that'a not pollution, THIS IS [Archive] - Ausfish fishing Australia, Australian Angling Forums

Jeremy

11-03-2009, 08:15 AM

Ammonium nitrate containers lost overboard in rough seas at Moreton Bay

A CARGO ship has lost 32 containers of ammonium nitrate overboard in Queensland's Moreton Bay.
The ship was travelling in rough seas near Point Lookout (http://search.news.com.au/search//0/?us=ndmnews&sid=29277&as=news&ac=ninews2&q=Point Lookout)at Stradbroke Island, while on its way to Newcastle, when the spill happened about 5am (AEST).
Thirty-two containers of ammonium nitrate were lost overboard and an additional three tonnes of the chemical spilt on the deck.
Ambulance and fire crews were waiting for the ship at the Port of Brisbane. It was expected to arrive about 11am.
A police spokesman said water police were on standby if required.
A severe weather warning remains in place between the north tip of Fraser Island (http://search.news.com.au/search//0/?us=ndmnews&sid=29277&as=news&ac=ninews2&q=Fraser Island)and Coolangatta due to tropical cyclone Hamish.
The Bureau of Meteorology said a large high pressure system over the western Tasman Sea (http://search.news.com.au/search//0/?us=ndmnews&sid=29277&as=news&ac=ninews2&q=Tasman Sea)in combination with Hamish was producing strong to gale force winds and large waves about the southeast Queensland coast.
Early this morning the category three cyclone was about 275km east of Sandy Cape.
The cyclone is expected to continue to weaken and turn to the northwest later today.

Jeremy

11-03-2009, 08:16 AM

I am speechless. God help us is all I can manage at the moment.

Jeremy

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 08:21 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate

Jeremy

11-03-2009, 08:26 AM

From Wikpedia: "The chemical compound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound) ammonium nitrate, the nitrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrate) of ammonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia) with the chemical formula N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen)H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen)4N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen)O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen)3, is a white powder at room temperature and standard pressure. It is commonly used in agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture) as a high-nitrogen fertilizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer), and it has also been used as an oxidizing agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_agent) in explosives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive), including improvised explosive devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device)."

Seems serious enough to me. Excess nutrient can cause algal bloom etc, turbidity.

Jeremy

bronsonwinston

11-03-2009, 08:27 AM

Can that amount be harmfull diluted in the ocean and will it result in fish kills? I know they use small amounts in aquariums.

baitwaster

11-03-2009, 08:29 AM

One news report has already had an "expert" say that Ammonium Nitrate is fairly benign. WTF is 32 containers of Ammonium Nitrate benign compared to? perhaps it is benign compared to a nuclear bomb :-[

Wait for the algal bloom - coming to a fishing spot near you.

FNQCairns

11-03-2009, 08:37 AM

What constitutes a container of this chemical, where is the current heading out there? Where are the containers now...on the bottom?

Only a scary scenario if inside MB with it's limited ability to flush/dilute relative to the ocean proper, still too much not said to form an understanding.

cheers fnq

coucho

11-03-2009, 08:38 AM

On its own ammonium nitrate is not that harmfull and i doubt that even 32 containers worth would cause an algae bloom in the ocean especially seein as the sea was a rough enough to cause the spill. It should quickly disperse due to the turbulence of the water. At least thats what I would be hoping for.

Marlin_Mike

11-03-2009, 08:42 AM

A CARGO ship has lost 32 containers of ammonium nitrate overboard in Queensland's Moreton Bay.
The ship was travelling in rough seas near Point Lookout (http://search.news.com.au/search//0/?us=ndmnews&sid=29277&as=news&ac=ninews2&q=Point Lookout)at Stradbroke Island, while on its way to Newcastle, when the spill happened about 5am (AEST).

Jeremy,

It says it was en route to Newcastle, and travelling in rough seas near Point Lookout, which indicates it was off shore. If that's the case, was the material lost off shore, or was the ship coming into Brisbane/Moreton Bay to sit out the rough weather before proceeding to Newcastle and lost the material then? If so, then it didnt lose it near Point Lookout, it lost it in the bay. If it wasnt coming into the bay, and was steaming south near Point Lookout, then one can only summise the containers were lost off shore, and not in Moreton bay. the report doesnt make sense to me. Off shore or the bay? The way i read the report it was off shore when it lost the containers. Either way, ooopppssss gotta hurt the water

Mike

banksmister

11-03-2009, 08:54 AM

Robyn Ironside
March 11, 2009 06:27am
8am UPDATE: CHEMICAL experts have warned the spill of 32 containers of ammonium nitrate into Moreton Bay could "hammer the environment".
The Pacific Adventure , travelling from Newcastle, lost the containers in heavy seas, off Point Lookout on North Stradbroke Island.
Each of the containers is believed to hold up to 20,000 tonnes of ammonium nitrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate), a toxic white powder used as fertiliser and in explosives.
It was the main ingredient in the Bali bombings in 2002 and the Oklahoma City bombing in 1985.
Another 3000 tonnes is believed to have spilled on board the ship which is due into the Port of Brisbane about 11am.
Director of Chemistry at the University of Newcastle, Dr Ian van Altena said there was "no risk of an explosion" from the spill.
"Not a chance. You need to mix ammonium nitrate with proportionate amounts of diesel for that," he said.
However the risk of an environmental disaster was fairly high.
"It has the potential to cause some drastic changes to the ecology," Dr van Altena said.
"We all know about the problems in the Great Barrier Reef caused by fertiliser washing off the canefields."
He said the chemical could promote the growth of algae and seaweeds and seriously impact the important seagrasses in the bay.
"It all depends on the current flows and how quickly it disperses. Certainly I would say you'd want to whip that back out of the ocean as quickly as possible, particularly if it's in a sensitive and relatively shallow area."
The Brisbane Harbour master, Martime Safety Queensland and the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service's Hazmat team are investigating the spill.
More details soon.
Did you see the incident? Send us your pics or YouTube link and we'll upload your video by email or by MMS to 0428 258 117.

Share this article What is this? (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html#)

function GetThis(T, C, U, L) { var targetUrl = 'http://www.myspace.com/Modules/PostTo/Pages/?' + 't=' + encodeURIComponent(T) + '&c=' + encodeURIComponent(C) + '&u=' + encodeURIComponent(U) + '&l=' + L; window.open(targetUrl); } Add to MySpace (http://javascript:GetThis('Cargo ship spills 32 containers of ammonium nitrate in Moreton Bay | The Courier-Mail', ' 8am UPDATE: CHEMICAL experts have warned the spill of 32 containers of ammonium nitrate into Moreton Bay could &quo;hammer the environment&quo;. The Pacific Adventure , travelling from Newcastle, lost the containers in heavy seas, off Point Lookout on North Stradbroke Island. Each of the containers is believed to hold up to 20,000 tonnes of <a href=&quo;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate&quo;>ammonium nitrate</a>, a toxic white powder used as fertiliser and in explosives.It was the main ingredient in the Bali... Click Headline for Full Story', 'http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html', 1))
Digg it (http://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html&title=Cargo ship spills 32 containers of ammonium nitrate in Moreton Bay | The Courier-Mail)
Post to del.icio.us (http://del.icio.us/post?url=http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html&title=Cargo ship spills 32 containers of ammonium nitrate in Moreton Bay | The Courier-Mail)
Post to Newsvine (http://www.newsvine.com/_wine/save?popoff=0&u=http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html&h=Cargo ship spills 32 containers of ammonium nitrate in Moreton Bay | The Courier-Mail)
Post to Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/share.php?u='http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html')
Add to kwoff (http://javascript:q='http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html';void(open('http://www.kwoff.com/submit.php?url='+escape(q),'','resizable,location, menubar,toolbar,scrollbars,status'));)
Stumble Upon (http://www.stumbleupon.com/submit?url=http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html&title=Cargo ship spills 32 containers of ammonium nitrate in Moreton Bay | The Courier-Mail)http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/images/facebook_promo_storyfoot.gif (http://facebook.couriermail.com.au/)

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6524564,00.jpg The Pacific Adventurer, the vessel from which the ammonium nitrate containers were lost in Moreton Bay.

ndm.kit.halfpage();
ndm.kit.halfpage();
ndm.kit.halfpage();

Also in News

Accident: Fears for bay after spill (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170249-952,00.html)
Sea rescue: 25 hours in savage seas (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25169129-952,00.html)
Citigroup upbeat: Wall Street's explosive surge (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170261-5003402,00.html)
Shayne Sutton: Council in breastfeeding stoush (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25168815-952,00.html)
Cyclone watch: Hamish weakens, may turn north (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25170257-952,00.html)
Player charged: Police move on Brett Stewart (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25169451-952,00.html)
In a state: Health staff housing unfixed (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25168461-952,00.html)
Physical contact: Lollypop man's high five ban (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25168239-952,00.html)
Car chase: Police stood down over shots (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25167775-952,00.html)
Sexual assault: Manly star Brett Stewart charged (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25166020-952,00.html)
Sydney accident: Painter fell without harness (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25166294-952,00.html)
$4m overseas: Swiss link to missing tax cash (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25166791-952,00.html)
Machine error: Crash pilot 'did all he could' (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25166569-952,00.html)
Cyclone Hamish: Miracle man's cyclone escape (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25163620-952,00.html)
Newspoll: Voters turn away from Bligh (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25164935-952,00.html)

Marlin_Mike

11-03-2009, 08:59 AM

Woops, has someone in the media made a typo?????//

32 containers cantaining 20,000 tonnes each? Total 640,000 tonnes? A 20ft container is usuallygood for 20 or 22 tonnes, not 20,000 tonnes.

I doubt the ship would carry anywhere near that weight.

Maybe the media should verify the information. And again, it says OFF Point Lookout. Well to me that is not IN Moreton Bay.

Mike

FNQCairns

11-03-2009, 09:05 AM

Also what constitutes a container of this chemical ie how is the chemical packaged inside? I seriously suspect they are not going to chance air/water tightness to the container only....

The zealots will have a field day with this.

cheers fnq

disorderly

11-03-2009, 09:05 AM

Why are they sending it into Brisbane if the decks are covered in it...??

Wouldnt it be better to clean it off out in open water...???

The-easyrider

11-03-2009, 09:07 AM

Good thing we have green zones to stop the nasty fishermen damaging the enviroment

murf

11-03-2009, 09:16 AM

Good thing we have green zones to stop the nasty fishermen damaging the enviroment

there will be some very green green zones now :o

coucho

11-03-2009, 09:20 AM

there will be some very green green zones now :o

all that extra algae will give the prawns more to eat hence more prawns. All the extra prawns will give the fish more to eat hence more fish and no need for green zones after all!!

Chris Ryan

11-03-2009, 09:37 AM

Mike - it was off Moreton to us, but to the EPA it is istill in Moreton.........otherwise they have no reason to close off the areas on the Eastern side of Moreton or Stradbroke Islands.

finding_time

11-03-2009, 10:14 AM

Well at least the current is roaring out there atm! around 3 knots so it will be on Murf's door step with in a day!! I wouldn't panic about it though, it will leach out over time and be diluted ! depending on the depth the epa may request a recovery but if it's over 55m ( which it probable is) it will stay where it is!

Ian

murf

11-03-2009, 10:25 AM

TimiBoy

11-03-2009, 10:35 AM

Anyone get the gps mark where they fell? I hear there's some nice structure around there...

19.2 tonnes is the maximum allowable in a container, from memory. 20,000 tonnes? For God's sake, that means the ship could only carry about 5 before it was overloaded. Let alone where you'll get a crane to lift one.
BIT FUNNY REALLY!

Anna planned it, in reality. It's one of the arti's she's been rabbiting on about.

In fact this Robyn Ironside (or was that Ironbox?) is an out and out idiot. She has not checked her facts, and in the true Greenie spirit she has overstated the facts by a factor of ONE THOUSAND!!!!
Cheers,

Tim

oldboot

11-03-2009, 10:48 AM

OK here are some figures.

A 40 foot container has an maximum total weight of about 40 tonnes, the container its self may weight up to 4 tonnes.

so it looks at being arround 1200 tonnes all up.

Of course it will depend on how it is packaged.....it could be individual bags like cement bags, sacks like chook feed or any one of a variety of bulk bags.

I think there has been some problems with handling the units of measure.

The on board spill is most likly to be 300 or 3000 KG.

If there has been a bulk bag split that would result in a spill of 3000Kg if the whole split bag is counted.

Now likley impacts

the stuff on the deck has almost certianly got wet and will have turned into lumps or a huge crusty mass........what is beeing washed over the side will probaly not cause too much of a problem and should disipate........the ships deck will probaly need a repaint.

You would have ti use huge amounts of water to wash this stuff over the side and I don't think salt water would be doing a real good job........it would be like washing up a pan after making toffee.

They will be pick and shoveling this off the ship.

In my opinion as for the containers that went over the side..........the best hope is that they went over in deep water and sank to the bottom.....floating containers are a real problem.

the contents will then disolve over a period of time and leach out... and hopefully disperse.........will it have a significant environmental impact.... real good question.

Are they going to salvage the containers.......I doubt it very much.

Consider if you did bring these boxes up......first you would have to find them.......I recon they will be spread about a bit.......then you have to lift 40 tonnes plus out of deep water..... and .....they would be pissing out contaminated water............. they would then have to be braught thru the bay.......how do you carry a 40 tonne container and a large quantity of disolved firtiliser.......and 32 of them.

It would be well worth knowing where they droped because I recon they will be realy rich reefs after it all settles down.
And the containers will rust realy fast with that amount of nitrate in them.

A serious incident certainly.... but if it was in open water... not an environmental catastrophy...............if it was in the bay on the other hand..........Holy snappin' lobster dropings it would be a real problem.

cheers

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 11:04 AM

Latest update;

Container ship holed, limping into Brisbane

Posted 34 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r347676_1589311.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r347676_1589316.jpg) Huge ocean swells from Cyclone Hamish are still making it difficult for the ship to enter the port. (User submitted: Brad Jeffers)

Map: Point Lookout 4183 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-27.4302&long=153.5377&caption=Point%20Lookout%204183)
Related Story: Tonnes of ammonium nitrate lost into sea off SE Qld (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/11/2512673.htm)
Related Story: Cyclone Hamish downgraded to category 2 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/11/2512915.htm)
Related Story: Searchers hopeful missing fishermen on life raft (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/11/2512786.htm)
Related Link: ABC special coverage: Cyclone Hamish (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/qldfloods/)
Related Link: Photo Gallery: Tropical Cyclone Hamish rages off Qld's coast (http://www.abc.net.au/news/photos/2009/03/09/2510923.htm)
Related Link: Cyclone Hamish tracking map off Qld coast (http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/cyclone-hamish/default.htm)
Related Link: Cyclone Hamish on Twitter (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23cyclonehamish)
A ship that lost 32 containers of ammonium nitrate overboard in rough seas off south east Queensland early this morning is leaking fuel as it limps into harbour off Brisbane.
The 180-metre container ship Pacific Adventure was carrying 60 containers of the potentially dangerous chemical from Newcastle in New South Wales to Brisbane.
But 32 six-metre-long containers fell overboard off Stradbroke Island at about 5:00am AEST.
Three tonnes of the chemical was also spilt on the ship's deck.
Captain John Watkinson from Maritime Safety Queensland says a container damaged the ship.
"It pierced the hull right at the level where there was a fuel tank, so the ship has lost a little bit of heavy fuel oil," he said.
The ship is being guided to a secure anchorage in Moreton Bay for inspection.
A helicopter crew is trying to find the lost shipping containers.
Tropical Cyclone Hamish off southern Queensland, which has whipped up the rough seas, has now been downgraded to category 2.

TimiBoy

11-03-2009, 11:08 AM

There you go, 20 footers, 19.2 tonnes max payload each. Not, I repeat, NOT, 20,000 tonnes...

Cheers,

Tim

bungie

11-03-2009, 11:14 AM

32 containers x 20 tonnes each = 640 tonnes of ammonium nitrate Farrwk !!!!!!!

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 11:47 AM

The ammonium nitrate contents is maybe the smallest issue!?

Now revised to 31, but still there are now possibly 31 floating? 20 tonne speed humps out there it appears!!.:o:o:-X One has already pierced the carrier ship itself and it is leaking fuel oil.

PADDLES

11-03-2009, 12:00 PM

outsider's nailed it in one, that is what we should really be worried about. they float just below the surface and will kill your boat as quick as you can hit them. hopefully all will be accounted for and salvaged or sunk. they'd probably make good artificial reefs for a little while.

mirage

11-03-2009, 12:46 PM

Would a container with 20,000kg of, in effect, gravel in it float?

The-easyrider

11-03-2009, 01:17 PM

Just heard on the news that they lost 5 ton of fuel causeing a 20 kl long oil slick no chance of controling that in these conditions :(

dogsbody

11-03-2009, 01:25 PM

Does this mean more green zones are going to SPROUT up? Or is this the way the EPA intends to get some of the doomed seagrass back.

Dave

Spaniard_King

11-03-2009, 01:37 PM

How can we find ou if these containers floated away or sunk.. listen for notices to mariners ya recon??

sharkymark2

11-03-2009, 01:50 PM

Any news from the EPA???????? :). Or are they strangely silent. Pretty easy to push a few fisherman around surely a few containers would be a cinch for them :p.

cormorant

11-03-2009, 01:56 PM

Finding containers - don't we have orions , seakings and a collins class or 2 . If they couldn't find them I don't like their chances of protecting out borders but will they do it???

We nearly struck a container years ago that had been in the water a long time by the look of it and sat about 2 feet under the surface , if it wasn't for the plentifull fish underneath it we would have been well pissed off. Was partially torn and looked like it was full of foam and wood.

Couldn't believe what a good fad it was

We told police it's position and attached a small buoy on a rope so it was visable

PADDLES

11-03-2009, 02:12 PM

don't worry, the epa will do their job where ships are concerned. they'll keep it in port till it's fixed and also clean up the mess at the expense of the ship operator.

castlemaine

11-03-2009, 02:16 PM

Good thing we have green zones to stop the nasty fishermen damaging the enviroment

Apparently the container ship had to make a hard right, losing it's load, to avoid running into a tinny, fishing in a Green Zone with four rods, 8 hooks, turtle-catching crab-pots, anchor-dragging thorough seagrass beds at more than 4 knots ... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D 8-)
Did I miss something???8-)

Angla

11-03-2009, 02:16 PM

Could be a good method for the navy to go fishing. Just hit it with a small torpedo..........KABOOM. Then just scoop up all the stunned fish. Isn't that the square hook method used up north in PNG

Chris

backlash08

11-03-2009, 02:32 PM

water police should be able to tell us if the containers floated or sunk?

Marlin_Mike

11-03-2009, 02:40 PM

i am guessing that they are floating, which most containers can do for quite a long period.

Mike

rando

11-03-2009, 03:45 PM

31 forty foot containers fell off a ship last night out from Moreton, should make a decent arti!!!.:)

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 03:53 PM

How can we find ou if these containers floated away or sunk.. listen for notices to mariners ya recon??

They have just put out the first Notice to Mariners Warning on them;

OUTSIDE PILOTAGE AREAS
LOCALITY: CAPE MORETON
ACTIVITY: CONTAINERS LOST OVERBOARD
Mariners are advised that thirty-one shipping containers have been lost over the side from a ship
about 7 NM east of Cape Moreton in approximate position Latitude 27° 01.5'S, Longitude
153°36'E. There have been no reports of any containers floating, however the containers may be
floating just under the surface of the water. The containers were reported overboard at 03:15hrs
11 March 2009.
Mariners are advised exercise extreme caution when navigating in this area and report the
position of any shipping containers to Brisbane Port Control.
AUS Charts Affected: 235
Maritime Safety Queensland Charts Affected: Moreton Bay – Manly to Mooloolaba (MB1)
Maritime Safety Queensland Beacon to Beacon Directory 7th Edition map 5
Maritime Safety Queensland Beacon to Beacon Directory 8th Edition map 5

murf

11-03-2009, 04:06 PM

They have just put out the first Notice to Mariners Warning on them;

so there is your GPS marks for your new artificial reef ;)

rando

11-03-2009, 04:21 PM

ABC radio had a report from a chopper crew that they did a search grid over the reported position of the lost containers and could see none afloat.
They also report an oil spill 400 mt wide by 20 kms long which they followed in the hope of seeing containers,but did not see any.

New Arti in place.probably in a declared no-fishing zone.

levinge

11-03-2009, 04:36 PM

Lets see the Greenies try to make them into green zones TIC.

Won't be long and they will definitely start to attract the fish, just have to find and plot them.

tunaticer

11-03-2009, 04:40 PM

I suspect the deck of the ship will be vacuum cleaned at the port to handle the spill using big industrial vehicle mounted vacuums.

Aparently the 32 shipping containers came off the boat in very deep water indicating that it was well offshore from point lookout where it all happened.

EPA whist concerned about the loss of the containers of amonia nitrate, are more worried about the spillages off the deck into moreton bay being a shallow environemnt that recycles the majority of its water each tide. There is also a fairly major oil spill on the damaged ship that lost the containers. Aparently they can not effectively contain the oil leak.

FNQCairns

11-03-2009, 04:43 PM

Fuel tank gash!!

Diesel + Ammonium nitrate...now that's cooking with gas;D;D;D

cheers fnq

Pretzil

11-03-2009, 04:46 PM

Hmm, weren't they full of ammonium nitrate tho???

tailorboi99

11-03-2009, 04:51 PM

Yeah from what I've heard they were too. Hope they make a good home to some serious fish!

Tom

oldboot

11-03-2009, 05:00 PM

Without any bouyant contents I would expect the containers to sink reasonably quickly.....and I doubt thay would be using first class water tight containers to ship fertiliser.

So hopefully they are at the bottom by now.

cheers

Mikeey

11-03-2009, 05:20 PM

yeah i heard this on the news just before, holy shit that water must of heated up with that amount going into the water, thats why the reef is dead, not from globle warming,

i use to work in a checmical factory for 2 years (finished at the start of this year), we use to get ass rapped for any tiny amount of chemical down the drain, so they spent a few million making a water treatment plant which i ran for the last few months, no more than 5g of zinc down the drain, ammonion nitrate if very explosive, was always under lock at work, bin caught fire as we dumped about 5kg into the bin then it rained oxidizing it all so up in flames it went,

if it was out in rough sea then it should be ok, if it was in the bay, then maybe a bit of stuff will die,

only time will tell,

Edit: my bad, potassium nitrate goes hot, ammionon nitrate goes freezing cold, so chances are this stuff has gone rock solid and will take ages to disolve, not good news

TimiBoy

11-03-2009, 05:25 PM

If they are properly sealed they will displace around 27 tons of water, so they will float, just, as they weigh close to 22 tons. We have to hope they were damaged as they fell and belted each other. If they did, they would have sunk rather quickly...

I'll be out there asap having a look!

Cheers,

Tim

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 05:40 PM

Surprising what will float as Timiboy has highlighted, it has to do with displacement, not just weight.

Containers these days are supposed to have plugs in them that dissolve slowly when submerged to eventually sink any lost containers.

Skusto

11-03-2009, 05:42 PM

is that gps position in degrees and minutes

Marlin_Mike

11-03-2009, 06:04 PM

"Another 3000 tonnes is believed to have spilled on board the ship which is due into the Port of Brisbane about 11am."

Channel 10 news said only 3 tonnes spilled over deck. Thats about what it looked like in the footage too....3000 tonnes was way off the mark and over the top.

Mike

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 06:18 PM

The Reporters can't seem to come to grips with the difference between Kilograms and Tonnes!!.

3,000kgs (3 Tonnes) was spilled according to earlier reports.

Outsider1

11-03-2009, 06:23 PM

is that gps position in degrees and minutes

Yes, datum is WGS 84

PinHead

11-03-2009, 06:37 PM

the ammonium nitrate will dissolve in the wtaer..not worried about it..but some bugger better be containing that oil and in a hurry

I just hope Bohm, Baltais and Shooter are in the BatBoat and heading out there to fix the problem..Oh, hang on, they just whinge about it all...they never actually do anything.

Black_Rat

11-03-2009, 06:51 PM

So was it off Point Lookout North Straddie (News Stories) or Cape Moreton (Notice To Mariners) ?

FNQCairns

11-03-2009, 06:52 PM

darn shame that oil didn't drift the other way or have longer to travel before reaching our shores, oil is biological to specific organisms and the processes of the sea and is well able to convert it to feed, as is the beach and the rocks etc.

Because the media is the media I dunno the true volume spilt or landed .....it was the oil equivalent of heating oil?? that is not heavy crude....this is not an environmental disaster...it's not good but not a disaster either, the zealots will play it as such...lot's of money/position/power involved now and in the future the larger than life it gets from here on in.

The Exon Valdez was an environmental disaster.

cheers fnq

Bowser

11-03-2009, 07:24 PM

I am more p1ssed at the reactions of the EPA. They have said bugger all. Obviously their title is a misnomer, they do SFA to protect the environment, just act as the jackbooted troopers for Cap'n Bligh, shoring up her prefernce deals. The reports are coming from Maritime services etc, not the ENVIROMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY. Mybe they should use the title that they actually actions, the Electoral Protection Agency.

On that line, I note that they haven't taken a stand at the Tinnie and Tackle show, sent the poor beggars from fisheries to cop the flack instead.

Gutless pricks, they could borrow their leaders hard hats to protect themselves i need be.

hkconc

11-03-2009, 08:45 PM

news of a 10 klm oil slick on morten island on the news.
An accident waiting to happen. 30 containers gone overboard. Worst disaster ever in seq waters. Did you see the containers stacked on the ship. Held on with a few cables.

chief

11-03-2009, 08:49 PM

If the EPA were as serious about protecting our coastlines as much as their well researched green zones.Could they not devert ships from entering cyclone areas carrying chemicals . Sorry i wasn't thinking, that would cost large substanial companies money. Well done EPA, forget about real issues just keep painting those pretty green squares.Your getting very very good.

Mike Delisser

11-03-2009, 09:11 PM

Worst disaster ever in seq waters. .

Been plenty of lives lost in SEQ waters- unfortunatley it looks like another 2 from the trawler off Rocky.:-[ I think you should change your post to worst environmental disaster.

Blueroo

11-03-2009, 09:42 PM

Ok people, when the water calms down be careful out there when you are out fishing again .
Containers usually float at sea level or just below where you cant see them. Who knows where they will drift and when they will sink.
BE CAREFUL.
Stue

hkconc

12-03-2009, 06:45 AM

yer im sure the army will be out there looking for them, (in about 6 months time.)
They got nothing else to do but waste tax payers money on joy flights. Send them out asap on a search and distroy, or even a search and recovery mission. What if they packed with anthrax, would they still leave them where the fell overboard?

Apollo

12-03-2009, 07:13 AM

Semi funny story about floating containers. About 15yrs ago we were doing a yacht race beween Sydney and Newcastle in about 15kts of wind. Sea state was good and same with visability. Next thing were hits something and went from 8.5knts to 0. One of the boys was thrown into the water. We took the hit clean on the keel, so we had several minutes of trying to get things sorted. Two boys went to check the keel bolts whilst two others flung the dan bouy, hit the MOB button on the GPS and retained a visual on him at all times. The rest dropped sails, cleared lines from over the side and pulled floor board checking for damage. After the all clear motor was started and we motored back to pick up Johno who was sitting in the water, hanging onto the dan bouy. As we got closer, we could see him smiling away. Then as we got about 30m away he stood up with all but 20-30cm of him clear of the water. Well didn't that change our plan of attack. He was standing on a shipping container that looked like it had not been in the water long. We eased on up and retrieved him, tied on a float, then called into the water police and coast guard with coordinates and current drift data.

Johno never let us forget that he could walk on water and he told the story better and better over the years when well lubricated.

So for those boys looking to head out to try and find these containers, be very careful as we had no chance of spotting this one dispite a relatively slow speed and good conditions.

Fish_gutz

12-03-2009, 09:09 AM

This disaster is a result of the howard years!(and a bit of bad weather) He did away with Aussie ships and aussie crews and left it open for these foreign owned rust buckets called Flag of convenience Ships with poorly maintained ships and poorly paid foreign crews who could do the job cheaper! Thanks Johny.

Outsider1

12-03-2009, 11:23 AM

Latest update on the spill(s);

Seems there was a mix of fuel and Ammonium Nitrate that is making them a tad cautious (so would I be!!)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/12/2514146.htm?section=justin

Qld Govt defends oil spill response

Posted 19 minutes ago
Updated 11 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/news/img/2007/btn_editorspick_prev_26x16.png (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:slideshowPrev%28%29;) http://www.abc.net.au/news/img/2007/btn_editorspick_next_26x16.png (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:slideshowNext%28%29;)
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348279_1592787.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348279_1592792.jpg) Oil slick washing onto Marcoola beach on the Sunshine Coast.

Video: Oil slick washing up on Qld beaches (ABC News) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348272_1592737.asx)
Video: Ship loses 31 containers at sea off Qld (ABC News) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348206_1592320.asx)
Audio: Oil slick washing up on Qld Sunshine Coast beach (ABC News) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/audio/200903/20090312-qldoilslick-davemclaine.mp3)
Map: Brisbane 4000 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-27.4698&long=153.024&caption=Brisbane%204000)
Related Story: Oil slicks washing up on Qld beaches (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/12/2513869.htm)
Related Story: Oil slick washes up on Moreton Island (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/11/2513712.htm)
Related Link: Map: Moreton Island and Sunshine Coast Oil Spill - affected areas (http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/moreton-oilspill/default.htm)
Related Link: Send us your photos and video (http://www.abc.net.au/news/upload)
The Queensland Government has defended the time it has taken to respond to a 20-tonne oil spill off south-east Queensland.
The cargo ship Pacific Adventurer's hull was holed early yesterday morning when it lost 31 containers of ammonium nitrate overboard in rough seas whipped up by Cyclone Hamish.
There are now fears of a major environmental disaster, with oil slicks washing ashore on Moreton Island off Brisbane and further north at Marcoola on the Sunshine Coast.
Queensland Sustainability Minister Andrew McNamara says the potentially dangerous chemicals and severe weather conditions hampered efforts to inspect the spill yesterday.
"First off, the boat had to be made safe," he said.
"There was 25 kilos of ammonium nitrate that entered the fuel tank which contained a very significant amount of fuel oil - that has to be resolved before you can have people in and around the vessel.
"Similarly there was 2,000 kilos of ammonium nitrate mixed with oil on the ship's deck."
Queensland Transport Minister John Mickel says the Pacific Adventurer will dock at the Port of Brisbane this morning, with investigations underway into how the incident happened.
"The Australian Transport Safety Bureau, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority are working with Maritime Safety Queensland to conduct a full investigation of what happened with this incident," he said.
The slick is affecting Moreton Island, Moreton Bay and the Sunshine Coast.
Surf lifesaver Dave McLaine says there is a lot of oil washed up on to Marcoola beach.
"It's quite heavy in some spots - I've just been down there for a walk myself and have come back and it's caked all over over my thongs and all over my feet," he said.
"I've just spent about 15 minutes in the shower trying to get it all off."
Resident Robyn Cameron also says her feet have been covered in black oil at Marcoola beach.
"It's up to my ankles," she said.
"I first thought it was just the foam from the rough conditions and then I realised, 'oh my goodness, this is oil', so I've been out with the citrus cleaner to scrub it off with a brush."
Wildlife dying

Queensland Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) spokesman Clive Cook says it has started treating wildlife injured by the spill.
He says choppy seas are spreading the oil slick north-west from Moreton Bay.
"We've had one confirmed report of a sea bird with oil on it and two others unconfirmed, so we are prepared for the contingency of treating oiled wildlife," he said.
"We have a number of staff trained up in oiled wildlife response.
"They're spread up and down the coast and we're starting to back up the initial crews."
'Clean-up could take years'

Channel 7 pilot Greg Rogers says the slick will take months, if not years, to clean up.
"The worst of it is still within the 10-kilometre radius of the cape but its still quite evident on the beach," he said.
"The pristine white sands of Moreton Island are very black in places today."
He says the scene is reminiscent of the 1978 Amoco Cadiz oil spill in France.
"It's just one continuous black beach from Cape Moreton down to ... Blue [Lagoon] and there is evidence of less contamination further south," he said.
Mr Rogers says the high tides have pushed the contamination right up into the sand dunes.
"All the rocks are covered in oil - God knows how many millions of crustaceans have died as a result," he said.
He says a pelican has been taken in by the Tangalooma hospital as the first of many animals affected by the spill which the hospital expects to find.
"All its white feathers are brown as though its ... one of the American pelicans - all brown and ugly."
A barge carrying clean-up teams is due to arrive in the area at 10:30am AEST and Mr Rogers says the clean-up is going to be lengthy and costly.
"Whoever is ultimately responsible - whether it be an insurance company or the shipping company - are in for an awful lot of money," he said.

Marlin_Mike

12-03-2009, 11:25 AM

Channel 10 just showed footage of the spill washing up on Straddie and Moreton Beaches. Not pretty............... not pretty at all

Mike

hkconc

12-03-2009, 11:36 AM

why was the captain heading into a cyclone anyhow. He was from newcastle and heading to brisbane, into a cyclone. We all knew a week ago there was a cyclone off the coast

Mayney

12-03-2009, 11:54 AM

Bloody Hell!

Going to Moreton Island next week with the boys for some fishing???

Green Zones, Oil spill, Ammonia Nitrate, Cyclones.

Looks like I will have to pack and extra carton to keep me busy.

I suspect that the place will be crawling with EPA, Media and Police types

:'(

thesav

12-03-2009, 12:23 PM

Bruce. I guess we will have to stick to the Western beach. The winds might have forced us to do it anyway. The extra carton is a good idea and I'll pack an extra meal as our normal fish meal looks in jeapody.
Regards
TheSav

Sandman

12-03-2009, 12:38 PM

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 12:56 PM

I think its an oppurtunity for us ammetur fishermen/ woman to help with cleaning up the damaged area as much as possible regarles of who is to blame. Does anyone know if this can occur.
Certainly give it to the EPA and show that we are about the enviroment?

PS dont slog my comments i think they are relevent regardless.

Mick

You will not have time, by all accounts it will have oxidised by then (the weather is rough), the environment is working like a trooper already, best to save any unlucky bird life, the fish will hardly know it's there...except for regions of the beach where Dart etc would easily find a feed...they will move on but come back as will everything else.

And besides the zealots are for sure mobilising their environmental cult members for an on mass assault on the beaches, this could be a political opportunity unparalleled for their cause.

This assault will in all probability be potentially more damaging to the environment as a whole than just leaving nature to deal with this as easily as it has done so many countless times over the eons.

cheers fnq

Stuart

12-03-2009, 05:01 PM

I live on the Sunshine Coast and just heard on the radio that the EPA have asked the Sunshine Coast councile to immediately stop all cleaning of the 8klms of beach that has heavy oil on it. The EPA said not to use machinery but rather use hand tools like shovels and racks, these guys are dead set dick heads. It would take months to clean 8klm’s of oil with hand tools, what are these guys smoking beside their own tool. Lets not worry about lost revenue from the tourist dollars and the jobs that will soon follow in the wake of this disaster. The EPA will just sit back and wait for all the dead sea life to wash up before they do something about it. The EPA is a wast of tax payers money, and what the hell is Captain Bligh doing about this? They were so shore that it wouldn’t hit the beaches and look at it now, again the whole lot of them are self serving brain dead turds.

Stu

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 05:09 PM

The EPA is correct, the minor real damage (it being there) is already done, it's nice to clean the patio I suppose but why risk doing more damage ie to the foredunes?

This is so far from a catastrophe it's not funny.

What if the oil was clear?

cheers fnq

Scalem

12-03-2009, 05:39 PM

I think its an oppurtunity for us ammetur fishermen/ woman to help with cleaning up the damaged area as much as possible regarles of who is to blame. Does anyone know if this can occur.
Certainly give it to the EPA and show that we are about the enviroment?

PS dont slog my comments i think they are relevent regardless.

Mick

Hang on, Mick has a point. This morning I heard NONE of the containers have been recovered, not one. Can you imagine ( as Timiboy has already suggested he goes out to try find any) if as many offshore capable amatueur and professional craft locate some of these containers , that will be the best coordinated effort we have ever dreamed of, which enforces what we always knew. Fishermen are part of the solution. The majority of us help sustain our marine environment, not destroy it.

I can see it now "SOBA volunteers find lost containers"

Naturally finding them won't be by Impact of another kind but environmental:-X

But I just saw on the news that they may be as deep as 250mtrs. Current may bring them in more shallow . I have never seen a container on a sounder, how obvious would one be?

Scalem

rando

12-03-2009, 05:49 PM

FNQ>
Mate, with all respect,,, you are kidding??. Every single beach worm , ghost crab,pippi, cockle, rock crab,etc. From the NW point to half way down the island..... gone.
If left there it will wash up and down the beaches already affected and then spread to areas still unaffected by the successive high tides ,wind, and currents.
Have a look at the photos from the ABC web site. IT"S A DISGRACE.

The EPA has clean -up teams " Standing By" ,, for heavens sake.

Here is a tangible opportunity for EPA to show the community some effective practical leadership, and environment protection, instead of pointing the finger at rec fishers and interfering in other departments portfolio's.
EPA ....MIA

Seahorse

12-03-2009, 06:04 PM

i just watched the news.
this is a catastrophe. noone in their right mind could say anything else.
f... the patio.
fnq, where r u? theres no respect. you have to be kidding.
stu, iam with you.

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 06:06 PM

yeah it is a shame about the sand inhabitants but they will be back and quite fast also...this is not a do it now or all is lost scenario.

Cleaning the ugliness now will not bring them back, the strand lines are largely oxidised oil. The EPA knows this, why do more real damage just for the visual appeal?

Yeah cleaning the patio is very apt.

cheers fnq

ffejsmada

12-03-2009, 06:17 PM

FNQ, again, with all due respect, are you a scientist or the equivalent???

This post is in relation to both "oil" threads.

Seahorse

12-03-2009, 06:17 PM

well u clan ur patio, and lucky we havny got u organising the clean up.
its a disgrace

4x4frog

12-03-2009, 06:21 PM

Just saw them speaking to some goose from the EPA on the Ch9 news, all he could do was wax lyrical in the usual public service speal they always carry on with. Public servants are really in a world of their own.
Which fool let this ship steam into the cyclone and why did it take so long to even get EPA people on the ground on Moreton? They should have been on the first barge the minute they heard about this tradgedy. Even if they were not needed, it's better than arriving today after the beaches are covered in oil.
Hopefully this will send more of a message to the Qld public that the Green Zones are a joke because the EPA are behind them.
I guess there isn't really anything the man on the street can do to help the clean up?

Marlin_Mike

12-03-2009, 06:24 PM

Channel 10 news earlier:

The Hoing Kong based owners of the vessel said they will be paying for the clean up, and are sending over their own clean up crew

Channel 9 news earlier:

The EPA have said the oil spill is worse than first thought. They are having a meeting to work out what to do.

Medias words, not mine.

Mike

GBC

12-03-2009, 06:25 PM

Interesting theory scalem,

Some claim jurassic park is just a row of lost containers and they show up O.K..
Then again, an amateur fisho finding something that's going to be his very own snapper spot in a couple of years might be a large temptation?:P

Then again, what's 20 odd tonne of fertiliser worth on the market these days?::)

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 06:30 PM

FNQ, again, with all due respect, are you a scientist or the equivalent???

This post is in relation to both "oil" threads.

No I am a home dad, best career i ever had or will ever have I suspect, I will never go back to tertiary qualified employment in the environmental industry, it's lost the plot, vocal environmental uneducated lines of Seahorses behind everything 'catastrophic' these days.

This could have been a catastrophe, we got of so very light.

cheers fnq

justjack

12-03-2009, 06:42 PM

SummerTrance

12-03-2009, 07:08 PM

....this is not an environmental disaster...it's not good but not a disaster either

Sitting here reading through this thread, I have have to say im dam sick of you sitting up there in north qld trying to tell us this is not a disaster. For all of us down here looking at the pictures on the news of oil in the waters we fish, and covering the beaches we take our families to, its a real disaster, a bloody huge disaster!

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 07:09 PM

no i call light 1litre bottle of oil 30 tonne not so much, put a barrel of oil all over your patio then let me know when i disapears, should only be a few weeks, yeah stuff will come back but by no means over night EPA said the effect of this will last for years, the oil has gone up both freshwater creeks on moreton eagers and spitfighter, now they are creeks your not even allowed to swim in, i guess the old jungle perch will have to learn to swim in oil because ive seen how good EPA are at using shovels and rakes, i spose it will only take a week to clean all that up, i can see it now everyone looking at who's in charge and asking what do we do with this shovel i didnt learn this at uni, you think that seeing the oil has mostly effected green and yellow zones they would get something bigger then a shovel

I saw vision of one creek on the news, that was a real shame for it's local environment.

I will still try and keep it as broad as possible though, all organisms have a range they will thrive within, this slick wherever it washes totally overwhelms this range...they die fast, no cleanup will bring them back now -they are dead, the slick that we see washing everywhere up and back is washing for the 100 thousandth time over dead substrates...all that is left now is to wait until it remediates it's self.

The reality from here on in is that all damage will naturally remediate well, whether the now dead areas are cleaned or not.

The organisms we can see where never the point it's the ones we cannot see - trillions of them, all orders above these will stem from those. It would be a catastrophe if serious heavy metal or radiation or seriously bioaccumulating chemicals caused this but they didn't, it will rebound very well, just like any ones backyard does after say spraying it with a short lived herbaside.

The above is speaking very broadly but it is the state of play ATM and the EPA know it, hell they knew it before this relatively low volume for area oil slick hit the beach.

In 2 weeks a person will be able to drive the worst beach and catch fish.

cheers fnq
.

Ozwald

12-03-2009, 07:10 PM

FNQ, again, with all due respect, are you a scientist or the equivalent???

This post is in relation to both "oil" threads

I'm with FNQ on this one and he's about right as far as the science is concerned. The fractions of the heavy oil that do the worst damage are the volatile and water soluble components that have all dispersed by the time the heavier fractions wash up on the coast. The black or brown mess that comes ashore is fairly innocuous to birds and mammals once it has been washed up. If they come into contact with it when it's freshly spilt its a different matter as they then become exposed to the lighter and more toxic fractions and have to deal with fur and feathers being clogged.

The shoreline ecology recovers pretty quickly in about 12-18mths after a spill that results in heavy oiling. However the recovery isnt equal for all species and some residual effects from oil remain as does some of the oil but this depends on the type of shoreline and type of oil. Significant damage can result from clean ups, either from the chemicals used as dispersants which are often more toxic than the oil, or physical destruction of habitats when mechanical means are used. So from a science view point once a spill has occurred let nature take its course as it does a pretty good job without our help. However a much better option is to put systems in place that prevent the spills from occuring in the first place. There's a wealth of information on the recovery of coastline ecosystems after spills including the Torrey Canyon in '67 through to the Exxon Valdez in '89.

However that doesnt help much when considering the impact on people's amenity and enjoyment of the coast, tourism, livelihoods, etc.

Oz

Here's some sites focused on the Exxon Valdez that provide further reading on the subject:
http://www.valdezsciences.com/index.cfm
http://www.evostc.state.ak.us
http://response.restoration.noaa.gov

BLOOEY

12-03-2009, 07:28 PM

I see your'e point FNQ. And i will have to believe you on the science of this as i don't know the properties of these chemicals. But after seeing the footage on the news tonight i have to say i'm horrified that this has happened. A disaster it most certainly is!
Just read Justjacks respose and have to agree that this kind of disaster is always on the cards with thousands of container ships entering the port each year. They are delivering the things we are accustomed to in our modern society. Oil,Resins ect. All used by us to get out there and fish. So what i'm saying is that we are all partially to blame for this for living the way that we do. Ben

justjack

12-03-2009, 07:42 PM

but yet again its like if a plane crashes and everyone dies, well we know they have perished so we will leave it at that.... i know this is a situation about humans and is hard to compare but i feel as an environment we have destroyed as humans both should be handled the same

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 07:47 PM

I see your'e point FNQ. And i will have to believe you on the science of this as i don't know the properties of these chemicals. But after seeing the footage on the news tonight i have to say i'm horrified that this has happened. A disaster it most certainly is! Ben

Yeah I will agree to call it categorised disaster bit like a bushfire could be called a disaster if viewed specificly, the bush is well versed in dealing with the aftermath as is the marine environment with the oil slick, neither of these environs see it as a disaster, each will simply regenerate/rebound.

Honest I do wonder if the oil slick was clear, just what would be the state of play here and now in the media. A picture is worth a thousand words and it does look bad but thankfully it was not crude oil! and 50 times more in volume, it could have been.

Someone does need to be strung up for it though.

cheers fnq

ROBENDOG

12-03-2009, 07:49 PM

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 08:03 PM

Does anybody know how this disaster will affect fish and crab eating quality and safety??? Short term and long term??

With a young family and preganant wife I wonder if this will make fish unsafe to eat now or in the future??

None from this I would assume, the theory is well established but the magnitude and practice of this event is not.

Still, do you regularly eat fish/crabs that has grown most of their lives in this very specific area impacted?

cheersfnq

twist

12-03-2009, 08:09 PM

What the hell was a ship doing heading north along the coast directly toward a category 4 at the time CYCLONE! Surely there was somewhere for them to wait. They stack those containers so high it blows me away that they might risk it so close to a marine park.

f.t.r.

12-03-2009, 08:14 PM

Spaniard_King

12-03-2009, 08:20 PM

my main concern in all of this is where the containers are.

the last thing we all need is 31 floating hull busters.

matty

It's OK I herd there heading north :-X .. well herd the oil slik is ;D

BR65

12-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Nico.d.R

12-03-2009, 08:35 PM

I dont believe they brought a leaking ship into port , they didnt even try to keep the oil contained at the dock . dont they use float lines to stop spills spreading ? the footage on the news showed it tied up with a black cloud off oil seaping into the river . The dick from the epa was very casual about it " oh its ok its not harmfull untill its mixed with other stuff " .
As for leaving nature to do its thing , wouldnt a lot more areas get effected if it was left to wash around in the surf and get spread out by the tides .

nico

captain rednut

12-03-2009, 08:42 PM

the epa are talking it down ask the pelicans how they feel about being black in colour?????????

BR65

12-03-2009, 08:56 PM

For F.sake boys, fire up, some clown in Far North Queensland is telling you how good it will all be, easy when your that far away and its not your local.
FNQ, I know you wernt the cause, but please dont tell me its all good!
That gives me the sh#ts

sleepygreg

12-03-2009, 08:57 PM

To the poster on another thread who accused FNQ of 'not giving a sh&t'....take a step back and read his posts carefully.
They are based on science and not sensationalism. I also posted a similar, though not as detailed response.

Just like the cyclone itself..we dodged a bullet on this one. Yes it looks bloody ugly, and yes a lot of marine creatures will die, as will vegetation be affected...yes it shouldnt have happened and the full force of the law should be brought against those responsible.

And dont forget the same media that beat up the impact that fisherman have on the environment are the ones beating up the damage this will have on the environment.

I DO have tertiary training in agricultural science/environmental science.....though I have never worked in that capacity. I have also had a keen interest in the ecosystems around our coastline because of my fishing interests, and have observed many similar incidents, though on a much smaller and non media reported scale. In ALL incidents, the areas affected have returned to their former glory within 6 - 12 months....both aesthetically and biologically.

Moreton Bay Regional Council does as much damage to the intertidal zone from scarborough to margate every week with its tractors raking the sand to remove rubbish and make the beaches look pretty...but i hear no one arking up about that.

The fact that is fuel oil and not crude will greatly reduce, if not negate, the long term impact. As for the Ammonium nitrate.....it will be diluted over a number of years by the ocean currents, as it will be sitting in contained solid lumps on the ocean floor. If the containers are floating at present...they will eventually sink...so this will even further dilute the impact on the environment.

And how about this for a thought......what an ideal opportunity for the Navy to do an excercise to find the containers....minesweepers to scour the surface, anti sub frigates to scour the bottom, Orions to map the bottom.

Does this mean I dont give a sh#t? No way. Im just taking a reality check.
BTW Im not impressed either.....was intending to fish the area affected on Sunday....not looking forward to dodging containers if they are floating just below the surface.

Greg

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 09:01 PM

FNQ,
please post up for all either:

a/ The lats and lons of your patio
or
b/
The lats and lons of your favourite fishing, snorkeling, camping spots.

I would so love to move this up the coast a bit to where you live, dump it on your week end spots, seeing as how it is a media beat up, and it will all go away with "unfortunate" minimal impact.
The footage on TV tonite made me want to vomit.
Ive camped at Moreton since I was a kid, swum in those fresh water creeks, fished the Cape off the rocks, pulled beach worms and surf fished the gutters, anchored on the coffee rock reefs in close doing over niters chasing sweeties and knobbies since I could afford an off shore rig.
I dont care what your science says, your words come across to me as self serving smugness from some one who is not faced with this shite fight in their back yard, you dont have to see/smell it when you put the boat in the water next time for a quick summers morning run to the Cape to chase a few reefies, macks or tuna.
Pull your head in!
Goose!
Hows that for an emotional over reaction!!!!!
brian

I too have spent MANY a day enjoying those areas from my years down there, what would you rather me say?

Quick clean it up, would be done by now...but by what magic?

What will it achieve to clean up an effectively inert substance laying over dead substrate and lots of healthy substrate higher up on the beach??

I do wonder who would have raised an eyebrow at this stage if the oil was clear?

The time to deal with it was before the oil reached the shore if to make any measurable difference in outcome.

I have read the EPA has bent to election campaign needs and growing public hysteria and is now playing the game they play so well.

Seriously if a person did give a non biased crap about the environment they would consider everything I have said as the glass is half full;), seriously again - it says lot's about the true state of reasoning behind what drives many peoples opinion.

cheers fnq

captain rednut

12-03-2009, 09:09 PM

thanks greg i feel worked up about this subject too and will be fishing this area sunday and monday am im worried what impact it has too??? but ill wait and see and hope the goverment learn from this and implement some dramatic changes in shipping cargo storage in transit?? i hope we all learn from this? thanks jim

rakinray

12-03-2009, 09:09 PM

G/ Day all i have to agree that this whole thing should never have happened, what the hell was he thinking when he decided to tackle the Cat 4 Cyclone, and as we have all seen with our own eyes the devestating results with the oil sludge all over our beautiful Islands. The other thing that really got me thinking about our Enviro Protection Agency was that they said on the news tonight that the EPA gave the ship with the 3000kgs of POISON >:( on its decks permission to clean it off while happily anchored up in our Moreton Bay Marine Park ! How does this happen to a place that is described in their own Moreton Bay MarinePark user guide as and i quote from this bible of GREEN ZONES ! One of Australia's top 12 shore bird habitats, >:( is one of three extensive intertidal areas of sea grass,mangroves and saltmarsh on Australia's east coast, >:( is ranked among the top 10 Dugong habitats in Australia, >:( is one of the most important feeding areas for threatened marine turtles along Australia's east coast, >:( and the bottle nose Dolphin population centered around Point Look-Out, is one of the largest congregations of Bottle Nose Dolphins in the WORLD ! Surely this is not the right agency to be protecting OUR BAY for future generations of Queenslanders ! This is just not RIGHT !

cheers RAY. PS another gem from the MBMPUGuide is that Zoning helps ensure the continued existence of the unique species and habitat ! but its ok to dump 3000kgs of highly toxic CRAP :'( in it ! Just my thoughts.

Ready Jet Go

12-03-2009, 09:11 PM

What on earth was the ship doing heading towards a cyclone and close to shore it has to be neglegence. Im very upset about the whole thing I just love moreton island like most who know it. I have been trying find a way of volunteering to help epa have a volunteer register ph 1300130372 choose oil spills then an operator directs you to the person responsible. I wish fnq was right but dont beleive him. Im so angry I thought I should try and help in any small way possible.
Dean

captain rednut

12-03-2009, 09:15 PM

hi greg thanks for your post i hope something good is learnt from this??

BR65

12-03-2009, 09:18 PM

I too have spent MANY a day enjoying those areas from my years down there, what would you rather me say?
The truth, that this will have a long term detrimental impact on the area

Quick clean it up, would be done by now...but by what magic?
What are you on about?
What will it achieve to clean up an effectively inert substance laying over dead substrate and lots of healthy substrate higher up on the beach??
Never thought of the Cape rocks, inter tdal beach surf zone and surrounds as dead sub strata

I do wonder who would have raised an eyebrow at this stage if the oil was clear?
Clear, black, green, does the colour lessen the impact?
The time to deal with it was before the oil reached the shore if to make any measurable difference in outcome.
Correct
I have read the EPA has bent to election campaign needs and growing public hysteria and is now playing the game they play so well.
Im not interested in politics, or your political persuasion, however subtle you pronounce it. If you have a beef with Labour, take it up at the polling booth, dont use damage to my local spot as your soap box please
Seriously if a person did give a non biased crap about the environment they would consider everything I have said as the glass is half full;), seriously again - it says lot's about the true state of reasoning behind what drives many peoples opinion.
Like I said, lets move it to your local, I will tell you how good it will all be, and you can respond as I have. I will then await your glass half full opinion with anticipation
cheers fnq

As per red text above, I was going to type in clear, but that would lessen the perceived impact.

FNQCairns

12-03-2009, 09:50 PM

BR I am not as flash as you with the quotes so I will old school it but I would have done this in say...blue.

Still what is your definition of long term?? Nature has it's own definition, ever heard of evolution. Above in posts you may not have bothered to read is a good estimation of the time scale involved, new visitors to the area will likely not notice any appreciable degradation at 6months even after looking for it but please discount here the relative before/after size of organisms eg pipis.

What's dead is already dead...what magic by way of clean up procedure of inert substance will help this.

Cape rocks...they are dead now...you really should read my past posts first.

Clear would be good pink might even be pretty enough to calm some types....

Correct and a obviously no brainer...thanks!

Yeah history IS the denominator over the EPA under Labor. Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour.

No I wouldn't...how hard is that to understand (not that I need you too) some go red faced, some deal with the facts of the situation as they stand until new facts present.....any new facts you can elaborate on within the issue.

cheers fnq

Mike Delisser

12-03-2009, 09:55 PM

my main concern in all of this is where the containers are.

the oil slick, while disgusting, will be cleaned in one way or another.

hopefully the clean up includes a thorough search, with all results made public.

while all the press has been on the slick, not one word on the containers.

the last thing we all need is 31 floating hull busters.

matty

The cargo ship lost 31 of its 50 shipping containers at about 3.15am (AEST) on Wednesday, when it was seven nautical miles east of Cape Moreton.
The MSQ spokesman said there were currently no disruptions to shipping in the area and it was probable the 620 tonnes of ammonium nitrate would never be recovered.
'It happened outside of Moreton Bay, on the eastern cape, in water with about 200 metres depth,' he said.
'If they sank it's likely they'll stay there.'
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said the oil spill could potentially kill any wildlife it came into contact with.
But the ammonium nitrate should dilute enough so as not to cause any major problems other than algal blooms, EPA incident response adviser Mike Short said.

Mike Delisser

12-03-2009, 11:01 PM

On the subject of would the containers sink or float and remembering that the ave gross of the containers lost overboard was 20,000kg. NZ Shipping web site

Our information is that most containers do in fact sink.
By multiplying the container length by its breadth and depth, and dividing by 80, the deadweight of the box would be established. Thus a 20’ box would have to exceed 16 tons before it sank. The maximum allowed gross weight of a 20’ box is 24,000 kg.
In metric terms, a 20’ box has a volume of just over 38 cubic metres. The density of seawater is 1.025 which increases the volumes (or displacement values) to just over 39 cubic metres. The forces required to push the box under the water, or to sink it, must therefore exceed the volume of water to be displaced.
Also containers are rarely watertight, most have small openings and distortions.

Added to this all 20' and 40' containers manufactured in the last few years are built with a 48hr dissolvable plug which ensures that even empty containers sink within 72hrs.

oldboot

12-03-2009, 11:08 PM

I have to agree that this issue has been over hyped both in the media and here.

We realy have to think of proportions.....yes this is a serious marine and ecological incident.
But in the larger sceme of things this is a small oil spill

there have been others of a similar scale but this one is in a very popular and visable place.

I can remember ( not well) oil on the gold coast beaches and other places in the past.

I do not believe this can correctly be called a disaster, calamity or any of the currently commonly over used sensational words.

If a the whole ship went down or worse ran aground spilling its whole load of oil and cargo in shallow water and loss of life..... that would befiitely be a disaster.... the extent of the polution would have been far greater, the damage to the environment would have been massive.

happily the containers seem to have fallen into very deep water and 600 tonnes of anything soluable and basicly low in toxisity will disipate quite sucessfully with very little real damage. ......Consider this in comparison to the amount of neutrient run off that comes down our rivers all the time

As to the oil.......yep the damage is done......what is the point of scraping up the sludge when more is still comming ashore.

from what I understand too, over a little time, that which does not disipate tends to thicken and clump as the volotiles evaporate out of it.

looking at the visual impact and "shouting do something, do something". realy isnt helpfull. certainly get out and help the larger animals if you like.

But as far as the big picture and significant results in the environment.... nothing helpfull is going to happen quickly........It will be slow, uggly and very dirty work.

One of the bigest considerations when cleaning up any "spill" ( even in your garage ) is what are you going to do with the contaminated material.

I saw the footage on the TV of a backhoe scraping up heaps of good clean sand along with the filth.....and where was it going.......there is no point till there is a contained place or thing to put the waste into.

Cleaning up serious environmental spills is something that a council backhoe operator probaly isnt trained in.

It is possible to make a real mess and particularly in this case produce many times the necessary amount of contaminated material which then has to be dumped as toxic waste redardless of its actual toxisity.

as to the other issues

where else is the ship going to go? This is a damaged ship with a potentialy expolosive situation on board and more cargo that may be at risk of comming adrift.
It has to go to the nearest port capable of handling the situatuion... so apart from brisbane where is the nearest container port?

A ship of that size should easily be able to handle all sorts of weather.... the main issue is that the cargo was not properly secured.

But the marine investigation will reveal many things.

There are many things that this incident should raise....particularly disaster (oops that word) incident planning and a few other things.

Lets all calm down... getting all bitter and twisted about it wont help at all.

cheers

rando

12-03-2009, 11:09 PM

R. Pitt

October 23, 2002

Case Study Example for Oil Spill Movement and Fate
The following discussion is a summary of oil spill analysis and impact reports prepared by Woodward Clyde Consultants for numerous clients for submission to regulatory agencies. The following discussions are excerpts and summaries from these reports and indicate how impacts associated from oil spills can be evaluated, especially in regards to spill movement and dispersion. The fate and effects of oil spills on the environment, based on selected historical oil spill incidents, are also described.

There are three properties/behaviors of oil in sea water which are important with respect to the impacts of oil on the marine environment. They are: evaporation, emulsification and, to a much lesser degree, dissolution (solubility). Other properties such as density, boiling point, pour point, viscosity, etc., are less important or manifest themselves in the three prime properties listed. The lighter fraction of crude and heavy fuel oil and other volatile fractions (i.e., those of lower molecular weight) will evaporate to the air at a rate primarily dependent on vapor pressure of the oil. However, evaporation will be enhanced by high winds and rough sea conditions, which favor formation of aerosols and increased surface area; the faster and farther the oil spreads, the faster it evaporates. Cobet and Guard (1973) found that as much as 13 percent of the Bunker C fuel lost in the San Francisco Bay spill could have evaporated within 3 months and, depending on atmospheric conditions at the time, possibly even more would have evaporated.Fuel oil, lubricating oil, and similar components have few or no volatile components and thus will not readily evaporate. On the other hand, diesel fuel and other light “cutting” stocks are comprised primarily of components which evaporate rapidly. In general, the more toxic fractions are those which evaporate fastest, leaving a less toxic, more viscous, and more dense residue in the surface slick.
Oil‑in‑water and water‑in‑oil emulsifications do form and considerable quantities of oil may be bound up in this manner. In general, the lighter fractions will go into an oil‑in‑water emulsification more easily than heavier fractions but vigorous agitation and/or solvent-#emulsifier mixtures are usually required. As the hydrocarbon molecular weight increases, the emulsions become water‑in‑oil. These water‑in‑oil emulsions tend to form naturally and easily, especially with some wind and wave agitation. They are quite stable.

SPILL Date SPILLED TYPE Cleanup detergents Recovery
San Francisco 1971 840gal Bunker "C" No 10 months +

Even if you doubled the volatile component evaporation rate ( due to climatic difference between San Francisco and here, 26% of volatile components over 3 months does not sound like its Inert to me

Oh and by oil industry standards from the same study spills are categorized in the following manner

Minor Spill ‑ a discharge of oil less than 10,000 gals (238 bbl*);
Moderate Spill ‑ a discharge of oil of 10,000 to 100,000 gals (238 to 2,380 bbl); and
Major Spill ‑ a discharge of oil of more than 100,000 gals (2,380 bbl).
*Based on 42 gal/bbl

This spill, 30 tons is approx 30000 liters, or 7925gals
I reacon 7925gallons of anything is rather a lot,,, despite what oil companies say
Cheers

rando

Ready Jet Go

12-03-2009, 11:26 PM

the oil looks dark brown and thick is it light oil fuel??? also how much really spilt out??? it looks pretty bad. surely anthing done to help with cleanup is better than doing nothing.
if you leave your dirty dishes lying around for six months the insects will probably clean them for you but what about the shiit you have to put up with untill then.

Dean

LostNearBribie

12-03-2009, 11:52 PM

Wow, I think that is the first 8 page topic I have read. Plenty more to come I reckon.
I don't have the knowledge to really comment on it, especially without being emotional.
But I was sitting at the Surf Club on Bribie Island yesterday arvo, thinking how rough it was.
You could barely see the tip of Moreton and it has eased a lot over the past couple of days.
Just can't believe these guys are out there in ships.
How bad has the weather got to be before they won't move into an area?
Very sad and dangerous.
If I get a chance I will be there with a shovel and bucket to help clean up.
I hope you guys who say it won't take long are right, I really do.

PADDLES

13-03-2009, 05:01 AM

there's guys out there all the time on big ships in that sort of weather mate, they sometimes just have to tough it out.

would any of you guys who have posted some of the emotional tripe in this thread go out in those conditions????? and here you are jumping up and down expecting some poor blokes (who probably have families too) to head out in those conditions and start trying to contain an oil spill. tell me ........ just how do you contain an oil spill in 40-50kt winds and 5m swell with another few metres of sea on that ...... i'm thinking it would be damn near impossible. i'd be pretty well certain that there's guys within the epa that are way more qualified/experienced on handling an oil spill than some of the "brains trust" that have posted on the last 8 pages. thanks to the guys who posted up some real info on what happens with oil spills.

Horse

13-03-2009, 06:16 AM

This is certainly a highly visible environmental impact and a shocking thing to have happened but I wonder how much pollution enters Moreton Bay each time we have any significant runoff. The amount of oil from roads and nitrogen from garden and agricultural fertilizers probably makes this look like a normal (though highly visible)occurance to the EPA.

Neil

TimiBoy

13-03-2009, 06:39 AM

The maximum allowed gross weight of a 20’ box is 24,000 kg.

If it's to be road transported in Qld it's only 22,000 I believe. Were they going by road or rail once on shore? LOL, gotta love splitting hairs!

Cheers,

Tim

Silent

13-03-2009, 07:54 AM

I'm still distressing....
That those pic...:'(

Jeremy

13-03-2009, 07:57 AM

A ship of that size should easily be able to handle all sorts of weather

Although I have no knowledge on this subject, I do not believe that such a claim could possibly be true. It clearly wasn't able to handle the weather at 3am Wednesday.

This ship left port (from Newcastle I believe, ) to head North at the same time as a category 4/5 cyclone was well established and was coming down the coast. The predicted track for the cyclone changed alot over the course of its life, but there was a real chance that the ship might have had to go through the cyclone, let alone just suffer the wild weather.

What if the cyclone didn't head out to sea on Tuesday? The MV Pacific Adventurer would have been coming around Sandy Cape off World Heritage Fraser Is at about that time. What would have happened then? Which port could it have turned towards?

Point is, it was IMHO a very stupid decision for it to sail when it did, and that decision has the potential to big environmental problems down here and hopefully will cost them millions in the repair bill.

Jeremy

Sandman

13-03-2009, 08:30 AM

FNQ i can not disagree with you about the possability of far greater disasters of course this could a occur and if ships are alound to motor into a Cat 4 Cyclone in the future it will happen again. Yes we are lucky that it wasnt crude, and yes the enviroment will recover over time.
But i live , play and fish in these areas, i respect the enviroment and if things change i will put my 2 cents into the scenario, i also love FNQ and would say the same if it occured up your way. So as far as arguments go on the science i wont disagree and to talk about visual pollution opposed to clear oil should it make a difference? If we can help we should, far to often we sit back and make comment about should of, could of without acting. Down our way we have been arguing about the green zones with the EPA, we discussed issues like this being that polution in the bay is far more an issue that the ametur fisho.
I was prawning last night and was disgusted by seeing the ship being towed up the river to the dry dock, i know it should be done, but as Ray stated the EPA chemical to be washed into a Bay they have just recently spent over a year protecting. We throw over a lead sinker in a zone and we would be proscuted !!!
I think the whole thing is shamless and i put my hand up to help if its required.

Mick

timddo

13-03-2009, 09:37 AM

PADDLES

13-03-2009, 09:51 AM

that's a fair call jeremy. a ship that size can handle some pretty nasty weather though. i believe that the focus now is on whether the containers were actually secured correctly. i mean it was a freak accident that the corner of a box punched through into a fuel tank, but if the boxes weren't secured correctly then that opens up another can of worms. what has happened is definitely bad, but shipping is part of the lifeblood of our country's economy and therefore our lives in general. the other factor is that ships cost sh!tloads to run/operate and have to run to strict timetables. demurrage can be around US$35k a day so it can really cost money to delay them, this could explain why it was sent north with the risk of the cyclone heading south, it's a bit of a gamble i suppose and it didn't pay off. either way there'll be a massive investigation into the damage that it has caused and it's definitely in the government's interest to make sure everything gets cleaned up and returned to normal as quickly as possible.

oldboot

13-03-2009, 10:10 AM

There are all sorts of devices designed to contain, absorb and break down various spills.......but most of them are completly useless in anything but calm waters.

Almost all of the clean up processes for this sort of thing are crude and simple.

most of you would be horified to hear that one real option is spraying the stuff with detergent.

cleaning up off a nice sany beach is pretty easy... you scoop up and much of the carp as you can and as little of the sand as you can manage and drag it away in a big bucket.......where does it go then.....Hmmm

so what do you do if it gets among the rocks or in mangroves and stuff?

cheers

Trader1

13-03-2009, 11:45 AM

levinge

13-03-2009, 11:48 AM

Thats a good question oldboot, may our friends the greenies could use their expert knowledge to fix the problem, they seem to know just about everything there is about the environment.

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 11:49 AM

According to this website about the long term impact after the Exxon Valdez oil spill (11 million Gallons). There are significant long term problems.
http://www.csuchico.edu/pub/inside/archive/04_02_05/05_valdez.html
" Rice's research team has shown that the health, growth, and reproduction of wildlife, shoreline plants, and ocean-floor invertebrates continue to show long-term effects."

I expect we will have long term problems to based on the above scientific research. The only difference is that our spill had less oil.

No mate like chalk and cheese comparing the two events, no long term environmental effects outside of designer half truths for money/power/position and simple zealotry will result from our spill.

Edit* better throw this caveat in...the freshwater reaches breached baddly will upon investigation of sediment show the lingering effects for quite some time.

Although this will not in any long term affect the complete regeneration but the lingering chemistry may well be measurable for quite a while. Physical work to help remediate these areas is where any meaningful effort will be placed.

cheers fnq

Trader1

13-03-2009, 12:03 PM

Hi FNQCairns,
I don't see it as "chalk and cheese". It is the same event on a smaller scale. There will still be long term damage.

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 12:12 PM

No oils ain't oils, climate ain't climate, substrate ain't substrate, volume V area. there are far more differences than similarities between the two.

If you can can highlight what a specific long term impact will be, as related to this event and conditions that apply to it only, a comparison might be drawn better.

Interestingly what we are seeing largely NOW for the bulk and colour of the spill is sloughed of dead organisms and dead bio films/froth all wrapped up in the mix, effectively tons of microscopic bits and pieces..a soup so to speak.

cheers fnq

SummerTrance

13-03-2009, 12:33 PM

FNQ - Still your sitting there pushing the agenda that we should not be worried about this. And I dont see what you have to gain from this, except maybe to make yourself fell big and smart.
This spill is in our backyard, in the areas we fish and the beaches we visit. Stop telling us its nothing to worry about. I dont care if the ecosystem will have it all cleared in 6-12 months. Right now its a bloody big mess, that in my view is a dam shame!

Trader1

13-03-2009, 12:36 PM

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 12:40 PM

ST, Sheesh, I am not saying it's nothing to worry about I am and have been saying there is nothing physical can be done to reverse or change the course now. Now we have an balmy army heading to the islands to do more damage...where is your mindset I may ask?

Will caveat the freshwater reaches though, this area is for experienced and well controlled remediators, not a herd of cattle.

cheers fnq

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 12:47 PM

Hi FNQ, A quote from another scientist says: "Oil spills are a lot more damaging than people thought and, by implication, toxic pollution is a lot more threatening than people thought," said chemist Jeff Short, a key oil spill researcher at the U.S. government's Auke Bay Laboratory in Juneau."
reference http://dwb.adn.com/front/story/4534151p-4509987c.html

From what I am reading on overseas scientific research it is a major problem.

yeah you should hear what some scientist can say about the sun and it's potential harmful effects...half truths to propagate spin is where all this must go today, the reactionary will follow.

All has been covered already, need to keep at least one eye on this particular episode and all that it IS. BTW did you know the sun can implode! Now that's harmfull in any long term.

cheers fnq

Trader1

13-03-2009, 12:49 PM

The course can be changed by legislation. Such as No ship carrying oil or environmentally dangerous cargo can run within 50km of our coastline if the wind is more than say 40knots in strength. Legislation is the way to change the course that will stop future disasters.

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 12:56 PM

Trader i hope it happens, someone has already put forth the idea that if the shipping rules where not changed by the last federal government an aussie crew wouldn't have let this happen...I dunno but it is worth a ponder.

coucho

13-03-2009, 12:57 PM

trader comparing this to the Exxon Valdes is like comparing a ten cent bunger to herishema. plus exxon valdes was crude oil not light fuel oil and the climate was much colder which makes a huge difference to the breakdown of oil not to mention pure volume.
Yes it is an unfortunate inccident but its not the environmental catastophy that its being played up to be. Yes there is a mess there right now yes there will still be one there next week but in twelve months all visual signs of the spillage should be gone and the ecology of the area should be begining to return to normal.
I can understand everyone getting excited and upset it is a terrible thing but it has happened. Lets not make mountains from mole hills so to speak the area will recover and much quicker the the Exxon Valdez incedent which was a catastrophy.
On a different note I heard recently about a trawler fisherman who accidently spilt 10,000 litres of diesel into mooloolaba harbour some years back and that area has recovered. Then there was a semi cant remember what it was carrying but it crashed on the brunswick river bridge and spilled what ever it was carrying in the drink major incident same trumped up media circus then when it happened twelve months on the area had regenerated and started to recover now you would never know it happened

As for the talk of "what was the skipper doing heading into the cyclone" If it was me i would of done the same thing not a little boat the pacific adventurer chances are there would of been another 5 or 6 ships go straight through that cyclone and both the skipper and the ship probably been through a lot worse. Containers break loose and go over the side quiet frequently on ships it happens it was just bad luck that these ones where full of amonnium nitrate, one pearced the hull and it was right in front of moreton island.

TimiBoy

13-03-2009, 01:24 PM

As for the talk of "what was the skipper doing heading into the cyclone" If it was me i would of done the same thing not a little boat the pacific adventurer chances are there would of been another 5 or 6 ships go straight through that cyclone and both the skipper and the ship probably been through a lot worse. Containers break loose and go over the side quiet frequently on ships it happens it was just bad luck that these ones where full of amonnium nitrate, one pearced the hull and it was right in front of moreton island.

Too true. Ships tackle this sort of thing all the time. They also lose containers over the side often - that's why you take out Marine Insurance...

This is my backyard too, and I am upset. But it's important to remain objective on this, and FNQ is right on the money.

Tim

rando

13-03-2009, 02:21 PM

According to the paper i read fuel oil evaporates at a rate of 13% of volatile components over 3 months. As I said in an earlier reply even at double that rate it is 6months before 1/2 the more toxic ( read volatile)components have evaporated.
I dont know where you draw the line, FNQ, but for me, 12 months plus with environmentally damaging material all over the beaches is way too long.

I simple do not understand why you would continue espousing that view.
The material is not benign and will not be for a minimum of 12 months.
After which time recovery could proceed unimpeded.
Until the material is rendered benign by nature or removal it will continue to have an effect.

My speculations of yesterday have come to fruitition.
There is indeed a much larger spill than first reported, possibly more than 100tons, which puts it in the moderate spill category.

And it is affecting more of Moreton's previosly unaffected beaches,as well as Bribie and the North Coast beaches..
As i type this I can feel the beginnings of a NE seabreeze, If there is a rising tide as well we can expect oil to enter the " Bay"
I do not agree with you that this is "small potatoes", and I further disagree with the premise that letting, 'Nature take its course' is an appropriate response.
And I certainly dont think I am being histrionic in these views.

No, it's not of the order of ExxonV.... but no-one said it was.
What has been said by many is this will have a recognizable effect on the fishing environment .
I suspect it will take much more than twelve months for nature to repair.
Cheers
rando

lethal098

13-03-2009, 02:24 PM

i too am upset that this has happened, we can do as much as we like to try and prevent this sort of thing occuring, we all get in the car everyday and dont plan on crashing but how many accidents do we see every day. Accidents at sea occur every day we just dont hear about them until the media blows it up to something huge. As FNQ has said and i dare say is rightly qualified, within time it will clear. we all just need to be patient and let the powers that be do their thing and get it fixed. you would be blown away by the amount of time that people are wasting of the EPA's time in complaining about it. at the end of the day they will do everyhting possible to protect the environment but they can only do so much. i am not saying that they may not have done as mucas they could, but with the seas the way they were there was no possible way to stop it happening. Maybe we should be looking at why the containers have come off and get at the shipping company. IMHO cheers Lee

castlemaine

13-03-2009, 03:05 PM

Too true. Ships tackle this sort of thing all the time. They also lose containers over the side often - that's why you take out Marine Insurance...

This is my backyard too, and I am upset. But it's important to remain objective on this, and FNQ is right on the money.

Tim

Part of Mariner's code apparently, all that have cargo aboard, have to chip in for the one person who lost cargo. Had a mate in that circumstance.

The big picture I see is that there's not much we can do, accept wait for Mother Nature to to clean it up for us ... but ... we should be focusing on how this disaster could have been averted. That's what we should be tackling Local, State and Federal Governments on.

Should a vessel be not allowed in the vicinity in a storm, have an Australian pilot aboard, etc???

This stuffs fishing up for most us for how long? Yep I'm angry too. How many Moreton Island (Easter Holidays) has it stuffed up?

We're all on the money!

Cheers8-)

Ps Go the Cowboys ;)

PinHead

13-03-2009, 04:19 PM

why all the paranoia from the media..whatever damage there is has been done...nothing can be done about that now..just what method of clean up is to be used is all that matters...put a match to the stuff.

Dantren

13-03-2009, 04:35 PM

Did any local organisation have a contingency plan for an event such as this?

If so, I would be interested to read it.

Daryl McPhee

13-03-2009, 04:50 PM

mowerman

13-03-2009, 05:55 PM

Well done Daryl.

FNQ.
Im starting to see your point.

A US study done after 5 years from Exxon Valdez found the uncleaned areas where recovering their ecological balance at up to three times the rate of the cleaned areas.
Something to do with washing away the beneficial microbes and sterilizing the area when cleaned.

The head scientist wrote a book about it. Ill see if I can find a link.

But then again you have the aesthetic value and the tourist dollar.

And taking longer for ecological restoration will mean those nasty fishermen will have to wait longer to rape and pillage.

Rod.

Horse

13-03-2009, 06:03 PM

I saw a report a few years ago of authorities using human hair to absorb the oil.
Pack human air in a rope like form!!!
Wouldn't it be ideal to put these things out to absorb all the oil from the ocean b4 it hits land.

Oil will float on the surface. So naturally will be absorved. less oil, less damange.
Perhaps we should just chuck a whole lot of Greenies into the slicks. They are pretty hairy and might end up as part of the solution rather than the problem;D

PinHead

13-03-2009, 06:24 PM

when it originally happened..where were the booms? where were the detergent sprays? where was any form of response from the EPA..toal ineptitude from them in all respects.

disorderly

13-03-2009, 06:25 PM

Perhaps we should just chuck a whole lot of Greenies into the slicks. They are pretty hairy and might end up as part of the solution rather than the problem;D

Thats the funniest thing I have heard since it all started..nice one horse..;D;D

justjack

13-03-2009, 06:34 PM

well its sort of hard to say the oil has done the damage when it still continues to kill things... the oil is still moving... birds are still flying into it, turtles are still swimming into it, its still damaging stuff oh yeah and the ship also is still leaking oil, a 500m slick was released into the river today my mate got it all over his boat at the 4 beacons, its still moving so some of you say its to late now, so is it to late to stop the stuff moving, the tide pushes it up the beach killing whatever is in its path the next high tide picks it up and moves it further, your compairing spills that happened in completely different ecosystems i dont think we can even start to compare i know from past fuel spills ive seen washed up on the rocks at moreton its taken over a year for some animals to return to certain rock pools, we cant compare to other oil spills

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 06:56 PM

Hi all,

I spoke on the potential impacts of the oil spill on th ABC Country Hour today.

The link to the audio is here: http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/today.htm

I mentioned the impotence of the green zones to such impacts.

Daryl

Hey Daryl how come they reported this below? If it is correct can you elaborate as to why this would be the case...within this spill?

Quote: "Fisheries biologist Darryl McPhee agrees the oil spill will have a major impact on fishing grounds."

and did you mean impotence or importance??

cheers fnq

oldboot

13-03-2009, 06:58 PM

I note on the news tonight everybody trying to "out disaster" each other in an effort to seem concerned.

Don't they love those emotive words, disaster, crisis, protect.

cheers

BrewGuru

13-03-2009, 07:13 PM

Unbelievable the state government through a third party has delivered 32 artificial reefs to Moreton Island, thank you Mr Macnamara! Now I understand why the EPA took over the job from the DPI you guys have to do the washing up!

death_ship

13-03-2009, 07:14 PM

whats wrong with trying to limit the impact of the oil spill? i dont wanna take a can of degreaser to the beach with me. This stuff is gonna hang around for a while.

BrewGuru

13-03-2009, 07:20 PM

Question? how does a container ship lose over 200 tonnes or any other guestimate, of crude oil was it a tanker as well?

Daryl McPhee

13-03-2009, 07:38 PM

Hey FNQ,

Definately impotence and not importance.

There are four aspects to the incident as I see it. The first is the most visual one which is the oil. Along the beaches there will be impacts on the intertidal animals such as pippies, beachworms and ghost crabs. Some of the area affected is important to commercial and recreational beach wormers. There will be recovery of the fauna but it will take awhile. The impacts on the rocks of Cape Moreton itself will take much longer to clean off and the impacts on the intertidal fauna there will take much longer to recover. As it appears that all of the Cape has been affected and it is an area isolated from similar habitats, there is likely to be limited local settlement and recruitment to aid recovery, but it will recover.

The second is the loss of access due to safety reasons for the trawl fleet. The containers are believed to be lost over a large area from Point Cartright to Cape Moreton and will make offshore trawling dangerous. Once the weather clears, side scan sonar will no doubt be used to try and find them.

The third issue is the ammonium nitrate itself. Being in deepwater is a positive as it is below the photic (light) zone. However, if the stuff comes out, there is likely to be acute toxicity affects around the containers on benthic macroinvertebrates. The stuff will be distibuted by currents and there is the possibility of chronic affects but we do not know how far the plume will extend. Modelling may be difficult because it is on the bottom, for dispersion modelling standard measures of the East Australian Current strength will not be overly relevant.

The fourth issue is the washing of the ammonium on the boat (2 tonnes) further inshore in fairly oligotrophic (nutrient poor) water. This is where an algal or phytplankton bloom is likely.

Many of us stressed the need for a risk based approach in marine park planning rather than just one that micro-manages fisheries with neither the full suite of tools or expertise to do so.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Daryl

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 07:51 PM

Thankyou Daryl for the reply, I had trouble categorising your remarks and had hoped that they centred on the Ammonium portion of the spill.

I understand the conditions needed for a bloom require a very specific mix of concurrent conditions to exist , most if not all so called 'bad' blooms we hear about are not actually outside of natural variability out at sea.

Do you think we will actually see a real ridgee didge, man made bloom from this ammonium?

cheers fnq

GBC

13-03-2009, 07:52 PM

Did any local organisation have a contingency plan for an event such as this?

If so, I would be interested to read it.

QDOT are the principals for oil spill response in QLD - every other state it's AMSA - I'd like to see a report card from one of the AMSA guys who was on the deck of the Kurki for this 'little' mess.

Is it just me or did any one else notice that the ship involved is a bulk carrier, NOT a container ship. The containers were stored as deck cargo on the hatches. No doubt someone deemed this to be O.K.???

Finally, the master steamed into 40 odd knots and 6 odd metres of sea - not a big deal for a correctly rigged ship.

The cyclone was a long way away - This event was going to happen - cyclone or not.

One more thing - since when was 7 mile off Cape Moreton 200m deep?

It's sad to see that the horse has bolted, but given the conditions in which the initial event happened, I don't see that booms were any sort of option.

Brewguru - I think it was 30 tonne of bunkers(fuel oil)? Could be wrong too.

disorderly

13-03-2009, 08:05 PM

Question? how does a container ship lose over 200 tonnes or any other guestimate, of crude oil was it a tanker as well?

Here are the boats specs...it's not a tanker,just a bulk carrier...doubt there was any crude on board..

http://www.cnco.com.hk/upload/EN/fleet/challenger/MV_Pacific_Adventurer.pdf

Daryl McPhee

13-03-2009, 08:21 PM

FNQ,

I'm not sure mate, but the risk is certainly there. As you have identified there a range of factors that need to be aligned for the disturbance (elevated nutrients) to result in an impact (bloom). Previous coastal process and water quality modelling that I have seen has identified that where the 2 tonnes were washed over the side is in an area where blooms are likely if nutrients are increased.

Cheers,

Daryl

scorpion695

13-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Iam probably a bit late but the load came from newcastle and was coming to brisbane to be railed to north queensland as it was material to be used in the mining industry not that any body reallycares now.I still find it weird how you would drive into a cyclone intensionaly.

PADDLES

13-03-2009, 08:39 PM

Dantren

13-03-2009, 08:56 PM

Heard a report on the radio this arvo.

Apparently there was another spill in the brissy river this arvo - from the same vessel.

While at dock, the vessel was listing to one side.
During cleaning etc... the vessel was levelled & more oil spilled out the puncture in the hull.

Hard to believe??????

Ben D

13-03-2009, 08:59 PM

Hey FNQ,

Definately impotence and not importance.

There are four aspects to the incident as I see it. The first is the most visual one which is the oil. Along the beaches there will be impacts on the intertidal animals such as pippies, beachworms and ghost crabs. Some of the area affected is important to commercial and recreational beach wormers. There will be recovery of the fauna but it will take awhile. The impacts on the rocks of Cape Moreton itself will take much longer to clean off and the impacts on the intertidal fauna there will take much longer to recover. As it appears that all of the Cape has been affected and it is an area isolated from similar habitats, there is likely to be limited local settlement and recruitment to aid recovery, but it will recover.

I agree with Daryl, I think that the beach fishing on Moreton, top end of bribie and even further north will take a fair time to recover, especially for species such as whiting, dart and others that feed on beach worms, pippies and the miriad of other microscopic animals that live in the sand. If the food ain't there, the fish must go elsewhere or starve. Hard to see any of the beachworms or pipis surviving , and once the main oil pollution is removed or diluted, there will be more time required before larval recruitment recolonises the area. The problem is whenever you look at the scientific literature on the effects of hydrocarbons (crude oil and heavy fuel oils) on larval stages of fish and other aquatic animals, it becomes clear that there are huge problems with deformities (heart defects, skeletal deformities) and mortalities in early life history stages of a wide variety of taxa, from fish eggs, to larvae of all sorts of sea creatures. The larvae are highly susceptible to these toxic compounds. Further, those that survive are usually immunocompromised and long term exposures to hydrocarbons in sediments results in liver cancers in flatfish and other nasty side effects which are usually out of sight, out of mind.

So while it may only take a short time (weeks/months) for everything to start looking good again, I'm afraid that it may actually be many years before the ecosystems fully recover, as many of the chronic long term effects occur out of sight, out of mind.

On another note, interesting that the people of SE Queensland flagged this sort of event (pollution/oil spills) as the highest ranking threat to the Moreton bay Marine Park almost two years ago. Source: AC Neilsen Moreton Bay Marine Park Community Survey, March 2007. Poll conducted for EPA. Wonder whether they took that into account during the rezoning process.

Daryl McPhee

13-03-2009, 09:25 PM

Posting this press release for yout information.

The Australian Marine Conservation Society today applauded government agencies involved in the management of the shipping disaster which unfolded off South-east Queensland this week and proposed a new Moreton Bay Commissioner position within government to help protect the local area from future oil spill accidents.

Craig Bohm, Campaigns Director with the Australian Marine Conservation Society said, "We are impressed with the coordinated action by government agencies to the shipping disaster. While some concerns were raised about a possible lethargic response by government to the disaster, we now know that the main impediment to action was the weather and remote location of the oil spill on Moreton Island", Bohm added.

Hampered by strong winds from cyclone Hamish, authorities have worked hard in dangerous conditions to track the oil slick from the ship MV Pacific Adventurer as well as the fate of 31, six-metre cargo containers containing approximately 600t of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, which fell off the vessel into the Moreton Bay Marine Park when an expected freak wave hit the vessel two days ago.

Bohm continued, "We know that shipping accidents will continue to happen along our wild coastline and that the frequently of these may increase with climate change affecting the weather and shipping movements becoming more frequent."

"We now need to be ready for these accidents in a pro-active rather than re-active way. Being pro-active means maximizing the health of local wildlife to give them the best chance of survival when accidents like this occur in the future," Bohm added.

The Australian Marine Conservation Society has called on the Queensland to create a Moreton Bay Commissioner with the support of scientists from the University of Queensland and the Moreton Bay Seafood Industry Association.

"We must now develop effective measures that give the environment and wildlife the best chance of surviving these damaging incidents. A Moreton Bay Commissioner would be tasked with developing these measures and ensuring that we not only protect wildlife but local maritime jobs in the fishing and tourism industries in the process," Bohm concluded.

justjack

13-03-2009, 09:52 PM

yeah im not even going to say anything about that, ok how are they removing the oil from the island because im yet to know that, and how are they going to clean it up?

FNQCairns

13-03-2009, 09:54 PM

Ha cracker! thanks for that, so much executive slobber on Anna's ring finger! why would THEY bite the hand that puffs their bank accounts so very comfortably..we are an extrinsicly corrupt society. All business surrounding these radical environmental groups double so.

cheers fnq

Blueroo

13-03-2009, 11:17 PM

Bohm continued, "We know that shipping accidents will continue to happen along our wild coastline and that the frequently of these may increase with climate change affecting the weather and shipping movements becoming more frequent."

"We now need to be ready for these accidents in a pro-active rather than re-active way. Being pro-active means maximizing the health of local wildlife to give them the best chance of survival when accidents like this occur in the future," Bohm added.

The Australian Marine Conservation Society has called on the Queensland to create a Moreton Bay Commissioner with the support of scientists from the University of Queensland and the Moreton Bay Seafood Industry Association.The comments made by Bohm are deeply disturbing and amazing.

Para 1) He is saying there will be more of these so called "accidents" and will blame climate change for the increase in "accidents".

Para 2) Because we have been really slack and allowed these "accidents"to happen in the first place we need to be really good at covering them up.

Para 3) The AMCS have asked the Universty of Qld and the MBSIA to assist in the cover up. Hopefully they will say NO!!!!

Tell me I'm paranoid or is the AMCS using this disaster to further its political future and not being the supreme protector of marine creatures as it publicly portrays.

I could go on but it really is beneath me to put up with such dribble.
Make your own minds up, remembering, most of you, know more about the bay than these so called environmental experts.

Can you imagine what would have happened if this event had of occurred on the GREAT BARRIER REEF.

Are we the only ones concerned with such things.

It just goes to show this whole fishing zoning thing is a political ploy by those that covert power.

As a fisherman what I would like to see is :-
Real laws to actively dissuade shipping company's from screwing with our environment.
A national organisation that can respond immediately to environmental disasters and minimise the damage of environmental events. A major duty would be the coordination of local resources rather than their hindrance.

Stue

iceknight

14-03-2009, 12:51 AM

The oil is still leaking from the ship, according to the news and footage from a helicopter...

why doesnt every one get together and drive our boats to the port of bris and let our selfs be heard, im sure the media will back it,

seeing as there " not allowed to take footage or moreton ect atm of the clean up"

If we got enough people together im sure they wouldent hand out a few hundred fines for being too close?

just an idear,

PinHead

14-03-2009, 01:45 AM

yeah, it basically got a hole in it's fuel tank via a freak accident, it was not an oil tanker. pinhead, thre's no way that anyone could attempt to contain the spill in the weather at the time. i wouldn't even expect anyone to go out in those conditions.

OK..I understand then...perhaps they should be called the Calm Water EPA....we will sure need a lot of help if there is a decent oil spill or any other form of spill in the next cyclone that comes along. Perhaps they ought to invest in a decent vessel that can handle those conditions and deploy booms as well.

FNQCairns

14-03-2009, 02:15 AM

The comments made by Bohm are deeply disturbing and amazing.

Para 1) He is saying there will be more of these so called "accidents" and will blame climate change for the increase in "accidents".

Para 2) Because we have been really slack and allowed these "accidents"to happen in the first place we need to be really good at covering them up.

Para 3) The AMCS have asked the Universty of Qld and the MBSIA to assist in the cover up. Hopefully they will say NO!!!!

Tell me I'm paranoid or is the AMCS using this disaster to further its political future and not being the supreme protector of marine creatures as it publicly portrays.

I could go on but it really is beneath me to put up with such dribble.
Make your own minds up, remembering, most of you, know more about the bay than these so called environmental experts.

Can you imagine what would have happened if this event had of occurred on the GREAT BARRIER REEF.

Are we the only ones concerned with such things.

It just goes to show this whole fishing zoning thing is a political ploy by those that covert power.

As a fisherman what I would like to see is :-
Real laws to actively dissuade shipping company's from screwing with our environment.
A national organisation that can respond immediately to environmental disasters and minimise the damage of environmental events. A major duty would be the coordination of local resources rather than their hindrance.

Stue

Stue it is wacko beyond belief I do agree, but exactly what the labour party, their departments, employees and all their schizo conservationists (preservationist) brothers need to continue perpetrating the con.

Labour has done untold ethical damage over their time in office and very little of anything of substance environmentally has resulted, simply an industry to unjustly thieve common territory from all people forever and call it as conservation.

These groups like that above who have sprang up in their 10s to take advantage of the radical preservationist environment labor has fostered are in it for the money and power first, where now a new government means the heady days of these pigs at the con job trough may very well dry up as rational displaces this dysfunction.

Curiously,

The GBR has had a cat 4 Cyclone sitting directly over it's southern extent for multiple gross hours, with just a few feet or often less separating each, causing untold environmental carnage, simply laying waste to it, catastrophic organism loss, hundred year old structures crushed, green zone or no green zone it couldn't matter, yet not a mention of that as a catastrophe (no money in it),it will take 30-100 times longer for it visually recover than Moreton will.

Oil slicks are known natural environmental hazards too, ever since the carboniferous I surmise ( forget now, sounds good:)), this one just happens to be man made spill light in fraction. This would not by all sensible account be the first the sand island has seen.

I tell ya it's just plain discrimination :-X::):P

cheers fnq

catfishkid

14-03-2009, 08:05 AM

Stue it is wacko beyond belief I do agree, but exactly what the labour party, their departments, employees and all their schizo conservationists (preservationist) brothers need to continue perpetrating the con.

Labour has done untold ethical damage over their time in office and very little of anything of substance environmentally has resulted, simply an industry to unjustly thieve common territory from all people forever and call it as conservation.

These groups like that above who have sprang up in their 10s to take advantage of the radical preservationist environment labor has fostered are in it for the money and power first, where now a new government means the heady days of these pigs at the con job trough may very well dry up as rational displaces this dysfunction.

Curiously,

The GBR has had a cat 4 Cyclone sitting directly over it's southern extent for multiple gross hours, with just a few feet or often less separating each, causing untold environmental carnage, simply laying waste to it, catastrophic organism loss, hundred year old structures crushed, green zone or no green zone it couldn't matter, yet not a mention of that as a catastrophe (no money in it),it will take 30-100 times longer for it visually recover than Moreton will.

Oil slicks are known natural environmental hazards too, ever since the carboniferous I surmise ( forget now, sounds good:)), this one just happens to be man made spill light in fraction. This would not by all sensible account be the first the sand island has seen.

I tell ya it's just plain discrimination :-X::):P

cheers fnq

You are right that untold damage has been done to the GBR by a cat 4 cyclone but I fail to see how you can compare a natural occurance such as a cyclone to a PREVENTABLE oil and chemical spill?If the cyclone had continued south as a cat 4 and hit moreton island directly it would have done untold damage to to island and its surrounding ecosystems and that is a fact of nature.We would have been upset and it would have been sad but nature will do what it will do.I have seen footage of where a cyclone up north has torn through a mangrove forest and totally flattened it,it was a devastating thing to see.We accept it because it is nature at her worst.If a developer did the same thing we would all be very justifiably upset.There is no discrimination here,maybe you are looking for a bite and if thats all it is then :P :P :P ,if you seriously believe its discrimination then nothing anyone else says will be valid in your mind.
I have not commented on this thread previously regarding science and clean up as I dont know the science well enough to make an informed comment.
I will say that to have the ship in dock in the brisbane river and let oil spill without control measures in place is a disgrace to all involved.

Craig

FNQCairns

14-03-2009, 11:20 AM

You are right that untold damage has been done to the GBR by a cat 4 cyclone but I fail to see how you can compare a natural occurance such as a cyclone to a PREVENTABLE oil and chemical spill?If the cyclone had continued south as a cat 4 and hit moreton island directly it would have done untold damage to to island and its surrounding ecosystems and that is a fact of nature.We would have been upset and it would have been sad but nature will do what it will do.I have seen footage of where a cyclone up north has torn through a mangrove forest and totally flattened it,it was a devastating thing to see.We accept it because it is nature at her worst.If a developer did the same thing we would all be very justifiably upset.There is no discrimination here,maybe you are looking for a bite and if thats all it is then :P :P :P ,if you seriously believe its discrimination then nothing anyone else says will be valid in your mind.
I have not commented on this thread previously regarding science and clean up as I dont know the science well enough to make an informed comment.
I will say that to have the ship in dock in the brisbane river and let oil spill without control measures in place is a disgrace to all involved.

Craig

Yeah Craig you are right it cannot be the other way in any common reality. That last line was to show it was a little tongue in cheek.

The philosophy, I do find it interesting how a natural disaster is categorised, what if the oil was a natural event? would the zealot groups/government be silent on all this aftermath then? Would we even hear about it on the news? The cyclone on the GBR says no.

Suspect it's not all about environmental damage but about human nature, what value drama brings reward.

cheers fnq

Outsider1

14-03-2009, 11:49 AM

The "management" of this whole thing is just a total farce!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/14/2516277.htm?section=justin

Oil spill crisis multiplied tenfold

Posted 14 minutes ago
Updated 12 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348943_1596709.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348943_1596714.jpg) One fuel tank was ruptured on Wednesday when containers washed overboard. (AAP)

Video: Oil cleanup underway in Qld (News online) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348959_1596818.asx)
Video: Oil spill clean-up begins (ABC News) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348976_1596947.asx)
Audio: Queensland oil slick 'is carcinogenic' (AM) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/am/200903/20090314-sam-2-carcinogenic-slick.mp3)
Audio: The Qld Govt accuses shipping co. of lying (PM) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/pm/200903/20090313-PM3-.mp3)
Map: Brisbane 4000 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-27.4698&long=153.024&caption=Brisbane%204000)
Related Story: More damage found on oil slick ship (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/13/2516120.htm)
Related Story: Oil coming ashore for weeks, worse to come (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/13/2515652.htm)
Related Story: Heavy machinery hits Queensland beaches (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/13/2516018.htm)
Related Story: Oil slick damage worsens as massive clean-up continues (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/14/2516160.htm)
Related Story: 'Not safe' for volunteers to help with oil clean-up (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/14/2516168.htm)
Related Link: Photo Gallery: Leaked oil is coating beaches on Qld's Moreton Island and the Sunshine Coast. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/photos/2009/03/12/2514398.htm)
The Queensland Government says an oil spill along the state's south-east coast is 10 times worse than first thought.
It has also been confirmed that two of the Pacific Adventurer's fuel tanks were damaged in rough seas on Wednesday.
The oil spill was originally thought to have been about 20,000 litres, with one fuel tank damaged, but late yesterday the shipping company involved doubled that figure.
Queensland's Deputy Premier Paul Lucas has today confirmed the crisis is even worse.
"They originally told us 20 to 30 tonnes," he said.
"It is now apparent that it was about 230 tonnes."
Oil has caked about 60 kilometres of beaches along the coast.
Moreton Island - about 40 kilometres off Brisbane - is the worst affected.
About 350 workers are trying to remove the sludge but it is a slow process and most of it has to be done by hand to avoid further damage to the environment.
Moreton Island resident Amanda Graham says she does not understand how the container ship the Pacific Adventurer lost part of its load causing the disaster.
"The containers can't have been strapped down, they go through bigger seas than what we had," she said.
Most beaches on the Sunshine Coast are closed.

oldboot

14-03-2009, 12:38 PM

It is interesting to see some of the posts on the news forums.

This situation reald does raise quite a lot of questions.

One thing to consider.. that I do not think has been mentioned.. is that it is very difficult to assess the damage to a ship of that size from aboard it.

There could have been oil pissing out of the side and they would have no means of seeing short of dangling a bloke over the side by his anckles.

There probaly ( in hindsight) should have benn some attempt to inspect the ship early on by sending either a pilot vessel out a chopper out there.

I not that Anna Bligh was inspecting the damage aboard a television channel news chopper.....

I would have hoped there was some sort of heavy weather avation available to EPA / Marine authorities for inspection of such situations.

I would be interested to know exactly what resources are available for situation management and assessment in these cases.

It is well known that without the VMR we would have a very poor ability for search and rescue in the bay

What capacity has the government got?

Consider that the size of this spill is relativly small ( seriously) and the areas affected are reasonably easy to access.

How would we be able to cope with a significantly bigger spill in a less accessable and more sensitive place.... or have they just put that in the too hard basket.

I wonder how much surface barreir m equipment ( booms and such) exists and would we have enough to cope with a serious spill in moreton bay or would all the small creeks, major rivers and canals have to just cop it sweet.

cheers

rando

14-03-2009, 01:24 PM

CreelReaper

14-03-2009, 01:34 PM

This has been a great post in which to see so much emotion. There is no doubt that rec fishers are definitely part of the solution not the problem.

It does not matter whether this event is man made or not, the system and the environment will definitely bounce back.
As I see it we have all been bagging out the government and EPA on what we deem to be inadequacies in the system. Why haven't they been pro-active? Why did they allow this or not allow that? And so on and so on.....now these are all very good questions and must over time be answered.

What really gets up my nose is the fact that it happened. It was an accident but one which could have been easily avoided. I see the shipping company as being the ones at 'fault' here and that is where the serious questions should be aimed.

From a previous post........Bohm continued, "We know that shipping accidents will continue to happen along our wild coastline and that the frequently of these may increase with climate change affecting the weather and shipping movements becoming more frequent."
"We now need to be ready for these accidents in a pro-active rather than re-active way. Being pro-active means maximizing the health of local wildlife to give them the best chance of survival when accidents like this occur in the future," Bohm added.......

Now we all know this to be a load of absolute bunkim, but he is right in saying that accidents will continue to happen. It is a fact of life.
Lets look at the facts......
1/ cyclone bearing down on coast.
2/ captain of the ship is naturally in control of the vessel but not on his schedule. He has a time frame with which to deliver his cargo.
3/ How have the identified 'health and safety risks' been undertaken on cargo/ships to prevent loss/damage of cargo at sea??
4/ What has the company done to prevent this sort of 'accident' from happening.
As I see it the government and all agencies should have contingencies in place to 'clean up' after an event. In this case you can surmise that the initial response was deemed to not be of major significance. The latest reports indicate much more oil to have been lost.....10 times more. An error in judgement maybe, but a judgement based in the information at the time. (I'm not trying to justify it)
Money or greed has been the reason of this event happening. The shipping company are the real culprits in this and should be held accountable for all costs. The skipper was only doing his job as instructed. (I actually feel sorry for the person) It would have lost the company a whole heap of money to have delayed the delivery and even lost future trade.
I hope that the government looks at this and steps up it's power to enforce companies like this one to toe the line and supply 'safe' and 'accountable' work practices. I hope too that the fines to be of such magnitude that any business would look twice at trying to short cut the necessary processes to ensure this sort of accident does not happen.....
Cheers

Shane

Outsider1

14-03-2009, 01:45 PM

Is there anything we as individuals can do to help the cleanup.
I am quite happy to go over there and rake it into piles for the machinery to pick up.
They should let volunteers onto the beach, they would get thousands willing to help.
Time for action is past.

They seem to be restricting who is being exposed to this Rando, perhaps for good reasons!
Oil slick sludge is carcinogenic, authorities say

By Nicole Butler
Posted 4 hours 51 minutes ago
Updated 2 hours 11 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/news/img/2007/btn_editorspick_prev_26x16.png (javascript:slideshowPrev();) http://www.abc.net.au/news/img/2007/btn_editorspick_next_26x16.png (javascript:slideshowNext();) Slideshow: Photo 1 of 3
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r349047_1597370.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r349047_1597375.jpg) 'Just disgusting' ... The clean-up on Moreton Island, off Brisbane, is only just starting. (AAP: Tangalooma Wild Dolphin Resort)

Video: Oil cleanup underway in Qld (News online) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348959_1596818.asx)
Video: Oil spill clean-up begins (ABC News) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r348976_1596947.asx)
Audio: Queensland oil slick 'is carcinogenic' (AM) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/am/200903/20090314-sam-2-carcinogenic-slick.mp3)
Audio: The Qld Govt accuses shipping co. of lying (PM) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/pm/200903/20090313-PM3-.mp3)
Map: Brisbane 4000 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-27.4698&long=153.024&caption=Brisbane%204000)
Related Story: More damage found on oil slick ship (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/13/2516120.htm)
Related Story: Oil coming ashore for weeks, worse to come (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/13/2515652.htm)
Related Story: Heavy machinery hits Queensland beaches (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/13/2516018.htm)
Related Story: Oil slick damage worsens as massive clean-up continues (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/14/2516160.htm)
Related Story: 'Not safe' for volunteers to help with oil clean-up (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/14/2516168.htm)
Related Link: Photo Gallery: Leaked oil is coating beaches on Qld's Moreton Island and the Sunshine Coast. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/photos/2009/03/12/2514398.htm)

Authorities have warned the toxic sludge coming from the cargo ship Pacific Adventurer is carcinogenic and it is melting the soles off people's shoes.
The oil spill that started on Wednesday off Moreton Island now covers around 60 kilometres of south-east Queensland's coast.
ABC Radio's AM program has been told swimmers on the Sunshine Coast have reported a burning sensation after being in the water.
Andrew Ryan from the Local Disaster Management Group says most beaches in that region have had to be closed because the oil slick is nasty stuff.
"Look, the last [update] I think we've got from Queensland Health is that it's actually not a particularly good, nice oil," he said.
"What we've got is a safety data check that tells us all the precautions in terms of clean up, or getting on your skin ... basically it says 'don't get it on your skin'.
"So all of our crews we've had helping in the clean up are doing it manually.
"We've kitted them out with full overalls and gloves and goggles, etc.
"So it's a substance you certainly don't want to be touching with your bare skin."
In fact, Mr Ryan says he has been advised the oil slick is carcinogenic.
He says the dangers associated with the oil slick is the reason the number of volunteers have been limited, despite the massive scale of the disaster.
"I guess in general we're not looking for people to come on down because of that fact," he said.
Earlier Maritime Safety Queensland said it is not safe for volunteers to be handling the oil (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/14/2516168.htm).
Yesterday it was revealed about 100,000 litres of heavy oil may have leaked from the Pacific Adventurer - five times the original estimate.
But the cargo ship also lost a toxic load, with 31 containers of ammonium nitrate tumbling into the sea.
Government denials

Deputy Premier Paul Lucas denies claims the Government has been keeping volunteers away as part of a cover-up.
He says it is commonsense to get the experts in, particularly as all oils are carcinogenic.
"It's fuel oil from a ship. It's no different from any other fuel oil, it's a petroleum product," he said.
"We don't want volunteers touching it because what happened then is you get skin irritation, you get fumes and the like.
"This is standard oil that is cleaned up. There's nothing unusual or funny about it on all my advice."
When asked about the claims that the oil is burning soles off people's shoes and causing burning sensations, Mr Lucas responded indifferently.
"I walked on it yesterday and my shoes are fine and I've not had any burning sensations," he said.
Queensland's Opposition Leader Lawrence Springborg is more cynical.
He says the Government is perpetuating a major public health risk and the crisis has gone from bad to worse because of Labor's stuff-ups and cover-ups.
"Not only was the Government slow to respond, but now we hear that this particular spill is particularly dangerous and there is concern that it's carcinogenic," he said.
"There is grave concern that it is also corroding the soles off the boots of those people that are actually out there trying to clean it up.
"And the other issue which is been brought to my attention is because of the dangerous nature of this particular oil, that those who are involved in trying to clean it up need level two breathing apparatus.
"Yet only two days ago, this Labor Government was telling us that it was only a light spill and they were going to send 12 people out with buckets and shovels and rakes."

chief

14-03-2009, 02:54 PM

Unbelievable, I can't stop thinking how they've worked so hard to protect the bay against the recreational fishing vandals, and this is allowed to happen.Then to bring this leaking mess into our estuary system and chance another disaster. Did I hear correctly that the company involved would be fined 1.5 million dollars. the price of one riverfront property. Now thats what I call a deal.

seatime

14-03-2009, 05:40 PM

http://www.amsa.gov.au/Marine_Environment_Protection/National_Plan

http://www.amsa.gov.au/Publications/Fact_sheets/National_Plan_Fact_Sheet.pdf

Mike Delisser

14-03-2009, 10:32 PM

I would have hoped there was some sort of heavy weather avation available to EPA / Marine authorities for inspection of such situations.

What capacity has the government got?

cheers

I'm not sure if there is anything available locally that can safely head low level into cat 3 or 4 cyclones, if there was I think I would've had it searching for the 2 fisherman missing 200km off Rocky. That search was susspended a couple of times because of the conditions.

sleepygreg

15-03-2009, 02:49 AM

PinHead

15-03-2009, 05:14 AM

Just as an aside....and not related to this discussion ( i think)...I was astounded to hear that Qld does not have a Police Helicopter. Because the current government does not think it is warranted!!! And continues to say this in the election campaign.....FFS...I would have thought with the size of our state...and the sparsness of the population densities...and long response times by road...an easily mobilised air wing would be an essential part of our policing (not to mention emergency responses). I used to think it was a bit tongue in cheek the comment about moving to queensland and turning your clock back 1 hour and 15 years......but geeees....we are giving them fuel for the fire.

Greg

Greg, they do not have a designated Police air wing..but they do have a Govt air wing comprising some small jets. Not sure how many. DES has helicopters and these can be seconded by the police where necessary. That makes more sense to me than having Police choppers and DES choppers etc etc..we would then have choppers sitting around costing us a fortune in duplication..and we have enough of that already.

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 08:26 AM

I am well sick of nothing but old file footage shown on TV over and over and over, I bet if what it is right now was the worst we ever saw on TV all this drama would have been but a small percentage and pretty silly.

When are they going to show what it is now, nothing but crystal clear water upon all shores, funky beach looking more like a bit too much seaweed washed up and in truth none the worse for it now into the future outside of zealotry anyway.....

cheers fnq

hooknose

15-03-2009, 11:01 AM

You would reckon our illustrious Federal Environment Minister, labours Peter Garrett would have been a little bit interested in this, pity he is to busy playing rockstar to give a sh%t( even though the bushfires are a good cause)>:(

Bowser

15-03-2009, 11:16 AM

FNQ and others who are saying this is no real problem and that we are getting het up over a minor mishap may or may not be right but my main concern is the politicization or the Electoral Protection Agency by Bligh and it’s use as an instrument to provide longevity to this government. The things that concern me are about the apparent lack of reaction and indifference of the relevant authorities, particularly by that Bligh person and her EPA.

Why did it take 2 days or more to realise the threat presented by the oil slick? Perhaps because being on the water with no threat of falling objects Anna couldn’t wear her hard hat and get her picture taken in another useless political stunt!
If this ship is so sea worthy that a cat 4 cyclone was no threat, why was it bought into a MNP leaking oil and not either sent back to its port of origin in its superb seaworthy state or held at sea until its bunkers were emptied or restored to remove the possibilities of further oils spills, which eventually happened? Of course you can’t fish in the bay but you can run a ship with a large gash in its partially full bunkers through it with the blessing of the EPA. The only rule of the sea that says you couldn’t implement these measures were if the ship was unseaworthy and in danger of sinking or of possible loss of life. It appears that this was not the case. If it was that bad why where we still sitting around thumb in bum mind in neutral and not seeing a rush of sea going tugs racing there to salvage the ship and save the lives of those poor sailors in mortal danger?
Where is the state governments super dooper oil containment nets? Of course they are preventing that huge oil spill under the Storey Bridge that is so significant that they are held rotting under lock and key.
Why is Bligh and the EPA only concerned about the visual aspect of the slick? The rats of the sea, pelicans covered with oil? What about the effect on the unseen sea life, such as the pipis, worms, crabs etc? They don’t get the media coverage and become tear jerker’s and won’t get any votes so they don’t matter.
Why aren’t the EPA out there providing reams of relevant information about the effects of this spill en masse for the public? We need to resort to our own numbers on forums such as this to get some sort of info. Oh of course, silly me, we are stupid, ignorant fisherman and don’t matter.
When did the real figures for the volume of the oil spill come to the attention of the EPA? I suspect that it was a lot sooner then we have been lead to believe.
Where was the instant springing into action of our oil containment measures? They don’t exist, the EPA is not there to protect the environment only Bligh’s electoral ambitions.
I rarely agree with Bob Brown but listened to an interview that he did on Friday on ABC radio and he asked similar questions. Can someone provide a true answer? I doubt it because no-one is going to say that we have seen an abuse of political power and recalcitrance by a moribund government.

Oh and I hope that the next spill of 200 or 2000 or 20000 tonnes of oil occurs on your marine patio next time FNQ. I will gleefully await your diminution of the effects and of the cause for concern in your posts espousing calm and cool do nothing reactions.

Yes I am blatantly politically biased against this government and I am proud to say so. I have watched as my state has been run into the ground by an incompetent, grasping, bunch of morons and nothing being down to maintain the status quo, let alone improve, our hospitals, water, road and educational infrastructure and resources. The actions of Bligh and the EPA are the last straw that has converted a conservative non protesting voter into an angry and belligerent anti Bligh campaigner! The other guys might not be tried and tested but at least the aren’t a repeat of didn’t try and failed that the Bligh Government is! We can easily overcome the budget deficit, just withdraw the money wasted by Bligh and her ministers on political, sorry non-political, advertising. Cripes with that we could have our own stimulus package. They know that there is a lot deeper S..t to come and have raced headlong into this election before it comes out as they know that they are no chance once it does!!!!!!!!

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 11:52 AM

rando

15-03-2009, 01:24 PM

FNQ
I suspect you are having a stir.

rando

15-03-2009, 01:30 PM

They have an aerial spraying capacity here that I have seen regularly spray for mosquitoes down around the wetlands.
It should not have been too had to deliver some dispersant,while it was still at sea. I sure the two oil refineries would have a stock pile somewhere for contingencies.

Bowser

15-03-2009, 01:48 PM

Yawn...

cheers fnq

The reaction one would expect from a Labor stooge. When asked to supply real answers or consider real issues you go to sleep or resort to ridicule, lies and deception as Bligh and the labor party have done. You are great at supplying BS and spin but can't handle honesty.

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 02:14 PM

The reaction one would expect from a Labor stooge. When asked to supply real answers or consider real issues you go to sleep or resort to ridicule, lies and deception as Bligh and the labor party have done. You are great at supplying BS and spin but can't handle honesty.

You seen my past posts on labor? I have ripped it up them for their pathetic wasted and ideological management of the state, I have even on the forum previous stated I am voting for the LNP.

I simply try real hard to not allow the 'chooks with their heads cut off' to influence what facts are present at any time on any subject, then go from there.

cheers fnq

Bowser

15-03-2009, 02:51 PM

You seen my past posts on labor? I have ripped it up them for their pathetic wasted and ideological management of the state, I have even on the forum previous stated I am voting for the LNP.

I simply try real hard to not allow the 'chooks with their heads cut off' to influence what facts are present at any time on any subject, then go from there.

cheers fnq

Please forgive my cynacism but if this is the case why the sarcasm? I have read your posts and your attampts to place some science on this matter. I haven't questioned this as, unfortunately, I don't know your qualifications and don't have the science background to confirm or deny these, I am asking why the delays and obfuscation that has surrounded the government and the EPA in this matter.

I have lived and fished in both NQ and the SE as well as the western rivers and I know the hysteria that would surround an incident anywhere near this magnatude happening near any of the FNQ reef areas. The effect that this has on what is a small area with very little structure is significant. When you place this on top of taking away a huge proportion of our fish taking areas you are going to get a major reaction. It happens in your neck of the woods and there is still a dozen reefs or creeks within reasonable proximity that are open to you. We have a department that has been superimposed on already efficient well performing departments for what can only be politcal purposes requires outcry and condemnation.

Either answer the questions, agree or repudiate the sentiment or step out of the debate.

TimiBoy

15-03-2009, 03:06 PM

Without defending FNQ (he's a big boy, he can do that himself), I believe he's a little ticked at the lack of support they received from Brisbane based fishos when the GBR was being tied up by the watermelons.

Contrast that with the way we are screaming like stuck pigs over Moreton Bay, and he probably has some justification in having a poke at us.

I can't wait for SOBA to move up the Coast...

Cheers,

Tim

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 04:23 PM

Please forgive my cynacism but if this is the case why the sarcasm? I have read your posts and your attampts to place some science on this matter. I haven't questioned this as, unfortunately, I don't know your qualifications and don't have the science background to confirm or deny these, I am asking why the delays and obfuscation that has surrounded the government and the EPA in this matter.

I have lived and fished in both NQ and the SE as well as the western rivers and I know the hysteria that would surround an incident anywhere near this magnatude happening near any of the FNQ reef areas. The effect that this has on what is a small area with very little structure is significant. When you place this on top of taking away a huge proportion of our fish taking areas you are going to get a major reaction. It happens in your neck of the woods and there is still a dozen reefs or creeks within reasonable proximity that are open to you. We have a department that has been superimposed on already efficient well performing departments for what can only be politcal purposes requires outcry and condemnation.

Either answer the questions, agree or repudiate the sentiment or step out of the debate.

I try real hard to keep science out of comment here all the time, jargon is great but useless mostly, I try and relate it differently, no one pays me for stuff like this anymore and I am at near 8 years out of the industry hence too I rap my relies out, luckily we know nothing more today of substance than then, outside of the most technical ticks anyway.

I can only go over what i knew in real time till now.

The oil was a light oil, already boiled (cracked)at the refinery from it's heavier and far more environmental damaging components.

Then the spill was 30T, now the spill is 100T approx, would rather hear that figure from an independent though.

The oil travelled FAST all the while churning due to the same reason it travelled fast.

The oil along the way also picked up and combined the dead sloughed off particulate matter from trillions of dead sea living organisms for example cyanobacteria.

Only the lightest and hence the most oily fractions made it to the high strand line and has no interest in soaking in to any depth, all else was partially oxidised and physicaly processed oil that was now full of gross organic matter...hence the colour and hence it's affinity with keeping the colour of the water black.

Literally Tonnes of organic matter eg coloured foams is blown onto a beach front by conditions that where in evidence those days - all of this was combined with whatever oil was there also.

I watched vision of ghost crabs burrowing up and through the highest strand lines. Business as usual for them ATM.

So over all IMO the delay was entirely correct at the time of the delay, try mobilising any effort to trap the oil when there was a 30kn wind and oil that was only 7km offshore?? and in those conditions and for only 30T of this type of oil.

The oil quantity has increased since, there was simply no human way to lessen it's impact on any surface of the island at any time...except now by cleaning it away which will over all account for much more than cleaning the patio, less so now than when it was 30T though, if the patio is chipped under the mess it will still be chipped after it's cleaned away...the damage is done, none of it of it is truly active now for a good while or on a killing spree.

Fair dinkum, in 2 weeks a person can fish the beach and catch whiting (even now!!) and it will not be a toxic feed, the dead areas will be very well seeded from the great expanse up flow and the juxtaposed areas on the beach which did not reach toxic levels.

All the self absorbed environmental boffin organisations including Gov departments and CRCs and Zealot conservation groups are lining up for the millions of dollars on offer, by expounding technical ticks in the media, like "there will be microscopic balls of tar still in the sand" and "oil is carcinogenic" "the effects will linger for years" "fish stocks will be affected" and so many others, again a technical tick, but easy to drive a wedge of reality through if you understand some of the science behind why they would even consider that comment.

I am not in the industry so I am not bound by continued bank account inputs to slide my comments off the side of candid, as I see it is my opinion...I have no applied oil slick on Moreton Island environmental credentials, neither does any one else.

Honest up until the 100T and still a bit since I dunno what the fuss has been, dead is dead, the environment will rebound to where the layman will not notice any difference and it will do it fast...only the technical tick guys will still be making a noise all for personal gain in one way or another.

What huge amount of fish taking areas?? the slick has and will only continue to impact the foreshore...outside of technical ticks that is.

cheers fnq

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 04:35 PM

Tim no not really, the GBR green zones where never a win-able battle, they where created for political reasons only, no chance back then of anything making a difference in that real time, differences where made since by the AFLP and thank goodness one single win means you blokes will not see criminal charges result from your green zones, the precedent was taken away.

You blokes should have helped out better on the great sandy straights green zones though.

cheers fnq

hkconc

15-03-2009, 04:41 PM

this excersise profes that they are not prepared for such a disaster like this. The oil only washed up un the sand and racks, what plans would have been in place if was near the barrier reef.
It just shows that no one monitors these toxic monsters. The govenment should have been aware of the speed and direction the so called experianced captian was steering the ship, and ordered that he return to port, and not even left in the first place when they all knew a cyclone was thundering down the coast.

disorderly

15-03-2009, 06:22 PM

PinHead

15-03-2009, 06:24 PM

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 06:45 PM

Nice work FNQ...very well read despite one of the most over sensationalized incidents I have ever witnessed...even saw today where the "Sunday Mail" was saying that the annual winter whale migration may be affected...fair dinkum ::):-/...

Anyway back to far more important matters...

Does anyone have any nude photo's of Pauline without the fuzzy stuff covering her boobs...???;);D;D...

Scott

Amazing!! What people will swallow these days, I heard a real doozy too just cannot think of it ATM but I do remember one bloke saying little bits of the oil was being blown over the dunes into the scrub just behind ...so he was worried about the environmental effect of that ::):-[;D

BTW I have seen some new vision of affected areas today it's looking as it should by now...almost perfectly clean right up to the mean high water mark on the rocks.

cheers fnq

disorderly

15-03-2009, 07:09 PM

LOL omg Scott..you need some professional help I think.

Call me a sick puppie if you must ,Greg..

But I think she is a little hottie...and I still want to see the uncensored photo's..;D

TimiBoy

15-03-2009, 08:04 PM

FNQ, Disorderly,

I must come up there and let you guys take me fishing. Do I have an invite? Might be a few months, have to let my hair grow back...

We'll tie it in with a SOBA road trip. Must make the trip deductable!!!

Cheers Boys, keep smiling.

I'm amazed (not) at the pics on the news tonight of cleaned up beaches that are already getting back to normal. Some work left to do, but hardly a world threatening disaster.

Cheers,

Tim

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 08:45 PM

Yeah Tim come up! consider organiseing a trip to take in this weekend http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=144720.

I cannot seriously promise a trip out with me, it has already been almost 3 months since my last outing and that was on someone else's boat to fish his honey hole although I am open to it, the trade winds over winter keep all but the biggest rec boats at home often.

I am going to try to make Cardwell but will know better when much closer.

cheers fnq

rando

15-03-2009, 09:08 PM

FNQ

Your assertion that this stuff was inert by the time it came ashore is contrary to the information I googled.
My info says a lesser spill of less than 1000lt would have only lost 13% of its volatile components after 3 months.
If that is the case, then this "bunker oil" would have 80%+ of its toxic components.
What are you basing your ,position on?

In a previous post you referrred to this as "
(quote)
The oil was a light oil, already boiled (cracked)at the refinery from it's heavier and far more environmental damaging components. (unquote)

Bunker oil is in fact the residual oil from the refinery (after the petrol, naptha ,kerosene diesel,etc has been distilled) mixed with sufficient diesel to make it less viscous so as to be manageable, and is in large part, that very product you described " the heavier more damaging components"

Based on that point alone the rest of what you have said would then also be ,,,wrong.

FNQCairns

15-03-2009, 09:57 PM

Rando have you heard for sure whether it is bunker or diesel? I have heard both reported, diesel was the latest and looked to be the spill in the river on TV.

The conditions that existed at the time of the spill is the reasoning + trying to relate that the oil that made the shore couldn't be related to the original oil that spilled. The oil went through a hundred thousand mixing events before reaching shore, all the while in salt water and gathering biological remains and oils from the multitude of organisms both dead and alive on the ocean surface and within.

By inert I meant relative to what we think oil is, I should have place relatively in front each time I guess, map out 2 transects spray one bucket of the pure substance over it and in the other spray what actually made it up the shore...the pure transect will show total death the processed oil transect will not, just like the ghost crabs burrowing back up from right underneath blankets of the substance.

The information you have given is exactly why the Exon valdez spill was a true disaster, the oil simply didn't have the process or conditions to separate or oxidise the fractions, a person could have scooped it up and used it days after the indecent, no chance of doing that to the Moreton oil shore oil it was but a mere memory of what it was,largely a mix of the reduced parts and gross organic matter. I wouldnt consider eating it though.

cheers fnq

oldboot

15-03-2009, 10:05 PM

The words inert and toxic are probably both inappropriate in this situation.

And remember google isn't the peak of science nor are most sites unbiased.

This is bunker oil... it is basicly similar to distilate mixed with sump oil.

The distilate ( the worst part ) part will be will be no more toxic than what comes out of the pump, it isnt a good idea to work with youir hands in it, but lots of people do, it is no more toxic than any other hydrocarbon solvent.

This portion will mostly evaporate ( not as quickly as petrol) or be absorbed and broken down in the water.
There will be a portion of this in the the remaining sludge.

The remaining sludge will be very similar to sump oil that comes out of a car with a cooling leak to the oil system.
An uggly brown black frothey BLURK that deflates with time as the water and remaining solvent evaporates out of it.
Sump oil is most certainly considered a toxic waste, but plenty of people get it all over their hands on a daily basis and more that a few home mechanics ( and a ferw pros) have ended up with this stuff all over them.

So lets get a handle on the concept of toxic........it too is a sensationalised word.

Salt is officialy toxic, in fact it is the measure by which all other substances are measured........

It is quite possible to argue that beer is more toxic than the black gunge.

:idea:
I wonder what the implications of a 60 000 litre spill of beer would have on the environment.

Think about the implications if those 32 containers were in fact full of kegs of beer.
The containers would all foat, because beer is lighter than water and as the containers broke down, beer kegs would pop to the surface ( containers are mild steel and kegs are stanless with plastic seals) causing an umpordictable navigation hazard for decades.

Then there would have been a much higher tocisity because they would certainly be "one of those southern brews".

cheers

rando

15-03-2009, 10:30 PM

FNQ/OLDBOOT

I am pretty sure I heard the maritime safety officer refer to it as Medium Fuel Oil.
Below is the table of fuel oil types, I used as a point of reference

MGO (Marine gasoil) - roughly equivalent to No. 2 fuel oil, made from distillate only
MDO (Marine diesel oil) - A blend of gasoil and heavy fuel oil
IFO (Intermediate fuel oil) A blend of gasoil and heavy fuel oil, with less gasoil than marine diesel oil
MFO (Medium fuel oil) - A blend of gasoil and heavy fuel oil, with less gasoil than intermediate fuel oil
HFO (Heavy fuel oil) - Pure or nearly pure residual oil, roughly equivalent to No. 6 fuel oilOldboot
I am no scientist and agree that google isnt the be all and end all . But you can find good stuff there.
go to the report I tended a few pages back, some interesting reading, not to mention photos of some horrific fuel spills.
Cheers

oldboot

15-03-2009, 11:30 PM

There is heaps of stuff out there to read and you have posted lots of words.

I am trying to explain thing in terms of stuff that most people would be familiar with, none of the specifications of marine fuels mean a damn thing to most people.

The point being, myself and others have been trying to point out that while this incident is serious and damaging.

It is not the disaster that many people are trying to beat it up into, it is big, smely and uggly, buy most of all highly visable.

What it isn't is a highly poisonous long term damaging thing that will have a significant effect on the environment over a long period.

In fact in the terms of environmentaly damaging activities, this causes a relativly low amountnof damage.

neither the oil nor the furtiliser will poison plants fish or effect their edibility, to the extent of many othere things that go on all the time and go un noticed.

This is relativly clean filth, with little or no poisonous or dangerous biological content.

I would be more concerned about the recent sewage spill in cannery creek or the damage caused by the port development to the tidal flow or the acres of seagrass dredged up for the airport development or the acres of mangrove that have been cleared to make canal estates or the heavy metals and organophosphtes that will continue to be washed down our creeks and rivers as a result of bad practices in the 60's and 70's.

Or for that matter being jabbed by a discarded syringe on the local beach or playground.

cheers

rando

16-03-2009, 12:12 AM

FNQCairns

16-03-2009, 08:10 AM

And i am arguing the opposite.
Without excessive hyperbole.
To the best of my knowledge the oil is MFO, medium fuel oil, which I gave a description of & which description i found by searching... "fuel oils " / marine.

It is in a nutshell residual oil from the refining process and deisel. More of the former less of the latter.
As such it has a slower rate of biological breakdown and higher toxicity.
Despite the rough water and high winds, which would have assisted in evaporating the more volatile components the slick came ashore within 24 hours of the initial spill.
Studies have shown this type of oil will have 13% of its volatile components decay after 3 months.
Further though the spill is not of the order of the bulk carrier breaking up, or the damaging nature of a crude oil spill it is nevertheless categorized as a moderate sized spill ( according to the oil industries own parameters)
And I believe it will have moderately long term effects.
Principally because the damage that has occurred is at the bottom of the food chain,and we are coming into autumn/winter where micro-organism activity is slowing down.

Thanks for nailing the type of oil Rando, the media really needs to get solid points like that right then stick with it. From what you say Moreton was truly lucky for the conditions that where in evidence with an oil of that weight.

I do have trouble relating the 13% volatile decay after 3 months to this particular spill in all that it is, I would suspect that it relates to a specific surface area for volume, specific temperature and sitting unmixed as per most standards are reached in the laboratory.

We all know how fast a bucket of water spilt on concrete will evaporate compared to the water in the bucket only. The violent natural churning process the fuel oil went through adds again to this dramaticly. If the spill was in the dead of winter on calm water but still made the shore in the same time the situation would be now be a horrible environmental mess.

The ghost crabs speak a thousand words and was an enlightening few seconds of vision to see, they copped the blackest of the black directly above them via multiple soakings from the highest of tide waves, yet there was never enough volatile fraction in it to cause death.

I am now very interested to hear just how many of the volume of bi-valves where killed I suspect no where like the bulk of them they are well versed at buttoning up to wait an unpleasant situation out, I surmise this only due to what this oil must have become by the time it touched shore.

I suspect the deaths (environmental damage) may fairly easily be categorised by phylum, in 2 weeks I would dearly love to walk the entire foreshore and go for a snorkel even.

cheers fnq

Scalem

16-03-2009, 06:33 PM

Let's see now ..... Based on an average of the number of bags we've been goin through the last couple of days, I would say we had better order more, what do you think Jonny?

Can't believe running out of bags at 11.00am today. .... :-/

Scalem

TimiBoy

16-03-2009, 07:24 PM

I'm going to postulate that this is entirely, completely, and utterly the fault of the Premier's office.

The Professional Fishos have asked the EPA several times to develop contingency plans for this sort of thing. Their risk assessments rightly show this to be a major risk to their livelihoods.

The EPA would like to do something about it. So what do they have to do? Go to the Premier's Office to get the OK and the funding.

The Premier thinks about it, and decides it's not something he/she wants to spend money on, so it gets the kybosh.

Premier's fault. That's how the EPA works, and think about it. If they had been asked to, and it's in their brief - there's just no way they would not have wanted to do this. It has Peter/Anna stink all over it.

Cheers,

Tim

justjack

16-03-2009, 09:19 PM

its not like bags are hard to get how long could it take to get garrbage bags common, and i cant beleive that the spill has gone from 30 tonne to over 250 tonne bit of difference there, in all the publicity did anyone see one EPA officer cleaning up? all i saw were main roads blokes

PADDLES

17-03-2009, 07:13 AM

they can't have been main roads blokes mate, they simply don't work

4x4frog

17-03-2009, 07:36 AM

If there was reports of a few of us Ausfishers in a Green exclusion zone, they'd be on us before we had the anchor set.
This situation just gets more pitiful by the minute. Problem is, there are enough stupid Labor stallwarts who will vote this mob of geese back in again:'(

disorderly

17-03-2009, 07:54 AM

they can't have been main roads blokes mate, they simply don't work

Thats simply not true...

Generally one bloke works and the other 7 stand by and supervise...;);D

PADDLES

17-03-2009, 10:05 AM

i stand corrected ................ :P

sleepygreg

19-03-2009, 01:25 AM

FNQ....let me know when we can say..."I told ya so".

FNQCairns

19-03-2009, 09:03 AM

LOL Greg, most definitely earlier on, it was an easy one, since then the quantity has increased by almost as much as 7x. It's good they are cleaning as much of the stranded oil as they can, it may not make any true difference over time but it was too much to leave in consience.

I hope that in a month the thought of the spill doesn't stop anyone from heading over and treating the place and the fish caught as any different than they would have before the spill....it will do nothing but pander to the radical elements in scaremongering for money so often heard in all media.

We probably will eat a restaurant feed this next 2 weeks, I am under no illusion it will be placing my family and me in a position far more potentially dangerous than eating a feed of fish caught anywhere over there as a result of this entire incident.

cheers fnq

rando

19-03-2009, 09:26 AM

Greg/FNQ

So IF there is a notable effect over the coming months you two will no doubt retract the "I told ya" And eat a big fat helping of "pardon me I got that wrong";D

FNQCairns

19-03-2009, 09:42 AM

Yeah for sure Rando, if the facts change in any real time but be advised I am not very tolerant of technical ticks or half truths - with the exception of just the absolute minority of claims, these today make up the entirety of the environmental industry's way of sourcing further funding and their preconceived PETA style end result/s very often....not to mention executive and managerial pay packets that grossly abound under every environmental flag.

The pendulum today doesn't even make it to the half way mark before heading back these days...more fool us.

cheers fnq

oldboot

19-03-2009, 10:16 AM

Greg/FNQ

So IF there is a notable effect over the coming months you two will no doubt retract the "I told ya" And eat a big fat helping of "pardon me I got that wrong";D

How about you mate.

When we find out that apart from an expensive clean up of a very big uggly mess there has been little long tern harm done are you going to be eating crow.

news last night.... cute little turtles flapping down the beach......ahhhhh.

news a coulple of nights back..... decky on a prawn trawler......look at them prawns......... no oil in them.......nothing on the nets either.

the containers are so deep... the Navy are still looking for em......

So what are they going to do when they find em......in 200m of water......is pulling them up going to be worth it.

.. some pin head ( not our beloved ) said ...." they could have floated 200Km"

cheers

Mayney

19-03-2009, 10:19 AM

We cancelled out trip to Moreton this week but received a report that they were catching good whiting and flathead on the western beaches.

We have re-booked for July

rando

19-03-2009, 09:07 PM

Oldboot
Ive been married for near twenty years. Ive been force fed humble pie :argue:that often Ive grown to love it.

oldboot

19-03-2009, 11:45 PM

I feel your pain brother..;) .... at least we only expect you to eat crow when you are actualy wrong;D .

cheers

sleepygreg

22-03-2009, 09:07 PM

Rando,

I have absolutely NO problems admitting when I am wrong.....When I was in corporate life one of the 'criticisms' I used to cop was apologising for stuffing up before I was found out, and admitting I was wrong when if I had have said nothing no one would have known. Which is why I rarely if ever comment on anything unless I am confident I am right.

Lets wait a couple of months and we shall review the situation.....bearing in mind there will probably be some ugly stains on the rocks way above high water for some time yet...but they will have no bearing on the environment except looking ugly for a bit longer than usual.

I also am used to a steady diet of humble pie on the domestic front. Whether right or wrong ;)

I will also, like FNQ, only believe 'credible' sources, and these do not include any greeen or (unfortunatel) our beloved EPA. I will however believe the true users of the areas...which for our discussion purposes are the ausfishers who fish in and travel to those areas on a regular basis.

Cheers and Beers

Greg

TimiBoy

23-03-2009, 06:04 AM

I have absolutely NO problems admitting when I am wrong.....When I was in corporate life one of the 'criticisms' I used to cop was apologising for stuffing up before I was found out, and admitting I was wrong when if I had have said nothing no one would have known.

Isn't it funny Greg that those are not good qualities in senior Management? I'm the same. After many years with the Corporates, I bought a bobcat. Much happier working for myself, but the ar$eholes are still out there...

Cheers,

Tim

sleepygreg

24-03-2009, 10:56 PM

Yeah Tim....and I was one rung below top dog...in a MAJOR player in the Hardware Industry....which no longer exists because of a corporate takeover. Im sure most of you can figure out which one. I left them after 17 years, to open up a tackle shop, couldnt handle the double standards and expected cover-ups of incompetent people promoted beyond their abilities to keep them out of the frontline. Similar scenarios exist in our public service.....as can be evidenced in some of the actions and statements from some high profile public servants. Major arse covering used instead of admitting mistakes and correcting them...or even worse...looking for someone else to blame for your own mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.....thats human. I remember a post game quote form the great Jack Gibson....i think it was about Andrew Ettingshausen...when a journo questioned the number of mistakes he made during the game....and jack drily replied...'yeah..he did make some mistakes....he also scored two tries and made lots of try saving tackles....at least he was doing something, I would rather that than a player afraid to do anything in case he made a mistake'. I aint perfect...but I will always have a go...admit when im wrong and try to fix it....then get on with life.

Greg