battery question

[SCOTTYGC]

i noticed one of my batteries was flat
took it out to charge , added a little distilled water put it on my charger

now all but one of the cells it bubbling away and read ok with the hydrometer

is this holding a charge or do all of them need to be working?

should i get gid of it and get a new one?

thanks in advance

scotty

[ThePinkPanther]

Mate, you have "dropped" a cell by the sound of and the battery is stuffed!

A real "country butchers method" of proving this is too whack a big screwdriver across the terminals - if the suspect one doesn't erupt in bubbles, that will prove it but I think taking it to the local battery guy who can do a proper load-test on it might be a bit more sophisticated though less spectacular!

Quite commonly, the voltage output from the battery can still show around 12V and that muddies the water a bit and makes you think it is OK.

In fact, when you hit the starter, this cell will collapse completely and most likely you won't get a start!

[oldboot]

Slashing a screwdriver across battery terminals can be a short cut to hospital.... strongly disadvise this particularly on a bigger battery.

It does however sound like you have droped a cell.

the best thing is to test it with a tong tester ( I mean a tong tester not a current clamp), This will load the battery and give you a voltage reading, usulay expressed with a good, bad, uggly marks on the scale....these days they have battery clips rather than tong probes..... they arent all that dear thes days.

failing that hook it up to crank and measure the terminal voltage while cranking and compare whith a known good similar battery.

How old is it?

If it is over 5 years old you have done very well out of it.....take it to be recycled and buy a new one.

cheers

[kokomo]

need a new one buddy

[SCOTTYGC]

old battery is now at the battery shaop and new one purchased

not sure how old it was as it came with the boat

thanks

[oldboot]

Ahhhh happiness is a new battery;D

cheers

[cormorant]

Many new batteries don't make the specs they quote. Get the shop to properly charge and test it before it is fitted. Many marine alternators on outboards are pretty average and will never fully charge a battery from scratch. They may never charge battery styles they weren't designed to charge properly / safely.

Have recently helped a mate who purchased new batteries and the amount of charging these required was silly to get fully charged. In a boat they would never have got it. Returned one as it was not coming up to voltage spec nor the acid density of other cells.

Too important with marine batteries to check prodction date when you buy as a stale battery will always underperform. Get what you pay for and remember the differences between marine cranking amps and Cold Cranking amps.

[SCOTTYGC]

its a sea master brand so both are now the same

the new one went on the charger before i fitted it and it has a charge indercator on it

it wa ony on the charger 10 minutes before it was fully charged

comes with a 12 month warrenty

so should be ok if i check it more regular than before


scotty

[oldboot]

Many new batteries don't make the specs they quote. Get the shop to properly charge and test it before it is fitted. Many marine alternators on outboards are pretty average and will never fully charge a battery from scratch. They may never charge battery styles they weren't designed to charge properly / safely.

Have recently helped a mate who purchased new batteries and the amount of charging these required was silly to get fully charged. In a boat they would never have got it. Returned one as it was not coming up to voltage spec nor the acid density of other cells.

Too important with marine batteries to check prodction date when you buy as a stale battery will always underperform. Get what you pay for and remember the differences between marine cranking amps and Cold Cranking amps.

I think there are three problems here.

1. stale batteries that have not been looked after in storage.....if a battery isn't at pretty near full charge at time of purchase I would not wish to have that battery........lead acid batteries do not like to be left at a low state of chsrge for an extend period......another good reason to purchase batteries from a source that turns over stock quickly.

2. so many of our boats do not run their motors for sufficient time to charge a battery......how many boats out there would get less than 1 hour run time everytime they go out......then they get out only every couple of weeks.....even a modern car with the correct battery and significantly larger charging capacity would have problems under these conditions.

3. how many people have purchased a coppy of the service manual specific for their motor and have installed the recommended size of battery.

for my motor to charge my battery from half flat ( as flat as you want a lead acid battery to go) would take about 3 hours of runing above idle.

How many small rigs get 3 hours running on an outing...I would get about 5 maybe 6 hours on a tank.

My car would do the same job on the same battery in about a hour

I do not think it is fair to say most outboard charging systems CAN NOT charge a battery to full charge.....I think it is more about how we use our boats.

how much current does your charging system deliver? and what is the capacity of your battery?

In my view these are important things to know.

cheers

[QF3 MROCP]

old battery is now at the battery shaop and new one purchased

not sure how old it was as it came with the boat

thanks

On behalf of ALL the VMR's and Coast Guards... thank you

One less jump start call out or tow job

[dazza]

Many new batteries don't make the specs they quote. Get the shop to properly charge and test it before it is fitted. Many marine alternators on outboards are pretty average and will never fully charge a battery from scratch. They may never charge battery styles they weren't designed to charge properly / safely.

hi cormorant,
would this explain why my new marine pro 400 never seems fully charged?? have taken it back, they have charged loaded and tested etc all OK, luckily the 40hp 4st honda dosent take much to start (can easily pull start if needed). i was getting up the kids for turning lights etc on, now I am a bit more vigilant and turn the islator switch off.

would sticking it on the charger every so often solve the problem??

have been wondering if i have an alternator problem or something, previous battery was a marine pro 400 and i got about 7 years out of it.
probably run the motor for at least 3 hours per trip

cheers
dazza

[oldboot]

I sugest you need to assertain the charging conditions.

does your sounder have ability to display a voltage reading.....you should be able to see the voltage rise after cranking.

The general expectations and understanding of outboard charging systems is soo poor that many people do not know if the charging system is working at all.

My young brotherinlaw ran his boat oblivious to the fact his charging system was stuffed for many years....it wasn't till I did some tests and baught the manual that we knew for certain the regulator was pffhT ssspT broken.

if you have access to a volt meter and a decent charger you should be able to do some observations.

cheers

[dazza]

I sugest you need to assertain the charging conditions.

does your sounder have ability to display a voltage reading.....you should be able to see the voltage rise after cranking.

The general expectations and understanding of outboard charging systems is soo poor that many people do not know if the charging system is working at all.


cheers
oldboot,

how do i go about assertaining charging conditions?

no my sounder hasn't got volt display,

you are spot on about understanding charging systems, i turn key and she goes, that is about the sum total of my knowledge
but in saying that electronics etc are not my area of expertise, putting broken humans back together is.
i guess i need to get a multimeter, when motor cranks volts should drop, once running should be putting out about 12 volts??
am i on the right track
cheers
dazza

[cormorant]

hi cormorant,
would this explain why my new marine pro 400 never seems fully charged?? have taken it back, they have charged loaded and tested etc all OK, luckily the 40hp 4st honda dosent take much to start (can easily pull start if needed). i was getting up the kids for turning lights etc on, now I am a bit more vigilant and turn the islator switch off.

would sticking it on the charger every so often solve the problem??

have been wondering if i have an alternator problem or something, previous battery was a marine pro 400 and i got about 7 years out of it.
probably run the motor for at least 3 hours per trip

cheers
dazza


Mate if you have a quality charger it would be good idea if you want a battery to last it's full life expectancy to keep it fully charged as much as possible but not overcharge it. Having a largish battery and a smallish alternator is Ok as long as the alternator has the ability to charge the battery but use of accessories on a larger battery and a small charging system may mean it never has a chance to fully charge a battery. This also means the motors alternator is running flat tack all the time. The more promptly after discharge a battery it is fully recharged the better it is for it.

Mates who troll a lot have had issues a sat idle speeds the outboard alternators on some are pathetic and with sounders etc running they have had constant battery issues.
\

Dazza the voltage purt out by voltage reg should ( check your manual or internet) be more likely up to 13.6v to 14.4 v but always more than 12 on the charge circuit

[oldboot]

Crude and rude summary of voltage observation.

The battery voltage is nominaly 12 volts DC

A healthy fully charged battery at rest.....( been sitting doing nothing for at least half an hour) should be arround 12 to 12.5 volts... maybe a little more.

Any battery below 12 volts is in a discharged state......

many argue that it is best to not allow a battery to get below 11.5 volts resting

A battery should not be allowed to get below 10.5 volts resting... very flat not good for the battery.

Batteries may be charged with voltages from 12.8 Volts (ish) up to 15 volts.

It is accepted that 13.8 volts is the best long term charging voltage, bleow that charging will be slow above that and there is (some) risk of overcharging in the long term.
It is reasonable to charge a battery at 13.8 volts indefinitely.

15 volts is considered the maximum safe voltage for rapid charging, but batteries should not be left at this voltage for extened periods or unsupervised.

Now under heavy load ( cranking) the terminal voltage may drop quite low.....depending on battery, size, condition and how heavy the load is......anywhere as low as 8 volts but often arround 9-10-11 volts.


so typical observations

charge the battery under observation using a standard charger till the electrolite gasses freely...you can see and hear this.

measure the terminal voltage while on charge ( could be confusing with a clever charger)

Rest the battery for at least an hour.

measure the voltage

crank the motor and observe the voltage while cranking

allow the motor to start.

measure and observe the voltage over the next 10 minutes

after cranking stops the voltage should increase immediately back to a " normal state" ( 12 volts ish) and then steadily increase to the charging voltage of the motor problay between 13.5 and 14.5 volts.

cheers

[Robbo_Townsville]

Was reading the "12V Bible for Boats" the other day and the author suggested the following:

12.2V 50% to 75% charged
12.4V 75% to 100% charged
12.6V 100%

These figures are while the battery is at rest.

Cheers
Robbo

[dazza]

hi guy's
thanks heaps for the info, might go down to a battery shop and get a decent charger and stick the battery on every month
anything i need to look out for when buying a battery charger??
i guess i need to take the specs of the battery/ies i want to charge so i can match them up???

scotty
why do your simple questions end up so complicated
have to catch up for a fish soon mate

cheers
dazza

[snasman]

Mate one of the best types currently on the market for a reasonabe price is a ctek charger there are several different types that go up in price as they do different tasks the one I would recommend is the xs 800 it is only a maintance charger ,so its no good if you were to leave something on and drain your battery completely in this case you will need something bigger and more expensive it is also only for lead acid type batteries, it monitors the charge and when the battery is fully charged it will switch its self off and if left for a period of time and the battery drains it turns itself back on, (about $80) a $20 cheap charger will do the job but you must not forget about it other wise it can boil the battery dry and destroy it, another good type that I only know a little about is the redarc but it is usually a fair bit dearer I believe. If this has baffeled you feel free to P.M me.

[oldboot]

There are plenty of decent multistage chargers arround and many of them are reasonabley priced.

A good multi stage charger should rapidly charge the battery then reduce current and voltage to a slower rate an one or a number of steps.
There are some funky ones that have battery conditioning functions of one type or another.

You should be able to leave a battery on a good multistage charger indefinitely.

What you should look for is a charger with a maximum charge rate of at least 1/10 the amp hour rating of your battery if you expect it to charge a battery from flat.

consider the most common marine battery is 90 amp hour and there are many 120 amp hour units in use.

something rated 10 to 15 amps would be a good choice.

you could go as low as 5 amps but it wont bring the battery up to charge as fast as is considered ideal.

places to look
repco
jaycar
marine suppliers.

cheers

[dazza]

hi guy's
thanks for the info
i am having difficulty finding specs for the battery in the tinney, it is a century marine pro 400.
the only specs i can find say it is 430amp cranking power, max charge 14.5v
is amp and amp hour the same thing???
need to pull one of the batteries out of the big boat as the writing is on the other side>:(>:( to see if it has any specs on it. they are exrider vx 27
want the charger to do the tinney and the haines 680

looking at a ctek charger that is suited to batteries 1.2-120 Amp Hour:-/ but need to find out what amp hour the batteries are
MODEL MULTI XS 3600
Input voltage AC 170-260VAC, 50-60Hz
Output voltage Nominal: 12V
Efficiency 85%
Charging voltage 14.4V/0.8A, 14.4V/3.6A, 14.7V/3.6A
Charging current 3.6A max
Back current drain* 1.3mA
Ripple** max 50mV rms, 0.13A
Ambient temperature -20°C to +50°C, output power is reduced automatically at higher temperatures.
Type of charger Four step, fully automatic switch mode with pulse maintenance.
Type of batteries 12V lead-acid batteries (Wet, MF, AGM and GEL)
Battery capacity 1.2 -120Ah Dimensions (L x W x H) 165x61x38mm Insulation IP 65 (splash and dust proof), outdoor use Weight 0.5kg
am i on the right track?
cheers
dazza

[MyWay]

scotyygc
U did right think getting new battery .
babbling cells it not sight of faulty cell .The best way to check is just take to battery mob to check it.

If alternator on boats or car could do same jobs as battery charger we will never buy battery . Yeah may in 10yers ones .
All alternator do only surface charge which very quickly goes away .
You may ask you self why than marine battery runs all day sounder and GPS and some lights and all thinks on boat and dose not go fleet . They are the best power storage's of all batteries on market .

The best way to keep battery in good condition is to have hook up on one of xs 800 battery conditioners what sansman was talking about.
You will improve battery life and good think thay can be hook up to battery for 12mounts will not demidge your battery and will be ready when you ready to go fishing .
But still you my have to replace battery again in few years as all batteries got they life if you look after them it may last 4 years or if not only it will last warranty life .

Boat battery is same as your battery on your mobile phone
if you charge phone by car charger (the think you plug in power point in your car) it will last few hours but when you get home and plug home charge and liver over night will last way much longer .


New battery can daed same as old ones most comen problem with new battery to daed is if one of welds inside snaps off .Making it battery open circuit . Open circuit battery when you check thay look good. It got all 12.6v is there but ones you putt load (starter motor )voltage drop off to under 2v.
All manufacturers of batteries trying to do the best is possible for Marine batteries as thay most one what suffering discharge and flogging at sea

myway

[2manylures]

Dazza, I'd be inclined to go for an EPS over the C-TEK simply because if you decide down the track to run Gel batteries the EPS will do both whereas the C-TEK won't.

Here's a link and the tech dept is excellent and will put you on the right track.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/battery-chargers-12v-battery-chargers-c-154_247.html

Good luck!

[SCOTTYGC]

hi guy's
thanks heaps for the info, might go down to a battery shop and get a decent charger and stick the battery on every month
anything i need to look out for when buying a battery charger??
i guess i need to take the specs of the battery/ies i want to charge so i can match them up???

scotty
why do your simple questions end up so complicated
have to catch up for a fish soon mate

cheers
dazza


my question was sorted in the first couple of replys

i got a battery charger of a guy in brisbane off ebay

cost a bit but works great on all my batterys (some acid type and a deep cycle type)

mate if ya ever got a spot on a weekend let me know

scotty

[oldboot]

scotyygc
U did right think getting new battery .
babbling cells it not sight of faulty cell .The best way to check is just take to battery mob to check it.

If alternator on boats or car could do same jobs as battery charger we will never buy battery . Yeah may in 10yers ones .
All alternator do only surface charge which very quickly goes away .
You may ask you self why than marine battery runs all day sounder and GPS and some lights and all thinks on boat and dose not go fleet . They are the best power storage's of all batteries on market .

The best way to keep battery in good condition is to have hook up on one of xs 800 battery conditioners what sansman was talking about.
You will improve battery life and good think thay can be hook up to battery for 12mounts will not demidge your battery and will be ready when you ready to go fishing .
But still you my have to replace battery again in few years as all batteries got they life if you look after them it may last 4 years or if not only it will last warranty life .

Boat battery is same as your battery on your mobile phone
if you charge phone by car charger (the think you plug in power point in your car) it will last few hours but when you get home and plug home charge and liver over night will last way much longer .


New battery can daed same as old ones most comen problem with new battery to daed is if one of welds inside snaps off .Making it battery open circuit . Open circuit battery when you check thay look good. It got all 12.6v is there but ones you putt load (starter motor )voltage drop off to under 2v.
All manufacturers of batteries trying to do the best is possible for Marine batteries as thay most one what suffering discharge and flogging at sea

myway

Sorry mate but most of what you have posted is not right.

If you have a battery and all but one of the cells is gassing freely under charge OR only one of the cells is gassing freely.......there is a major problem with the battery...all cells of a healthy battery should behave more or less the same, both by observation, measurement of voltage and measurement of specific gravity.
Any cell that is significantly inconsistent whith the others is most likley unwell.


Lead acid batteries have a limited and relativly short life....to put it bluntly there is no way arround this... no mater what charger you use.
The design life span of a lead acid battery is 2 years, it is reasonable to get 5 years out of a battery if it is well cared for 7 years is exceptional, for the sort of batteries we are talking about 10 years is nothing more than a dream.
I have consistently got 5 to 7 years out of batteries in my cars.

This concept of surface charge is simply incorrect... charge is a result of current flow voltage causes current flow it is that simple......there is a whole pile of hokus pokus going arround about charging lead acid batteries..... but the physics remains the same....if the charging system is adequate for the battery it will charge it.

Marine batteries are near ( certainly not the top) the top of the heap for lead acid technology but they are a very long way from the best power storage technology available.

yes a modern multistage charger or even better one with a maintenance or antisulphation function is a good idea and yes you can leave a battery on one of these chargers indefinitely...........but they wont perform miricles and they are unlikly to give you better battery life than a properly maintaned and regularly used car or boat charging system.

The lead acid battery in your car or boat is nothing like the battery in your current or recent mobile phone......the charging systems for lead acid batteries are nothing like those used in mobile phones......the materials and technology simply aren't related........there is no comparison.

I think welds breaking inside large scale lead acid batteries is very unlikly...yes this does happen in dry batteries typiclay found in hand held or portable electronics.....But I havnt heard of it in lead acid.

cheers

[pontificator]

and don't make any sparks while battery is gassing (hydrogen) freely :-)

and unlike me, wear safety glasses and other protective clothing.

Well, being half blind I always wear glasses, but thinking about this, will now get a cheapy set of largeish safety glasses and put them adjecent to charger etc