diesel that I know of recommends that the oil filter be changed every 5000km. Oil, yes, oil filter, no. Similarly, no manufacturer recommends fuel and air filters to be changed every 10000kms on their diesels. There is absolutely no need for that, except for the air filter in very dusty conditions, but this would also apply for any petrol, and cleaning it would do the trick anyway.



Diesel.....................$14,700
Petrol.....................$1,750................. ....OUCH !

mmmmm that re-sale advantage looks shakey !!!!!!!

NOW DON'T JUMP ON ME, THESE FIGURES ARE NOT EXACT, BUT MERELY AN ESTIMATE BY MY LIMITED RESEARCH.

To round out this bit:-

Diesel purchase, fuel ( difference ) and maint...outlay.........62,870
Petrol purchase, fuel ( difference ) and maint.. outlay........45,580

now minus the re-sale aspect.............

petrol...................34,780
diesel...................50,970

now to decide do I want to spend 34k over 10 years or 50k ?????

If you're going to do the comparison you need to at least have your facts right before you begin, and I'm sorry mate, but you don't know what you're on about.

As I said above, the conclusion to this comparison had been reached before it began, methinks.

matt

[Lovey80]

Gee Phill your getting taken to task on this one! I have to agree though, to tow a decent size boat with a petrol you need at least a 4l petrol compared to 3l Diesel and the diesel still seems to do it easier. The 4L petrol will always chew a heap more fuel.

Diesel for me if I am buying a 4x4. If im staying on the tarmack why bother really?

Cheers

Chris

[TimiBoy]

I picked up my 200 Series Diesel Landcruiser 6 months ago. The Petrol model would have pulled the boat just as well, but the fuel cost would have been marginally higher.

The diesel option was an extra $13K. Payoff with my km's is about 29 years, at the fuel cost as it was then (it would be less now as the difference between the fuels has closed). So why did I buy diesel? Simple.

It gave me a woody!!!;D;D;D

Cheers,

Tim

[GBC]

Finally an honest diesel owner.
Good on you Timiboy.
I drive a new crd and I'm stuffed if I can see where any monetary savings are - they're expensive to buy and expensive to own, full stop.
But you can't be a real bloke without one.;)

[Noelm]

OK, heres my slant on all this, I have owned a couple of Petrol Cruisers, and a couple of diesel Cruisers, I would choose the Diesel every time now, I am not one for religious servicing and stuff, I have a 94 Diesel 80 series that I got when it was only a month old, service is an Oil/filter change every Christmas, and a fuel filter, the car has now done almost 400,000 K and has never had the injectors "done" only repair ever (except for ythe usual brake pads and tyres and stuff) was the fuel pump leaked after the "new" Diesel was introduced, the guy said all the early model will leak because of the old type "O" rings or something, now if you buy a Diesel, do not expect to power off at lights and fly up hills and stuff, unless you get a Turbo model, it just wont happen, but they are cheap to run, they seem to last forever and they are slow (ish) never need a "tune up", no such thing as a cold/wet morning start/choke, it will either start, or there is something wrong!

[barra_cuda81]

Gee Lobie get stuck in mate. Diesel for me too. But make mine a turbo variety......

[the lobster]

Gee Lobie get stuck in mate. Diesel for me too. But make mine a turbo variety......

It annoys me when people don't get their facts straight. Yeah my next one will be a turbo too, I reckon.

[SeaHunt]

It can be a personal thing with a lot of people firmly on one side or the other, but if you have owned both and for a number of years you are in a good position to make up your mind.
Since 2002 I am a diesel fan, for 25 years before that I was on the other side of the fence. The most I got out of any petrol engine before it started buring oil and needed a rebuild was about 190,000. I have a mate with a diesel hilux with just under 400,000 on it, it goes just as good as mine with 210,000 on it.

BTW I do Oil and filter every 5000k.
An oil filter for mine is 6 bucks so why not.
Fuel filter every 40,000 k , no probs.

The bit I like best is that it always goes. (Stuffed battery excluded).

Drive through a creek with water up over the bonnet or hose down the motor
makes no difference, starts straight away first kick every time for over 6 years and no trips to the mechanics.

[murf]

so lucky_phil from what you are saying it seems every truck (as in semi trailer style) on the road should be a petrol:P

cheers Murf

[tunaticer]

I've had both several times over and they each have thier own preferences and dislikes. If you are into mountainous countrysides all the time you will love petrol's quicker responses, but for flatter terrain diesels do have an advantage. Apart from that it is a case of edams and cheddars and not chalk... there aint much in them.

Now if you want to talk about gas conversions on both diesels and petrols there is a whole new ballgame with the newer breeds of motors and gas incection systems available.

At the moment however I am in pure bliss not owning a vehicle and driving a company car that costs me zilch.

[Lucky_Phill]

Thanks for the input Matt.

your figures must have been deleted, can't see them ????


OK, it was the 2.7 petrol hilux Vs 3ltr diesel.

At one stage here in Brisbane, diesel was 16 cents per litre dearer than unleaded. on average for quite some time.

Currently....tonight I saw it unleaded 102.9 and diesel 105.9.

I may have already reached a conclusion thanks to your data Matt, regarding the economical differences.



I was merely posing a question and throwing out some figures.... in fact I am reminded that " NOW DON'T JUMP ON ME, THESE FIGURES ARE NOT EXACT, BUT MERELY AN ESTIMATE BY MY LIMITED RESEARCH....

anyway,

The question posed by the thread starter was " is diesel worth it / compared to unleaded.. ? "

well that all depends on the way you look at it. Depends on your usage and why you want to buy one. It is one of those questions that only you can answer.

Probably the best way to do it write down a " priority " order that represents the most important aspects of the 4 x 4 you wish to purchase.

I have not doubt that if you owned a 4 x 4 diesel over 10 years it would remove more dollars from your pocket than a petrol.

Having said all this, I have a Navara 3ltr TD D/cab and am quite satisfied with it.

not great on fuel ( 11.5ltrs / 100 ), pulls the 2 ton of boat to Fraser and everywhere else, 110kw power can get me away quickly, drives like a car rather than a truck, undercover parking clearance is good, LSD and manual hubs are a bonus and all with 5 seats. Same or similar running gear as the patrols, but in a much lighter vehicle which is great for traveling around in la la land ;D 8-)

phill
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[Lucky_Phill]

No diesel that I know of recommends that the oil filter be changed every 5000km. Oil, yes, oil filter, no. Similarly, no manufacturer recommends fuel and air filters to be changed every 10000kms on their diesels. There is absolutely no need for that, except for the air filter in very dusty conditions, but this would also apply for any petrol, and cleaning it would do the trick anyway.

probably fair enough, but is there any diesel owner out there that would change oil WITHOUT changing the filter ???

Is there any diesel owner out there that sticks to the manufacturers guidelines for maintenance 100%.... anyone ?????

simply ' cleaning it ' may do the trick for some, but is that really the way you want to treat your investment ???

Phones ringing..... been invited for an offroad gig at la la land again, better go ;D


phill
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[Lucky_Phill]

As an aside to all this, is there anywhere or anyone that could provide ' accurate " figures to a 10 year diesel / petrol comparison ?

Terms of reference:-

Initial rrp cost
All logbook services by dealer
250,000 kilometers on the odometer with equal driving conditions... fuel usage. ( supplimented with average monthly fuel rrp )
Comparable motor sizes
known maintenance issues
average trade-in price

Would be interesting................................ me thinks ;D or you !


phill
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[the lobster]

Thanks for the input Matt.

your figures must have been deleted, can't see them ????

I may have already reached a conclusion thanks to your data Matt, regarding the economical differences.

I was merely posing a question and throwing out some figures.... in fact I am reminded that " NOW DON'T JUMP ON ME, THESE FIGURES ARE NOT EXACT, BUT MERELY AN ESTIMATE BY MY LIMITED RESEARCH....

This is my point. There is absolutely no point doing a comparison like the one you did. You can't get useful data so you have to base it on estimates (and bad ones in this case, unfortunately) and then you end up with a completely outrageous result. That doesn't help anyone.

I'm sorry for being blunt, but I fail to see how your comparison would have helped the original poster at all, since there were major flaws in it. I would have felt pretty bad if he'd gone out and bought a petrol based on your figures only to find 12 months down the track that they were far from accurate.

If he needed to find accurate data on petrol vs diesel prados, I'd send him to the LCOOL forum to get fuel and maintenance figures from a number of owners, average them out and base his decision on that.

matt

[the lobster]

No diesel that I know of recommends that the oil filter be changed every 5000km. Oil, yes, oil filter, no. Similarly, no manufacturer recommends fuel and air filters to be changed every 10000kms on their diesels. There is absolutely no need for that, except for the air filter in very dusty conditions, but this would also apply for any petrol, and cleaning it would do the trick anyway.

probably fair enough, but is there any diesel owner out there that would change oil WITHOUT changing the filter ???

Is there any diesel owner out there that sticks to the manufacturers guidelines for maintenance 100%.... anyone ?????

I sure as heck don't change my fuel filter every 10000km. Again, what's your point? I'm sure no petrol 4x4 owner sticks to the maintenance schedule 100% either, so what's the difference?

matt

[the lobster]

As an aside to all this, is there anywhere or anyone that could provide ' accurate " figures to a 10 year diesel / petrol comparison ?

Terms of reference:-

Initial rrp cost
All logbook services by dealer
250,000 kilometers on the odometer with equal driving conditions... fuel usage. ( supplimented with average monthly fuel rrp )
Comparable motor sizes
known maintenance issues
average trade-in price

Would be interesting................................ me thinks ;D or you !


phill
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As I said above, the only remotely accurate way to do it would be to survey a number of owners and compile the data. If the OP is interested in doing this, as I said, I'm sure there will be many members on the LCOOL forums willing to provide data.

Would definitely be interesting, but a large and time-consuming job.

I still believe that the costs would end up being reasonably similar overall.

matt

[murf]

the only thing missing here is a camp fire haha

petrol or diesel? like boats its all a compromise as to what your needs are ;)

in the older older older models I had with petrol I loved the 7000rpm I had to get on and off the beach where the under powered diesels had no show. In the rough stuff in the bush the diesels were the go

now the modern common rail electronic injection diesels have heaps of power on the road but they are gutless down low for pollution issues I am told so unless they are chipped it is hard to do a hill start towing boat :-[ Have you seen the price of replacing injectors on these? :o you could almost buy a new 03 Prado (tougne in cheek :P )

the 03 Prado is more old school so would be my pick for a diesel if the price was right

I am into the KISS principal now so all the modern electronics will be a pain for me for what I do

in the end its all about the person who buys the vehicle that it suits their needs/wants with some informed knowledge on what they are buying

cheers Murf

[PADDLES]

absolutely murf, it's horses for courses.

if you do the km's then a diesel works out ok, lpg onto a big petrol motor works out pretty good too for high km usage. beware the lpg if you intend on travel into remote areas, it's available in most towns but once you get out of town a bit you'll be using a very small petrol tank and will have to carry your fuel in cans.

anyone who uses the torque debate needs to drive both to compare them back to back, i've just gone from a 4.2 petrol (on lpg) that went like a frikkin train to a 4.2 diesel that goes like a snail but still does the business anyway, they both pulled a 2t boat like it wasn't there.

diesel servicing is a bit costly compared to petrol and when things do go wrong with a diesel you'd better have your wallet ready (i've just had to replace an injector pump so my wallet is significantly lighter). petrol motors can fail or play up from a multitude of things, generally diesels will rarely fail but will do it in spectacular fashion when they do.

don't buy a 4cyl diesel, they're the most frustrating things ever and the ones that do go good rely on a turbo which is another weak link in the chain but will deliver exceptional efficiency/power gains.

my personal call is that for general around town and beach/bush use go with petrol and maybe get keen enough to put it on lpg if you do the maths and it works out ok for you. if you do high km's and intend to travel a bit out of the way then diesel is the go.

as far as resale goes, they're worth f#ck all second hand anyway and depreciate quicker than suncorp shares so who cares. i read an article on large 4wds (landcruiser/patrol etc) that was saying that from new they can cost up to $500 a week to operate, including depreciation which is a sobering thought indeed.

at the end of the day buy what you're happy with and what will do the job best for your usage, mugs like me have never made money from buying and selling cars so make a good decision and stick with it, good luck mate.

[BenDover]

Ok, here is heath's GU running a duramax turbo diesel with 450bhp runs a 12.2 qauter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=ITLPfMOLLO8

Even he says that these days theres nothing in it between petrol and diesel. He did this truck just to see how far you can go with diesesl for power wise.

It used to be diesel over petrol everytime for hard bush work (mostly for water crossings) and not to mention diesel used to be cheap as chips. But these days with all the electrics on diesels even thats out the window.

It really depends on EACH engine though. So basically it only your prefference and yes petrol is by far cheaper. Knowing what you want it for Brendan, I'd say petrol for you forsure. A nice V6 would be the way to go. Smooth and powerful and cheap.

[reddybayfisher]

When the diesel comes in - I'll take it for a test drive.....but I am leaning more towards a petrol prado .....

Phil - thanks for all you stats and comparisons......to someone that doesn't know that much about 4x4s you have certain taught me a few things reading you posts....Cheers....but I am still the king....LOL

[FNQCairns]

So much in all the above but personally i do not believe diesel tows better than petrol cubic capacity for cubic capacity diesels are slugs in standard form, real trucks use diesel not because it will do a better job towing than the same capacity engine in petrol but for other reasons.

Diesels are bloody hopeless as tow vehicles apples to apples but they do stretch the km per L well.

cheers fnq

[TimiBoy]

Geez that's a big call FNQ! Having chatted with lots of folks about the 200 Series Cruiser, the Diesel towing is the ducks guts for heavy loads. Obviously only one car, and quite different to most others on the market.

But apart from a very small lag, she goes like a bullet - not what you'd expect from a diesel. But it is an intercooled twin turbo V8. You should feel it pull 3 tonnes of boat. WWWWWOW!

Cheers,

Tim

[murf]

Geez that's a big call FNQ! Having chatted with lots of folks about the 200 Series Cruiser, the Diesel towing is the ducks guts for heavy loads. Obviously only one car, and quite different to most others on the market.

But apart from a very small lag, she goes like a bullet - not what you'd expect from a diesel. But it is an intercooled twin turbo V8. You should feel it pull 3 tonnes of boat. WWWWWOW!

Cheers,

Tim

chip it to get rid of the lag

add a couple of lockers (or does it come with them??) and hang on

can I borrow it in May if your not using it :P

cheers Murf

[Lucky_Phill]

See, I knew if enough berley was thrown, the right fish would come along. ;D


well, reddy, I did get THAT pm today.... king hey !!!! we'll see. :-/:P

OK, my fishing is done, back to la la land.... ;D 8-) 8-)


Phill
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[PADDLES]

you've gotta compare apples for apples though timi, ie. compare your twin turbo v8 diesel suicide machine to a twin turbo v8 petrol guzzler. i agree with why you went the cruiser diesel v8 though, it would give most people a woody with the grunt that thing'd have.

[BenDover]

Hey Murf, reply to your pm about if its the 4.2

"YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING RIGHT :)!!!" Its not the 4.2td engine.

The 4.2 wouldnt knock the top off a rice pudding. Its a 6.6litre duramax out of a yank tank running 30 od psi. I had no budget at all with my gu and ask everyone how much would it cost me to get 300bhp out of a 4.2td answer = cannot be done....

I think alot of people are falling for the ora of what a diesel engine is, although it is just an engine. It uses a different fuel source. Its has a longer stroke than its bore (which gives it its low torque) and extremely tight clearances to maximise power. Thats about it. Then you add a turbo which pretty much is what gives it all of its driveable power.

Then everybody compairs them to petrols. Cam the petrol, to up your torque then add a turbo and compair them. The petrol will absolutely kill the turbo diesel. And probably still work out much cheaper in the longrun.

[the lobster]

I think alot of people are falling for the ora of what a diesel engine is, although it is just an engine. It uses a different fuel source. Its has a longer stroke than its bore (which gives it its low torque) and extremely tight clearances to maximise power. Thats about it. Then you add a turbo which pretty much is what gives it all of its driveable power.

Uhh, yeah..... What's your point? I don't believe that diesel engines have any more 'aura' than petrol. But diesel engines do have better low down torque, better reliability and better fuel consumption, amongst other good characteristics, and that's important to many, so that's why they buy them.



Then everybody compairs them to petrols. Cam the petrol, to up your torque then add a turbo and compair them. The petrol will absolutely kill the turbo diesel. And probably still work out much cheaper in the longrun.

Well it's pretty obvious to compare petrol and diesel engines since most 4x4s are offered with either. Sure, your modded petrol will be far more powerful, but we're talking 4x4s here, not formula one race cars. Power is not everything, there is much much more to picking the correct engine for your needs. Ask yourself why more people don't mod up their petrol engines as you have suggested. I'll tell you why, because they'd have to replace the rear seats with extra fuel tanks just to get to the shops and back.

I believe the most important characteristic of a good 4x4 engine is reliability, then torque, then power. You can mod a petrol up to the hilt to give it the torque you want, but that will only reduce it's life and reliability. The fact of the matter is that diesel engines are built to have good torque at low revs, petrol engines aren't. Low down torque is fundamental for any good 4x4 for towing and off-roading. As I said above, sure you can mod up a petrol to improve the torque, but doing so will also reduce it's reliability.

And I still maintain that the running costs of petrol and diesel would end up being very similar.

matt

[BenDover]

I think your missing the point mate, to up your torque you have to up your power in petrols. Off the shelf, like i said before. There is nothing in it between petrol and diesel. Realiability and engine life is the same. Water crossings are the same. When you match up fuel costs and purchase and maitanace the petrols work out cheaper. So each to their own.

[FNQCairns]

I agree there is not much in it today between the two, mainly because of how soft the diesels have evolved to become in an effort to mimic petrol engine performance, behaviour and driveablity as much as possible. pull the standard performance bolt on bits away from the diesel and it will perform everywhere only 2/3 as well as any competing petrol with efi only.

I like my diesel to bits but would have bought petrol to put on gas if I had known what fuel would do and especially where it will probably go in the future.

cheers fnq

[PADDLES]

you're sort of correct lobster but again you've gotta compare apples for apples. a highly modified diesel will hand grenade just as quick as a highly modified petrol engine.

where diesels have it over a petrol is efficiency, that's how they chew less fuel for the same output. another difference between the diesel and petrol motor is it's power characteristic, the diesel will tend to have a very narrow power/torque band at a fairly low rpm, where the petrol one has a better spread of power that usually starts at higher revs.

have you seen the specs on those diesels that are being used in sports car racing, oh my god, those things have RIDICULOUS torque that must just about peel the tyres off the rims but they must have to change gears a lot to keep it in that fat part of the power.

[the lobster]

you're sort of correct lobster but again you've gotta compare apples for apples. a highly modified diesel will hand grenade just as quick as a highly modified petrol engine.

Yes, definitely. But my point was that a factory diesel (turbo or not) offers good low down torque off the shelf, but a factory petrol engine usually needs to be modified to get good low torque out of it, hence dropping the reliability of the petrol engine in order to achieve similar torque performance to the TD.



where diesels have it over a petrol is efficiency, that's how they chew less fuel for the same output. another difference between the diesel and petrol motor is it's power characteristic, the diesel will tend to have a very narrow power/torque band at a fairly low rpm, where the petrol one has a better spread of power that usually starts at higher revs.

have you seen the specs on those diesels that are being used in sports car racing, oh my god, those things have RIDICULOUS torque that must just about peel the tyres off the rims but they must have to change gears a lot to keep it in that fat part of the power.

Definitely agree. That's why I maintain that diesel is better for 4x4ing since you need that low torque. Petrol is nicer for road driving as you've got oodles of power for overtaking etc. But then there's the fuel consumption which makes the petrol less attractive on road.

matt

[the lobster]

I think your missing the point mate, to up your torque you have to up your power in petrols. Off the shelf, like i said before. There is nothing in it between petrol and diesel. Realiability and engine life is the same. Water crossings are the same.

Definitely agree with that. My point was, if you want to get good low torque out of a petrol, you have to mod it, therefore reducing the reliability of the engine. A diesel (turbo or not) comes stock standard with low down torque so reliability is not compromised. Low down torque is obviously desirable for 4x4ing purposes so that's why I rate diesel a better choice for 4x4s. After all they're built for 4x4ing.

For highway cruising stock petrol engines have some pretty good characteristics eg power for overtaking, throttle response etc etc. But their inferior fuel consumption affects their popularity amongst 4x4 buyers. So for 4x4ing purposes and fuel consumption purposes, people would choose a diesel instead.

So, in conclusion, the way I see it, if you're buying a 4x4 to actually do some 4x4ing with, or to do some towing with, diesel is the best choice. If you're buying a 4x4 to drive around on the tarmac with, sure, get a petrol.

Anyway, it's logical to me, obviously people have their own opinions.



When you match up fuel costs and purchase and maitanace the petrols work out cheaper. So each to their own.

Again, I can't see how this is the case. Until I see some reliable data that proves otherwise, I maintain that running costs over the course of a year or 2 would be pretty similar.

No Phil, I can't provide you with any data either except to say that I've owned both petrols and diesels and, even though I don't keep a ledger, the maintenance costs haven't been noticeably different for me.

matt

[GBC]

Lobster, the comparison has been done.
One that comes to mind was 4wd monthly did the 100 series v8 vs the 100 series diesel.
As I recall, it was comprehensive, covering identical running etc., with servicing, buy in, resale etc.
It took the diesel 400000 kms to break even with the petrol.
As for low down torque and offroad ability - I'm with FNQ. I'll take a petrol for heavy towing in sand etc every time. Turbo diesels have lag, and the new ones are way too peaky to be able to drive smooth enough in a tight situation. Manufacturers are caught up with getting the best outputs on paper for sales, and the long flat torque curves are getting harder and harder to find. The new ones are boost on, boost off and nothing in between. But my crd ute revs to 4500 rpm easily and goes really quick around town.:-X

[BenDover]

The 4.5 cruiser turbo diesel V8 has an almost perfect turbo set up and they have found its running about 15 - 20% less fuel it needs for max performance. So with a little tickle there is a nice increase (not by much, but its free power :).) And 10.5 psi. Pretty much its max before engine work is needed.

I read a comparasson between the 4.7 petrol and the 4.5td and there was half a star in it which was the fuel economy.

A lightly shaved head matched with a cam and exhaust will easily come close to the low down torque of the V8 diesel (sorry but its true ive seen the figures) And will not have any issues on reliabilty. Maybe just a bit less engine life MAYBE... A guy I know has a V6 pajero with 300bhp that will eat any diesel with torque.

And as soon as you try and work the diesel you start having over boost problems, heat problems, black smoke (wasted diesel eco), and if not done propperly, lag. Then its uncontrollable boost aswell with over spinning of the tyres on hill climbs and sticky situations. Like GBC said the boost is either in or its out.

So... So far we have established Diesels win in economy and low down torque. Unless your running biodiesel you can scratch that 1 as petrol is cheaper to run and service.

So just low down torque....
I cant find any propper dyno readings so...
Diesel 650nm @1600 rpm
http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-200/specifications/vx-turbo-diesel
Gen 3 (stock) 625 lbs = 847.3nm @ 1600 rpm and thats with a tight untuned engine. Thats the only dyno sheet I have uploaded. Sorry
http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr31/Mark696969_photos/Dynoreading.jpg
The tuned runs started at 1800rpm and is 750lbs = 1016nm of torque.
Ive since got well over 300bhp and insane torque...

You guys can call bullshit if you want. But when I ripped my 4.2td gu engine out and put the petrol V8 in. Driving it the same speeds and acceleration as the turbo diesel it got the same fuel eco.. 500k's per tank.

GONE ARE THE DAYS OF CHEAP DIESEL FUEL AND UNBREAKABLE/RELIABLE ENGINES. IF I WAS DOING A DESERT TRIP OR SOMEWHERE EXTREMELY REMOTE. ID BE TAKING A GOOD OLDEN DAY 1985 DIESEL WITH NO ELECTRICS.

So the torque is not an issue either. Its ok if you just prefer diesels...
But unless your running a powerstroke or duramax your just not going to compete with a petrol in these modern days. You can go much further with petrol mods than you can with diesel mods.

Once again the old diesels where simple, reliable, slow but fuel was cheap. And thats why we loved them.

What Im getting at is your compairing a boosted diesel engine to a standard petrol engine. Supercharge the petrol and game over. And lets face it, who would have a non turbo'd diesel??? All of my mates who are the comp guys are ditching diesels. To run petrol V8"s.

That duramax in the clip spins all 4 wheels through every gear change. :o Has heaps of trouble with grip.

[the lobster]

The 4.5 cruiser turbo diesel V8 has an almost perfect turbo set up and they have found its running about 15 - 20% less fuel it needs for max performance. So with a little tickle there is a nice increase (not by much, but its free power :).) And 10.5 psi. Pretty much its max before engine work is needed.

I read a comparasson between the 4.7 petrol and the 4.5td and there was half a star in it which was the fuel economy.

Can't argue with any of that, but I dont think you could draw the same conclusion with prados (as the original poster was asking about). The 3.0 litre, four cylinder, intercooled, turbo diesel would have to clearly beat the 4.0 litre V6 petrol in economy, wouldn't it?



A lightly shaved head matched with a cam and exhaust will easily come close to the low down torque of the V8 diesel (sorry but its true ive seen the figures) And will not have any issues on reliabilty. Maybe just a bit less engine life MAYBE... A guy I know has a V6 pajero with 300bhp that will eat any diesel with torque.

And as soon as you try and work the diesel you start having over boost problems, heat problems, black smoke (wasted diesel eco), and if not done propperly, lag. Then its uncontrollable boost aswell with over spinning of the tyres on hill climbs and sticky situations. Like GBC said the boost is either in or its out.

I don't doubt any of that, but the point I was trying to make before is that I think you want to avoid modding your engine as much a possible in order to retain your reliability. So you've gotta look at how these engines perform in stock form, I believe.



So... So far we have established Diesels win in economy and low down torque. Unless your running biodiesel you can scratch that 1 as petrol is cheaper to run and service.

Yes, petrol is cheaper to run and service but you'll use less diesel (maybe not much less with a 4.5TTD, but surely the 3.0TD prado engine would use less), so costs would even out to a degree. Not sure how much though.



So just low down torque....
I cant find any propper dyno readings so...
Diesel 650nm @1600 rpm
http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-200/specifications/vx-turbo-diesel
Gen 3 (stock) 625 lbs = 847.3nm @ 1600 rpm and thats with a tight untuned engine.
The tuned runs started at 1800rpm and is 750lbs = 1016nm of torque.
Ive since got well over 300bhp and insane torque...

Hang on, I'm lost. What engine is this? The only Gen 3 I know of is in a Commodore.



You guys can call bullshit if you want. But when I ripped my 4.2td gu engine out and put the petrol V8 in. Driving it the same speeds and acceleration as the turbo diesel it got the same fuel eco.. 500k's per tank.

Ahh, here we go. It *is* a dunnydoor engine. If the next thing your going to tell me is that a General Motors engine will last as long as a toyota diesel, I'm off to watch the pigs flying past outside. I'm sure it does go really well, but I'd hate to be half way up the cape when something goes wrong. I must say the fuel consumption is surprising, but I'll take your word for it.



GONE ARE THE DAYS OF CHEAP DIESEL FUEL AND UNBREAKABLE/RELIABLE ENGINES. IF I WAS DOING A DESERT TRIP OR SOMEWHERE EXTREMELY REMOTE. ID BE TAKING A GOOD OLDEN DAY 1985 DIESEL WITH NO ELECTRICS.

That's why I drive an 80 series with a stock standard 1HZ diesel (ie. non turbo). It's not fast by any stretch of the imagination, but it starts on the first crank every time, tows whatever I want, is great off road, and is unrivalled in reliability IMHO. You can crawl along in low range 1st at like 500rpm and the engine doesnt even struggle. That's where the torque is paramount.



So the torque is not an issue either. Its ok if you just prefer diesels...
But unless your running a powerstroke or duramax your just not going to compete with a petrol in these modern days. You can go much further with petrol mods than you can with diesel mods.

Again, if we're talking racing cars, I completely agree with you, but it's not all about going fast, it's probably more important to be able to go really slow. If I wanted to go fast I'd go out and get an SS commodore or a WRX or something, not a 4x4. And again, I just don't think you want to go down the mod path if you want a solid, reliable 4x4.



What Im getting at is your compairing a boosted diesel engine to a standard petrol engine.

Again, it's the natural comparison to make because that's what the manufacturers offer.



Supercharge the petrol and game over.

Yeah, but why would you bother? Are you saying this would make the comparison fairer or something?



And lets face it, who would have a non turbo'd diesel???

Most of the landcruisers sold new between 1990 and 2006 contained the 1HZ diesel engine. It has no turbo. So the best selling engine in the best selling large 4x4 for the best part of the last 20 years is a non-turbod diesel. So I'd say quite a lot of people would have a non-turbod diesel. Again, we're not talking racing cars here. Most 4x4 owners aren't interested in taking their rig down the 1/4 mile.



All of my mates who are the comp guys are ditching diesels. To run petrol V8"s.

That's great, it really is, but 99.5% of people don't use their 4x4s for comps, and they don't need a supercharged petrol engine to get them to work or to their favourite camping ground, there's just no point.



That duramax in the clip spins all 4 wheels through every gear change. :o Has heaps of trouble with grip.

That's nice, but I have absolutely no reason to want my 4x4 to do that or anything remotely like it.

We could discuss this until the cows come home, but I think the OP get's the point and the pros and cons of each.

matt

[TheRealAndy]

I bought a diesel Navara. Cost me about 1500 more than the petrol. Would not recommend either cause they are a piece of shit, but I dont think the cost of running the diesel is much more than petrol. The diesel drives like a petrol, little slow off the mark but otherwise you would not know. Goes good on the beach and towes my 4.5m poly ok. Not sure if the overall cost is more but its certalnly saving me a few pre tax dollars. Spent more on dealer services than what I would save on either petrol or diesel. I reckon the TD is just as good as the Petrol. Reckon you would be hard pushed finding a difference.

[the lobster]

Lobster, the comparison has been done.
One that comes to mind was 4wd monthly did the 100 series v8 vs the 100 series diesel.
As I recall, it was comprehensive, covering identical running etc., with servicing, buy in, resale etc.
It took the diesel 400000 kms to break even with the petrol.
As for low down torque and offroad ability - I'm with FNQ. I'll take a petrol for heavy towing in sand etc every time. Turbo diesels have lag, and the new ones are way too peaky to be able to drive smooth enough in a tight situation. Manufacturers are caught up with getting the best outputs on paper for sales, and the long flat torque curves are getting harder and harder to find. The new ones are boost on, boost off and nothing in between. But my crd ute revs to 4500 rpm easily and goes really quick around town.:-X

The comparison would have been an interesting read. The question is, would the petrol still be going after 400000kms? ;)

Ok, you can have your petrol in the sand. I hope you've got some jerries! Surely you can't tell me your petrol 4x4 is better for bush 4x4ing though?

I agree the new turbo diesels with all the electronic gear are a bit volatile. I prefer the pre-CRD engines myself.

matt

[TimiBoy]

What Im getting at is your compairing a boosted diesel engine to a standard petrol engine. Supercharge the petrol and game over.

Which is why I have a Verado - by the way, why are HPDI 2 strokes not put in cars? Serious question, I'm interested!

Cheers,

Tim

[PADDLES]

g'day lobstar, the toyota's have never really been known for the best power output, and stock standard they even seem de-tuned, but they will go for an awful long time if looked after. 400000k's should be easy for it.

timi, i think not putting a 2s back in a car would be more related to the market accepting them. even the rotary was not widely accepted and it is a seriously good design.

[BenDover]

Well unfortunately my patrol ute only came out in diesel. So it had to get replaced. Toyota is fast as, compaired to nissan diesels. And I wasnt going to replace it with the 4.5 or the 4.8 nissan engine. Thus this is what i have now.

TheRealAndy, Yeah there is nothing between the 2 in the navara petrol/diesel but $15 is a hell of alot more money.

the lobster, we got off the subject a bit. And got down to actually Petrol vs Diesel. If you got a petrol engine with the same bore and stroke as your naturally asp 4.2 (virtually the same engine). Do you still think your diesel would have more torque and power taking into acount the petrol is running much less compression?

Now turbo both of them and add common rail/fuel injection...
Yes the diesel will outlast the petrol due to self lubeing and way more servicing and maintanace. But wont even be in the same ballpark as the petrol.

You say that diesels are built for tuffness and offroad. I used to think that growing up.. Now I think like someone else here said.. They are good for truck drivers with 20 gears that tow 20 tonnes. Thats where your low down torque comes into its own.

But when you see a diesel cross a river (a non electric 1) and take a gulp and stop dead in the water. Then a petrol goes in and takes a gulp while pulling it out. Yet the petrol is still going but with a slight miss in it and the diesel is ceased instantly. You tell me which 1 is tougher?
= $8500 diesel rebuild
$3000 petrol rebuild

And if you tell me you can find a difference in torque and power in the bush in low range 1st gear. Then im off to watch the pigs fly.

Paddles - I know of a petrol hilux with 420 000k's on it and its still going. There is something seriously wrong in the top end but it just wont stop going.

There is an ora and stigma about diesels that people are willing to pay all the extra for... But nobody can really say why?
Accept the people who are taken in by marketing and that they are cheaper on fuel.

I used to have some ding dong fights with my mates who are diesel heads. (dont get me wrong I LOVE the new cruiser 4.5td engines and would drive 1 myself). But when im sitting in his 4.2td cruiser towing a trailer full of camping gear and a petrol model 4.5 petrol cruiser towing about the same fly's past him on the highway or the sand and he gets cut and says "Yeah.. Well this is a diesel buddy!" I just have to smile and look away.

[TheRealAndy]

Bendover the only reason I got the diesel was because I intend traveling north west Queensland. I have heard that some towns only have diesel and I reckon if I come unstuck I have more chance of buying some diesel of a farmer than petrol.

Once upon a time you also bought a diesel because they were harder to drown (read no spark plugs etc., not sucking in water!), but now with all the electronics it makes no difference.

[the lobster]

I'll say it again, it's not all about power and going fast. If you want that out of your 4x4, and obviously you do, then fine, enjoy your petrol V8. But for me and many others, the most important thing is reliability. If you're suggesting that petrol is just as reliable (or more reliable, as it sounds) I just don't buy it. Tell me why every 4x4 that works in tough conditions is a diesel? On cattle stations out west, in mines etc. Sit on a road on the cape or at a remote roadhouse out west and tell me how many petrols go past as opposed to diesels, there won't be many petrols. You can't tell me all these people are awestruck by some 'diesel aura'. People are smarter than you give them credit for.

Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree about torque. From my experience you can definitely crawl more slowly with a diesel than a petrol.

matt

[barra_cuda81]

This thread will just keep going in circles. My two bobs worth is that in this economic situation buy what you can afford to initially outlay or pay off, petrol and servicing costs and swallow the the cost of depreciation every day you own your vehicle. I bought a 3L turbo diesel Navara a few years back hoping for numerous off-road adventures. Now it is the daily driver and baby car, tows the boat down to the boat ramp every weekend and gets used offroad maybe 4 times a year. I do however love the 700 highway cruising kms per 75L and the fact that it beat my mates 4.2TD Cruiser ute in a sand-blow hill climb!!!!!!

[TheRealAndy]

I'll say it again, it's not all about power and going fast. If you want that out of your 4x4, and obviously you do, then fine, enjoy your petrol V8. But for me and many others, the most important thing is reliability. If you're suggesting that petrol is just as reliable (or more reliable, as it sounds) I just don't buy it. Tell me why every 4x4 that works in tough conditions is a diesel? On cattle stations out west, in mines etc. Sit on a road on the cape or at a remote roadhouse out west and tell me how many petrols go past as opposed to diesels, there won't be many petrols. You can't tell me all these people are awestruck by some 'diesel aura'. People are smarter than you give them credit for.

Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree about torque. From my experience you can definitely crawl more slowly with a diesel than a petrol.

matt

Why buy a petrol when all your other gear is diesel. Got nothing to do with petrol being better, its all about your combine harverster using diesel.

[PADDLES]

absolutely andy, diesel is the standard industrial fuel and is freely available in remote areas (this is what jacks it's price up when industrial demand is high, like over the last few years).

yeah ben, i bought a 4x4 petrol hilux brand new in 1992 and it was still on it's original clutch when i sold it to a young bloke in caboolture over 400000k's later in late 2005. replaced the timing chain at 320000k's. best car i could have ever owned, that thing cost me f#ck all for 13 years and let me buy things like boats and houses because i didn't have to spend money on cars. now i know for a fact that anyone who wants to compare petrol to diesel only needs to drive a hilux 2.8 diesel and then drive a 2.4 petrol to see the difference (these were the powerplants available at the time and they were both similar in configuration ie. 2 valve overhead cam, 4 stroke). needless to say i bought the petrol and hence my previous comment about never buying a 4cyl diesel, they're way too frustrating.

[BenDover]

Thats right Andy, Farms and out west use diesel because most of their industrial machinery run on diesel and it is far more stable to store in their holding tanks than petrol. (eg.. You can throw a match into it and it will go out and not combust.) Look at bio diesel (vegetable oil is 1) The only risk you run on a farm with that stuff is a plague of mice.

Lobster, its NOT ALL ABOUT POWER... Im just making the point that a petrol can easily make the same torque at the same low revs. Top end power is just a bi product of achieving high torque down low for petrols. If the diesel makes a max of 300nm at 1600rpm and so does the petrol WITH OUT AFFECTING RELIABILTY. Then whats the difference.
(how can a nice long duration lobed cam grind, exhaust and a few other internal bits make it unreliable?)
The only difference is that when the diesel runs out of puff the petrol keeps climbing from the same 300nm at 1600rpm to 600nm or so at 5000rpm.

Agree to dissagree...

My mate runs trips upto the cape and into the desert. Petrol and diesel makes no difference. He's going again in may ill ask him how many petrols

[BenDover]

Here's something someone else showed me in another forum. Read the part where is says it gets the SAME fuel economy as the 4.2td he pulled out of it.

Nice rig... Ill be selling mine soon.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1998-nissan-gu-patrol-6lt-LS2-Chev-Engine_W0QQitemZ280325374710QQihZ018QQcategoryZ352 27QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[TheRealAndy]

Just for the record, my aunt and uncle one one of the larger cattle stations in australia and they have a heap 4wd's for herding cattle. Not diesel, but all petrol suzuki's.. Then again, they also have a plane, so multiple fuel types for them is not an issue.

[Malcolm W]

I found a couple of my old 4x4 magazines with fairly comprehensive comparisons.
September 2008 4x4 compared the following FWDs Petrol v diesel. Lancruiser 200 series V8s, Prado V6-TD and Navara V6-TD for,
Initial cost and Resale after 3 years. Petrol cruiser $1274 infront. Navara petrol $386 infront and Diesel prado $788 infront.

Cost per year in fuel(25000kl diesel 20c dearer) PradoDiesel $1362 infront. Navara diesel $1133 infront. Lancruiser diesel $1498 infront

loan cost over 3 years(same interest) Diesels all cost more PA- Prado $430, Navara $960 and cruiser $4300.
Servicing costs All 10000 ks and the same costs apart from the navara $100 PA dearer.
This was for costs only and apart from the cruisers hefty $10000 premium for the diesel, costs appear very similar if averaged out. There were pros and cons for both sides and in the case of the Navara and Prado diesel they were pitted against bigger motors. The testers still seem to favour the petrol on road(quieter smoother and more power at higher revs) and diesel for towing and off road.

The second article I found was From Overlander August 2007, Prado diesel V Prado petrol. This compared a 3l 4 cylinder (127 kw @ 3400 rpm & 410 nm torque @ 1600 rpm) turbo diesel and a 4l V6 (179 kw @5200 & 376 nm @ 3800 rpm) petrol
The service and initial costs were almost identical and the price per litre at the time was almost identical.
The diesel used 45.8% less fuel and the side by side comparison for power was-
Diesel 3l............................. Petrol 4l
@ 1500 rpm 65 KW............ 48 KW
@2000 rpm 84 KW .............70 KW
@2500 rpm 106 KW ...........90 KW
@3000 rpm 122 KW ...........114 KW
@3500 rpm 126 KW........... 128 KW from here on its all up hill for the petrol and even or downhill for the diesel.

The diesel produces all of its torque at 1600 + so looking at these figures if You want something to tow or 4x4 with and dont rev out much higher than 3500 rpm the diesel is the choice and if the 2 fuels remain as close in price as they are now the diesel prado is the most economical to own.
The 2 magazines had totaly different opinions one with nothing in just what you want or prefer and the other clearly in favour of the diesel. A lot is based though on what price diesel will be in the future?

[Spaniard_King]

I ended up with the V8 Cruiser Petrol, couldn't trust the missus to find the diesel bowser::)

IMO unless your doing sh!t loads of klm 30K plus a year the petrol is the go.

[BenDover]

Spaniar_king - That would be the 1 with the line up for it as usually servo's only have the 1 diesel pump.

[Spaniard_King]

Spaniar_king - That would be the 1 with the line up for it as usually servo's only have the 1 diesel pump.

And you think this would be enough for the average woman to notice the difference:o

[TimiBoy]

I ended up with the V8 Cruiser Petrol, couldn't trust the missus to find the diesel bowser::)

IMO unless your doing sh!t loads of klm 30K plus a year the petrol is the go.

You lucky, lucky man. My wife refuses to fill the Cruiser. It's not her job, you see...

When I did the maths on the payback for the 200 series, 200,000 km a year was required for the diesel to pay back in four years. That was at $1.70 though. As I said before though, I just WANTED the diesel!

Cheers,

Tim

[Mr__Bean]

Later in the year I am coming up towards changeover time again.

This is the second turbo diesel landcruiser I have had and I have previously changed them over at three years old, around 100,000km.

Time now to look at the V8 diesel.

Having enjoyed younger times with vehicles that have had petrol V8's with a beautiful note to them I am left to wonder if a decent note can be extracted from a diesel V8.

Anybody know?

- Darren

[TimiBoy]

Later in the year I am coming up towards changeover time again.

This is the second turbo diesel landcruiser I have had and I have previously changed them over at three years old, around 100,000km.

Time now to look at the V8 diesel.

Having enjoyed younger times with vehicles that have had petrol V8's with a beautiful note to them I am left to wonder if a decent note can be extracted from a diesel V8.

Anybody know?

- Darren

Well mine growls when I floor it, but it's a stately growl. I know Catfishkid's workshop have done some work on a 200 Diesel - have a chat with him, he may know.

Cheers,

Tim

[GBC]

Yep Bean,

There's A guy in a ute with a custom exhaust that works near me - nice note to it.

Paddles - I see now where you get your low down torque comments - the 1hz was the king of not stalling - very honest.

I think your thoughts about the pertol donks getting to 400 000 kms were worrying though. The old 1fz-fe 4.5l is proving to be a very long lived petrol donk indeed, with the v8 looking the same. My old (93 mod 80 series) 1fz-fe is almost at the 400 mark and still compressions up to within tolerance.

I'd like a dollar for every turbo diesel 80 series that didn't get to 400 before needing a new heart.......

If a 1hz doesn't get those miles, then that's just abuse and the owner should be shot.;)

[PADDLES]

yeah, mr bean, i always reckoned that those monster ford ambulances with the turbo diesel v8's sounded rather tuff, so yes you can make them sound good.

[TheRealAndy]

Yep Bean,

There's A guy in a ute with a custom exhaust that works near me - nice note to it.

Paddles - I see now where you get your low down torque comments - the 1hz was the king of not stalling - very honest.

I think your thoughts about the pertol donks getting to 400 000 kms were worrying though. The old 1fz-fe 4.5l is proving to be a very long lived petrol donk indeed, with the v8 looking the same. My old (93 mod 80 series) 1fz-fe is almost at the 400 mark and still compressions up to within tolerance.

I'd like a dollar for every turbo diesel 80 series that didn't get to 400 before needing a new heart.......

If a 1hz doesn't get those miles, then that's just abuse and the owner should be shot.;)

A mate of mine had a petrol taxi never rebuilt done over 1000000kms. Had done 3 gearboxes from memory though. The car was totally rooted, but the engine kept going.

Also seen many a taxi up around the 800000km mark.

[BenDover]

GBC - That 4.5 litre 1fz-fe engine is what I used to run in my 75 comp cruiser. TUFF AS NUTS THAT ENGINE. I tried soooo hard to kill it because I wanted to rebuild it bigger and better. Even doing a run with hardly any oil (my sump was damaged and the oil light didnt come on). Just would not lay down.
Then they discontinued it due to everyone wanting the turbo diesel over it.... IDIOTS..... Drinks alot but extremely tuff and hassle free. Should be good to around 500-550

[hercules]

I've had 2 petrol and 2 diesel utes in the last 11 years , all v8s and all imported. The first 2 were ford f150 with a 351 and chev 2500 with a 350 . Because i tow a lot the petrols were struggling especially uphill yet empty they were fine and probably towing small weight like 2 tonne fine as well. Yes they were thirsty but to upgrade just because of a bit of economy is like getting a new 4 stroke over the 2 and only doing 20 hrs ayear .
The next was a gmc with the 6.5 turbo diesel and it towed better and one would expect with a bigger donc . Better on fuel but there was the duramax 6.6 coming out in about 2000 so an upgrade was a must;D . I tossed up getting the 8.1 petrol or the 6.6 duramax. both had similar torque with the petrol a few more horses . As dover showed they were doing some impressive stuff with the duramax and mostly diesels were available (i was buying secondhand). The other factor was reselling an 8.1 petrol would freak most people out as there is a stigma surrounding economy on petrol v8s and maybe rightly so .
Its been 4 years since owning the 03 gmc and its cost me a bit ,new injectors $6 k and the usual wear and tear . I do about 50000 km a year and tow 4tonne and hope i made the right choice .

Its really op to the individuals preferance rather than just straight costs. Towing small loads, i'd be happy with either petrol or diesel . I think in my case the diesel is made for it . I'm sure eveyone could argue plusses and minusses allday just buy big enough to do the job at hand (hard to know what that is sometimes without owning some beforehand::) ) or you'll be upgrading like me every few years
Craig

[dec0guy]

Here's a few comparisons

Navara D40 Dual cab Petrol 4.0 V6 198kW/385Nm RRP $45,330 13.6L/100km
Navara D40 Dual cab Diesel 2.5TD 126kW/403Nm RRP $47,160 9.0L/100km

Patrol ST Petrol 4.8 6cyl 185kW/420Nm 5sp auto RRP $58,990 17.2L/100km
Patrol ST diesel 3.0TD 4cyl 118kW/354Nm 4sp auto RRP $56,990 10.9L/100km

Landcruiser GXL Petrol 4.7 V8 202kW/410Nm 5sp auto RRP $73,990 14.5L/100km
Landcruiser GXL diesel 4.5TD V8 195kW/650Nm RRP $83,990 10.3L/100km

Prado GXL Petrol 4.0 V6 179kW/376Nm 6 sp manual RRP $55,540 13.6L/100km
Prado GXL diesel 3.0TD 4cyl 127kW/410Nm RRP $58,040 9.2L/100km

gf is watching so you think you can dance, so had some time to kill!

[Spaniard_King]

Geez,

I recon they must be a best case scenario for the v8 cruiser :P

when I chuck me boat on the back she drinks like close to 30L/100klm

around town 17-18L/100klm :(

[FNQCairns]

The 4wd makers need to get their head out of their orifice and offer inline engine twin turbo (one for low rpm and one for higher rpm) petrol engines, all figures would end up comparable or better than the diesels, the engine would be small, light and reliable say a 1.6 to 2.5L to equal the ability of any diesel engine out there except the V8s.

They had to do something to make the diesels work well enough for the present day, they could do that to for the petrol 4wds too I suspect.

I think BMW already does make one but not in a 4wd.

4wds have got that soft I think it could be a very real option.

cheers fnq

[GBC]

There's a can of worms in itself FNQ!

I agree that virtually nothing has been done to forward the case of the petrol motor in relation to the amount that has been spent on diesels - but it will come.

I've had a twin sequential turbo petrol (boxer not inline) since 2003 - she's got a personality of her own which grows on you. Very difficult to get the same reaction out of a sequential tt every time though.

One thing I do know is if I go playing with the v8's, it'll drink like a v8. Cruising she'll get 10l/100 every day though.

[dec0guy]

You need one of these

http://www.emma-maersk.com/engine/Wartsila_Sulzer_RTA96-C.htm

[TimiBoy]

Geez,

I recon they must be a best case scenario for the v8 cruiser :P

when I chuck me boat on the back she drinks like close to 30L/100klm

around town 17-18L/100klm :(

That's for petrol yeah? On the 200? I have the diesel, I get about 12.5 around town, and 19.5 towing over 3 tonnes.

Cheers,

tim

[hercules]

I think i might win a prize for the thirstiest diesel . My GMC gets 22litres per 100km towing 4 tonne (8 tonne all up) and 14 - 15litres per 100km empty .
Hope it makes some people happy with their rigs economy (except maybe Garry ;D Although its only 10 minutes to the ramp isn't it gazza;) )

Craig

[BenDover]

The new fad Herculies is the 6.6 litre duramax with compounding turbo's. BIG horse power but any hick up and kablewi...

[hercules]

Happy enough just with a chip , can't afford kablewi , although you can never have too much horsepower !!! can you??;D
Craig

[BenDover]

They are up around the 1000hp mark. But it serious is unusable power in most cases. Bogs down then way too much power. This is about the best ive seen so far.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR-QT8-JAF0&feature=related

[hercules]

Those vids crack me up . The ultimate bogun . Love the black smoke on the take off. Yanks and their horsepower;D
Craig

[BenDover]

Hey, There's nothing bogan about getting the most out of your truck and exploring new ways to make/increase your horsepower. Its extremely cheap to do in the us. Thats why everyone including us watch what they are doing. Can see exactly what they have done, and the end result until you find what you are looking for.

They have pre programed computer tunes you simply download from their web site and install into your truck for instant gains. But yeah, they love their black smoke...

[Falz87]

When i was looking at buyin a truck, i wanted to go diesel. but I bought a Petrol Hilux and i think i made the right choice. Yeah Diesel will deliver more torque, but as far as fuel economy goes. think of this, and i believe it to be true. Diesel motors / Generators will run all day full load with little fuel consumption, Why? Because theyre running at very low revs,, but you run a diesel at the same revs as that of a petrol, your consumption will be very similar.
Maintanence must be religious for a diesel, so there's a large cost. and if fuel prices go back the way they were, the consumption vs. cost will basically cancel out..

Weigh up the situation., work out how long you'll look at keeping it and what its main use will be and go from there.

Oh if you go diesel, try for one with a turbo.