High speed v Low speed for bottom bashing

[Fisher4life]

Planning on getting a new daiwa saltist for reds and trout up here in NQ on the barrier reef, and have now got to choose either high speed or normal speed.

From what i can see high speed would have benefits of getting the line up quick from the bottom (obviously) which would help when trout fishing getting them up out of the reef to begin with and then also up through the sharkies in mid water....

However never using a high speed reel in deep water before the question i pose, does the high speed make it harder work to bring up a big red or even a few lead sinkers

My guess it mainly comes up to personal opinion, so what are your opinions??

Cheers
Josh

[finding_time]

Josh

Been there and made the wrong decissions before! For bottom bashing always choose normal speed around 4.1 to 1 .If you think a 6 to 1 ratio will allow you to get a red past a shark you like i was are mistaken. They are just uncomfortable to use. I had an avet 6.1 that i though would be great for bottom bashing ,WRONG it's terrible and is sitting on a shelf atm. If you want to beat the sharks on the reef there is only one way to go and this doesn't garantee success at all but there better than any other option get a reef king or queen deck winch!! I'm not even sure that a high speed reel is all that good for jigging again under heavy drag once the fish is caught there very unconfortable to use!

I have 3 x 6 to 1 alutecnos reels for trolling and this is where 6 to 1 is fantastic as i'm only using 8 kg line and so drag pressures are never high but the 6 to 1 is great for clearing the spread fast and when the boat is backing down on a fish quickly it is easier to keep up!!

Ian

[reggy]

i put a set of carbontex drag washers, greased with Cal`s reel and drag grease and a Cal`s top plate in a Torium 6.2:1 reel.filled the spool with 50pound braid and went to the Swain`s reef for 7 days and had the best trip in my life.

When bringing in a fish, use the pump and wind method, pulling the fish up with the rod and gathering line on the down stroke of the rod. this way, it doesn`t matter how high your gear ratio is.the higher the gear ratio, the bigger the main gear is, this means a bigger drag washer diameter, resulting in a higher max drag .
Using pump and wind takes the strain off the gears and the angler and most of the strain is on the anti reverse dog and drag.

If you don`t use high speed reels as a winch, you will get to love them.

[finding_time]

When bringing in a fish, use the pump and wind method, pulling the fish up with the rod and gathering line on the down stroke of the rod. this way, it doesn`t matter how high your gear ratio is.the higher the gear ratio, .


Now why didn't i think of that!!::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I reckon i've tried every technique possible ,i reckon a 6 to 1 will always feel bloody terrible compared to a 4 to 1 whilsted trying to pull a big fish off the bottom , pumping and winding will only end up high sticking your rod when trying to lever a big red or trout from the bottom imho! Your generally doing a whole series of short pump and winds which is easier with a 4 to 1 rather than large pump and winds that you need with the 6 to 1! Why do you tghink they have a low gear on game reels? It's for when the fish is deep and your just trying to get it up!;)

Ian

If you want a 6 to 1 though i got an Avet for sale!


Ian

[Fisher4life]

Yeah thanks for that Ian... the reel i'm currently using is 4.1, and i haven't really had any probs with speed so far other then a few half fish and a few buried trout.

Thanks also reggy, the ppl i'v spoken to all have mixed opinions, fewer wind to get the fish to the surface but work harder, or more winds and a little easier..??

[TimiBoy]

I like my 6.2, but only because it's quick to bring up empty hooks...

Me? Catch fish? Big ones? You've got to be joking.

Funny enough the only good fish I've ever caught, 4 @ 8.5 Kg, (looking to beat that number) were all caught on TLD's or Tyrnos. Oh, and a 6Kg Snapper on Wags' plastics kit.

Cheers,

Tim

[banshee]

I tend to agree with Ian,my mate has the Saltist 40 high speed and although I've only used it on one trip I found it a dog of a thing to use,though it was managable while playing a fish the dramas came when bringing up unbaited rigs (something you do a lot more off) with every rig (3/4lbs to 1lbs of lead in 80 metres) needing the pump and wind method all the way to the surface.I suppose a pined gimbal belt and appropriate rod butt would eleviate the chronic sideways roll a bit but there would still be that feedback to contend with.Interestingly the Trinidad 30 I have doesn't present the same problems,this could be attributed to the smaller size spool radius,I don't know.

[reggy]

Now why didn't i think of that!!::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I reckon i've tried every technique possible ,i reckon a 6 to 1 will always feel bloody terrible compared to a 4 to 1 whilsted trying to pull a big fish off the bottom , pumping and winding will only end up high sticking your rod when trying to lever a big red or trout from the bottom imho! Your generally doing a whole series of short pump and winds which is easier with a 4 to 1 rather than large pump and winds that you need with the 6 to 1! Why do you tghink they have a low gear on game reels? It's for when the fish is deep and your just trying to get it up!;)

Ian

If you want a 6 to 1 though i got an Avet for sale!


Ian
Why do i think they have low gear on game reels?

Sorry mate, I thought we were talking reef fishing here;) and WHY do you need to do longer pump and winds with a 6:1 than you do with a lower gear ratio?

[finding_time]

Sorry mate, I thought we were talking reef fishing here;) and WHY do you need to do longer pump and winds with a 6:1 than you do with a lower gear ratio?

Think about what your doing when your pumping and winding, you lift the rod and wind the handle right?;) Not quite your always trying to get in one full revolution of the handle returning it to a spot just past the vertical ( Eg 2 oclock)so when you go to pump and wind the next revolution your basically starting with the reel handle where you will be pushing down and away , you can apply the most force this way. If using a 6 to 1 you will have to recover more line to do this eg larger pumps on the rod!;) Trying to recover line with little jerky , 1/2 , 1/3 or 1/4 turn is terribly uncomfortable.

What's if got to do with game fishing , well not much but i was trying to point out that when battling big fish down deep a high gear is bad , but the above winding technique is from heavy tackle game fishing and believe me when your using 20 kg of drag on a BIG fish down deep you have to have the pump and wind very well or you will burn yourself out long before the fish is!


Ian

[reggy]

Ian
I don`t find little jerky 1/4, 1/2,or 1/3 turns uncomfortable at all.
I guess it works for some and not for others, I can understand that.
Happy fishing mate! whichever method you employ.
Reggy

[1lastcast]

Mate go for the lower gear ratio for bottom bashing high speed reels are not designed for lifting big fish from the deep they are better suited for spinning where high speed comes into its own .

Using high speed reels for bottom bashing will wear the reel out faster saying that using the pump and wind is fine but believe me if your using snapper leads in deep water you will end up holding the rod and turning the reel anyway because your arms will soon get sore , so as an example on a recent trip bottom bashing i had a 20000stella 4.4-1 and a 10000stella 5.7-1 after half an hour of winding up after stolen baits with the 10000stella i had sore arms so i went to the 20000 stella and just crancked it up all day no worries .

The best way is to take both a high speed and low speed reel out and try for yourself if you dont have a high speed see if you can borrow one , you will see what i mean .

Regards MONOSTRETCHO

[reggy]

Mate go for the lower gear ratio for bottom bashing high speed reels are not designed for lifting big fish from the deep they are better suited for spinning where high speed comes into its own .

Using high speed reels for bottom bashing will wear the reel out faster saying that using the pump and wind is fine but believe me if your using snapper leads in deep water you will end up holding the rod and turning the reel anyway because your arms will soon get sore , so as an example on a recent trip bottom bashing i had a 20000stella 4.4-1 and a 10000stella 5.7-1 after half an hour of winding up after stolen baits with the 10000stella i had sore arms so i went to the 20000 stella and just crancked it up all day no worries .

The best way is to take both a high speed and low speed reel out and try for yourself if you dont have a high speed see if you can borrow one , you will see what i mean .

Regards MONOSTRETCHO
If you like winching your fish up, why not get an Alvey deck winch and you can forget about the rod.

[1lastcast]

reggy i dont recall saying i ( winch fish up ) i reffered to winding up without a fish after a bait has been donated .

Sometimes if the pickers are around and you are fishing all day you are winding up without fish more often than not ( i dont normaly get a big fish for every drop ) im not as good as some !

And i still maintain that the lower the ratio the better for deep water , in close (24`s ) this is not the case ratio is less important when bottom fishing in shallower water.

And im not realy into jerking but thats just me !

anyway i used a alvey deck winch once and it was pretty good but not realy my style .

THE ULTIMATE IN BOTTOM BASHING REELS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

regards MONOSTRETCHO

[metaloid]

For bottom bashing always choose normal speed around 4.1 to 1 .I have a slightly different take on high-speed vs. low-speed for bottom-bashing.

First of all, I don't use egg-beaters for bottom bashing, so for me the debate is purely between overhead reels. Also, I only use braid, so I don't have to worry about winding mono under too much pressure. And lastly I use good size reels that comfortably double-up as winches as far as retrieving a bait (no fish) is concerned.;D

Given all that, I don't pump at all (no fish, remember, just the sinker weight), I just lower the rod tip as much as possible and go for a steady retrieve. I find that high-speed reels are a real time-saver when you've just lost your bait and want to put one back in the same drift.

Then when fighting a good size fish, I always pump and never use the reel as a winch, so low-speed vs. high-speed is irrelevant for me.

Now I stress that this is not a universal opinion, it's based on my experience with bottom-bashing for perlies, snapper, cobes, samson, etc in up to 100m of water in SE Queensland. I don't get a 10Kg coral trout every drop :(, so I don't pretend that this is valid for your situation in NQ, but I just thought I'd give my two cents.

[Fisher4life]

I have a slightly different take on high-speed vs. low-speed for bottom-bashing.

First of all, I don't use egg-beaters for bottom bashing, so for me the debate is purely between overhead reels. Also, I only use braid, so I don't have to worry about winding mono under too much pressure. And lastly I use good size reels that comfortably double-up as winches as far as retrieving a bait (no fish) is concerned.;D

Given all that, I don't pump at all (no fish, remember, just the sinker weight), I just lower the rod tip as much as possible and go for a steady retrieve. I find that high-speed reels are a real time-saver when you've just lost your bait and want to put one back in the same drift.

Then when fighting a good size fish, I always pump and never use the reel as a winch, so low-speed vs. high-speed is irrelevant for me.

Now I stress that this is not a universal opinion, it's based on my experience with bottom-bashing for perlies, snapper, cobes, samson, etc in up to 100m of water in SE Queensland. I don't get a 10Kg coral trout every drop :(, so I don't pretend that this is valid for your situation in NQ, but I just thought I'd give my two cents.


thanks for your opinion....

i originally bought the TLD25 for snapper and pearlies fishing in 100mtr when i lived in SE QLD and the level drag was excellent for that purpose, however the newer technology in reels means that there are stronger reels that can still hold 3-400mtr of line that will make fishing a little easier on the arms...

When you say that you generally use bigger reels, what sort of reels are you referring to or what is your reel of choice?

Cheers
Josh

[metaloid]

When you say that you generally use bigger reels, what sort of reels are you referring to or what is your reel of choice?I have used the Daiwa SL 450H (low speed), Daiwa LD50H, the Shimano TSM4, the Penn 114H and now the Penn TRQ200.

The advantage of a bigger reel (eg. Penn 6/0 vs. Shimano TSM4) is that you retrieve the same amount of line per crank with a lower ratio, so basically you get the best of both worlds: high-speed + torque. Of course bigger means heavier too.

I have heard a lot of good things about Saltigas and Toriums, but atm I am very happy with my big truck (Penn TRQ200 + 50lbs).

[Fisher4life]

I have heard a lot of good things about Saltigas and Toriums, but atm I am very happy with my big truck (Penn TRQ200 + 50lbs).

And big arms.....

[griz066]

Why not try a 2 speed reel

http://www.##################.com/store/product.asp?ID=368

http://www.##################.com/store/product.asp?ID=368

[griz066]

oops that didnt work oh well u get the gist try a TLD or Tiagra

[reggy]

If it`s a low speed reel you want, have a look at the PENN 330GT2
It has a better drag and a better anti reverse system than the torium or saltist(IMO), a stainless pinion gear,and is about half the price of the others.

I have one as my backup reel, but I love using the torium.
Reggy

[Noelm]

What the hell!! I just had a long post and it vanished, oh well, here goes the condensed version, the retrieve ratio of the reel does not play the most important part in keeping a Fish from getting to the bottom, drag, appropriate Rod and Angler skill come into play , lets look at a rather extreme example, you are Fishing in (say) 20 metres of water, you have out about 20 metres of line (more likely a tad less), now lets say we tie off that line to a Bollard, you hook a Fish, do you reckon it could make it to the Bottom?? Don’t think so! So in fact, the ratio has a bit to do with it, but not as much as you think, an Alvey, or the biggest game reel or highest retrieve reel will be equal to the task, high speed comes into play when Spinning, Jigging or using lighter line classes, low speeds come into their own when big Fish are down deep and need some pressure to move them, the added bonus is that when trolling and a fish is hooked, the other Rods can be cleared using the low speed to “winch” the gear in when big lures are used, while still in gear and moving forward where a high speed reel would be struggling at best, or crap out at worst!

[reggy]

i just lost my last post too!
anyway, most keepers in a catch of reefies are made up of trout, sweetlip,and various reds.
i think they are what the original question was about.
i have found that a good light 20kg carbon rod with 50lb braid just the tools for getting these species off the bottom.(without using the reel as a winch) after that, they come home without too much fuss.
now take fish like cobia ,tuna, big trevally, they fight every inch of the way.and can grow much bigger.
funny that these are the species that high speed reels like toriums,saltigas, torques etc, were made for.
does this not tell you something?

[Noelm]

yes, indeed, a high speed reel can be of great advantage when a Fish runs towards you, how often that happens though is debatable and is it often enough to buy a reel to counteract it? maybe! I have used and own both high speed, 2 speed and low speed ratios, would happily use either or all for most applications, except trolling as I mentioned way back, but as that is not in question here it is moot! use what you have, high or low, you will catch Fish, you will loose Fish, take it as it comes.

[TonyM]

I agree that a low speed is better for winding heavy lead back up from 100m to re-bait

Having said that I went for a high speed Saltist as I can use it for chucking poppers as well as jigging and bottom bashing

Ideally I'd like an outfit for each of those scenarios although I'm trying to focus on quality rather than quantity with my setups (still seem to have a fair few though!)

Cheers
Tony

[banshee]

...............
now take fish like cobia ,tuna, big trevally, they fight every inch of the way.and can grow much bigger.
funny that these are the species that high speed reels like toriums,saltigas, torques etc, were made for.
does this not tell you something?



Totaly dissagree,I put it to you that the speed these reels generate is there to initiate a strike in surface feeding pelagics when useing poppers and slugs/slices and has no bearing on improving the efficency of the reel once hooked up,I would also say that a high speed reel has no advantage what so ever when talking Cobia.Would be interesting to know how much line is retrieved per crank between the Saltist 40HS or the Torium/Trinidad.

[reggy]

I agree that a low speed is better for winding heavy lead back up from 100m to re-bait

Having said that I went for a high speed Saltist as I can use it for chucking poppers as well as jigging and bottom bashing

Ideally I'd like an outfit for each of those scenarios although I'm trying to focus on quality rather than quantity with my setups (still seem to have a fair few though!)

Cheers
Tony
i like high speed for bringing lead back up fast, but then i dont use a lot of lead with braid.

[finding_time]

the added bonus is that when trolling and a fish is hooked, the other Rods can be cleared using the low speed to “winch” the gear in when big lures are used, while still in gear and moving forward where a high speed reel would be struggling at best, or crap out at worst!

I assume your talking heavy tackle trolling Noel!;) Mate 6 to 1 on 8kg is fantasic both for getting the spread in quick and keep up with the lunatic on the sticks who is going backwards at the fish like there no tomorrow( The Faster you get that pin in the faster you can hook another;) )

Ian

[ozbee]

the bigger the reel barrel the better in over /heads i use tld20,25 which are okay but you will do a lot better with barrels about twice that size you get less twist in the rod under strain as you pump it is so much easier. brand is up to you. high speed doesn't really gain much but if it comes with both you can use it for trailing as well

[reggy]

Totaly dissagree,I put it to you that the speed these reels generate is there to initiate a strike in surface feeding pelagics when useing poppers and slugs/slices and has no bearing on improving the efficency of the reel once hooked up,I would also say that a high speed reel has no advantage what so ever when talking Cobia.Would be interesting to know how much line is retrieved per crank between the Saltist 40HS or the Torium/Trinidad.
yes Banshee, i am quite aware that the reason these reels are high speed to get lures working . the point i was trying to make is that these reels are very capable of handling big fish and heavy loads. look at specialist reels such as the Torsa, a high speed reel targeting big fish.
i am aware that a lower gear ratio will deliver a stronger gear train, but the new generation of high speed reels with oversize pinion gears are very capable of taking large fish in my experience.

[Cheech]

I use big spins for bottom bashing and agree with the low speed. I also thought about getting a high speed because I thought that a faster retrieval during the wind part of pump and wind would mean I would be back to the pump faster.
but as Banshee says, a lot of fishing is retrieving empty hooks so the low speed is better for the crank up. A high speed may mean having to pump and wind instead of just cranking.

Recently I bought a Saragosa 14000 which is 4.9 to 1. So sort of in between. But the quality of the reel and the ease of winding means that straight cranking is a breeze.

[Noelm]

I guess to put a whole diffeent slant on this, no reel (except an Alvey) was ever designed to be used as a winch, even when just winding in a sinker, you should use the rod in a lift and wind action (no one does of course) the gears and frames were just not made to pull up dead weights, but it something we all do.

[Marky Mark]

I've got a Saltist 40 high torque and a Saltist 40 high speed. The slow one's for bottom bashing and the high speed for knife jigging etc. I wouldn't use the high speed for bashing for all the reasons mentioned above.


the gears and frames were just not made to pull up dead weights

Not too sure about this one though? Even if you pump and wind on a big fish with high drag settings wouldn't that be putting more strain on the reel than winding up a 4 ounce sinker?

[Fisher4life]

thanks for everyone's input.

I guess in hindsight i should've made it a poll.

For me i compare the high speed v low speed to the gearing to that of cars/4x4's they use low gear where you need brute power/torque to get something heavy moving, and bottom bashing is that when it is done right, hopefully bringing big things up from the deep, hence bigger reels use the lower gears also (2 speed reels).

At the end of a day of fishing i would prefer to use a reel that i would find lighter and easier to use, if that means i have to turn the handle half a wind extra in comparison to using a higher speed reel but find it easier to bring heavy weights up, then so be it.

I'm going to get the low speed reel for bottom bashing, and compare it with my mate's high speed torium. In theory the low speed makes more sense, but only time will tell.

Cheers
Josh

[TonyM]

I finally got to try the Saltist 30TH (high speed) out and found it comfortable for bottom bashing even at the 100m mark with heavy lead. Caught a few nice fish on it and it performed very nicely.

One important point though is that I put the handle on the longer setting which gives you a lot more torque, it was a bit tough with the handle on the shorter setting winding up the heavy sinkers.

I also upgraded the handle to a Jigging Master power handle which might look a bit wanky but worked very well - the handle itself was much better to grip, and the bearings in the handle make it smooth as butter!

Hope that's of use to someone!

Cheers
Tony