how to tell if a rod is on backbone

[yellahunter]

hey guys,
well with all the recent issues getting a good rod to match up my baby (zillion) on, the issue of loomis rods not having the guides built on the backbone.

The guys at EJ Todd told me that although some of them are its as a result of the builder fluking it. I would have thought it was standard practice but obviously not.

Ive heard that its more important on baitcaster/overhead rods, thus why it a concern for me. Can anyone shed any light on what difference would be and if I would notice any performance issues, should it not be built on the backbone.

Also does anyone know how i can tell, is it the line in the graphite running from top to bottom...?

any tips are much appreciated.

Cheers,

Ben

[Flattie Assassin]

Load the rod up and look along the spine. Turn the rod slightly left and right. You will see if it's in line with the backbone of the rod.

[Getout]

Hold the rod at the tip with the butt resting on the ground. Spin it by the tip and let it find its own position. The runners should be uppermost on a spin rod and under-hung on an overhead rod.
On an overhead/baitcaster, if the runners are not opposite to the backbone, the rod will twist under load.
I'm only an amateur but thats how I know it to be, in rod-building 101.

[2DKnBJ]

Have a look here.All that and a bit more

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=114408

Cheers Dazza

[nigelr]

Hence the value in a custom-made rod, yellahunta!;)
A professional rod builder will utilise the backbone depending on your reel type.
Cheers!

[wheezer]

actually its not all that important on most casting rods to build on the backbone. when fighting a fish your muscles are tensed and there is no way a rod built off the bone would have noticable tourque. think about it. most fish don't always fight in the same plane. they are all over the show, left/right/jumping/going under the boat etc so all rod angles come into play.

instead the rod may be built off the bone to assist in casting. you are more relaxed when casting, so *if* there is any rod tourque chances are it will be during the loading phase of a cast. and most of your casts are done with the wrist rolled sideways with a baitcaster....

[Stuart]

I have to agree with most of what wheezer said. The backbone is less important on lighter spin rods and even bait casters because of the smaller and much thinner wall thickness. The dominance of the backbone all comes down to the wall thickness of the blank, the thicker the wall the more pronounced the backbone will be. The thinner the wall the less obvious it can be. As for locating the back bone the advice you have been given will work fine.

Stu

[Noelm]

to find the backbone, I find that the method I use is easier, just hold the rod about 1/3 from the tip, hold the tip and rotate the rod, it will sort of "click" into place when on the backbone, but the above methods work as well! what I do when building a new rod, is find the most prominent backbone (sometimes theres two) mark the blank to match the type of reel to be used, fit the end grip, and then the reel seat, aligning it with the previous mark, then before the glue goes off, hold the rod in the preferred method to locate the backbone again, and then "fine tune" the reel seat to make sure it is right on the backbone!

[Flattie Assassin]

Noel's explanation is the best way to find the backbone. Without a doubt.

[Rodman]

Hi Guys

Although I agree with all of the above, you will find any hand made rod is built accordingly to the backbone.

I feel that maybe rods like loomis may be being mass manufactured? which will result in the backbone being irrelevant.

I may be wrong, I hope I am wrong because of the price you pay for these rods

Regards

Ken

[Flattie Assassin]

After having read a few negative comments on GLoomis, I thoroughly checked mine over and it's faultless. I'm not sure if the GL2 etc are checked as severely as the higher end rods. But everything is aligned along the spine as it should be. There is no white spots at the tip, and all the binding is spot on.

I will however, be very carefully checking a GL2 out myself in the next day or two. I want something a bit heavier. Say 4-7 kg. All the loomis rods i have seen at Allround Angler Caboolture were in very good condition. I would be very surprised to find any faults there. Will let you know anyway. If the Loomis is not up to scratch, it will be live fibre texilium all the way.

[cammo79]

my loomis rods are all great, before to many people start bagging loomis to much id be having a look at other top end rods on the market. Every factory has faults wether it be cars, boats fishing rods etc but loomis also do have by far the best warranty on the market, to to get a smith rod replaced, they dont even like to give a 30 day warranty.

I am having a hard time believing that someone from ejtodd would admit to and describe getting it right as a fluke, all my loomis rods and my mates are all good and we have about 20 between us so for all of us to get flukes is a fluke in itself.

I suggest before you name brands to shame you get info from all brands before you compare them to another.

Cheers all
Cam

[yellahunter]

yeah good point Cam,
i would do exactly the same be it loomis, miller, shimano or jarvis walker mate,
bottom line is I wasnt making any comparisons ...
I just asked for advice on the backbone etc.

From what I have seen so far they are not the nicest of rod finishes (Loomis).

mate il guarantee you that he said they fluke it,
why would i make it up,
the whole reason im doing these posts is because of all this and what he said...

The guys at EJ Todd were going to personally select me a forcelight from what they had instock to avoid a third faulty rod being shipped. He phoned me back after a few hours and said that of the 1/2 dozen in stock they only had 1 which had straight guides and correct finishing. However he said its not on the backbone. I then asked what it meant and he went on from there.
He said that building the guides onto the backbone is a great thing but not part of the policy at G Loomis, he said they have no procedure or rule to do it. He said if you can get a loomis like it well great grab it but if not dont worry too much as it doesnt affact the performance anyways. He then used the quote that when they are perfectly on or opposite the backbone (depending on rod type) its generally a fluke.

The thing that made me start questioning the whole backbone thing is because he actually rang to mention it. I would have thought if it wasnt a problem he wouldnt let me know.

Anyways, I wanted a loomis, and still kinda do, just need to look around but from what ive seen so far its a bit grim. anyways hopefully il have something soon

[yellahunter]

this thread was never a comparison war
ie: ford/holden

[cammo79]

yellahunter,

wasnt having i dig at you personally, just found it hard to beleive any distributor would refer to his product as fluke (no offence meant)

i went down to bcf and found quite a few others not built on the backbone cheap and dear, from the people ive spoken to it doesnt seem like it really makes a difference until you get to straight hard running pelagics, or jigging for things like big samsons in a vertical fight,

I am open to other brands but after snapping a few higher end daiwas in silly accidents i just love the no questions asked loomis warranty.

take it as you will
cam

[DR]

while the general concensus is that being built on the backbone is neither here nor there, it may well be true. But i prefer rods built on the backbone for all the reasons mentioned, torque when under load etc. etc. to me it is just plain lazy & lack of attention to detail., it is a 10-30 second job to align a reel seat & for what you pay for some of the top end rod it is nothing.

[marty_z]

I suggest before you name brands to shame you get info from all brands before you compare them to another.

Cam,

Not sure what thread you are reading, but I don't see anywhere in this one where Ben is shaming Loomis? So far he has stated a fact about a Loomis rod offered to him, enquired as to what exactly the backbone does on a rod and has quoted statements made by the staff at EJ Todd.

Just my opinion, but if I was to pay that much for a rod, I would like to think someone had spent 60 seconds lining up the backbone. I have built a couple of rods myself and even I managed to build them on the backbone!

Marty

[wheezer]

it seems everyone is missing the point about a rods backbone....blank manufacturers don't set out to specifically build a backbone into a blank, it is there as a by product of the manufacturing process. compared to many other facets of what goes into building a good rod it is of little consequence whether or not the rod is built to the bone when under load. regardless of what kind of rod under load the overriding factor is the guides will always want to align themselves with the direction of pull, hence the spiral wrap system on overheads to reduce torque.

you can use the backbone to your advantage in other ways, for instance on impoundment barra rods, where the sheer size of the target fish necessitates a powerful rod, but you still need to be able to cast lures, you can build the rod opposite the backbone, so it is softer during the loading phase of the cast yet stiffest when fighting a large barra...in theory anyway as neither during casting or fighting do you keep the rod aligned in a top/bottom plane all the time....

a rather long reply for quite simply...don't let the alignment of the backbone make or break your purchase!

[Roo]

If you balance the rod about 1/3rd down from the tip and then apply light bending force to the tip the guides will invariably want to be either up or down using this method on a built rod. If you spin it 90 degrees it will want to spring back. The very act of binding guides to the rod will cause the rod to find its own "point of least resistance" when you use the backbone finding methods quoted here.I reckon average joe would struggle to really find the backbone on a built up rod...

as for is it neccesary, A couple of rod builders have already commented here as to how important(or lack of) it is. Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Blissfully ignorant!!

[DR]

it seems everyone is missing the point about a rods backbone....blank manufacturers don't set out to specifically build a backbone into a blank, it is there as a by product of the manufacturing process. compared to many other facets of what goes into building a good rod it is of little consequence whether or not the rod is built to the bone when under load. regardless of what kind of rod under load the overriding factor is the guides will always want to align themselves with the direction of pull, hence the spiral wrap system on overheads to reduce torque.

you can use the backbone to your advantage in other ways, for instance on impoundment barra rods, where there is a large difference between the lures used and the sheer size of fish targetted, you can build the rod opposite the backbone, so it is softer during the loading phase of the cast to more effectively cast the lures yet stiffest when fighting a large barra...in theory anyway as neither during casting or fighting do you keep the rod aligned in a top/bottom plane....

a rather long reply for quite simply...don't let the alignment of the backbone make or break your purchase!

i suppose due to the fact that we are not discussing custom rods, this is about expensive off the rack numbers that have backbones all over the place with no thought to where they are & the general answer to cover their lack of care is that 'it's not important' the average joe will not get any real benefit out of building off the backbone to soften casts or more strength when fighting fish etc. etc.. We have seen all these arguments before, to me they are basically technical BS to convince the new owner that the salesman knows what he is talking about & the rod is ok. everyone has been educated to having rods built on the bone, it feels nicer to load & handle, performance is definately not hampered & would make sales a whole lot easier... so why not take the few extra seconds to do it & save all this sort of discussion.

[Little grey men]

Sometimes it is a lot easier to be Blissfully ignorant!!

Hey, it works for me;)

[Scott nthQld]

just read what wheezer said, Have any of you tried to fight a 30+kg GT on a rod where the runners are not set along the backbone correctly? I have, it was a couple of years ago on a reef charter, the torque on the rod was massive, and when I could'nt keep the rod in the fighting postion any more, the rod twisted and almost disclocated my shoulder, a lot of pain, which spelt the end of my day's fishing. So not only was I fighting the fish, but I was trying to keep the rod up right, against it natural backbone, which put me under a lot more pressure and pain. Iit was a 24kg rod with 24kg line and the force was much geater than a much lighter bream stick, so match your rod to your style of fishing, if tackling heavier game, than setting the rod correctly is a must.

As to how, I have no clue, so really my post was pointless, but find someone who will set the rod right if you can't do it yourself.

[yellahunter]

now im all confused.
I tried the backbone locator thingy on a few of my raiders etc and cant seem to do it. The rod will be used to chase jacks, estuary cod, murray cod and if i ever get up to the dams barra.

so i guess its not real important.
if its not going to matter i reckon il look at few forcelights over the weekend and grab the nicest build

[Stuart]

A rods backbone isn’t all that crucial on real light rods as it is on heavier rods. In having said that I build all my rods on the spin or on the opposing side of the spine to get the effect I’m looking for. It takes me roughly 5 seconds to locate a spine and make the necessary adjustments. I specialise in blue water rods from 4kg game rods through to unlimited chair rods and all these rods absolutely need to be built on the spine.

I designed and built one of the first true 100/130 pound popper tossing rods in this country and I can assure you that if the spine was out by 5 degrees you couldn’t hang onto it for torque. It takes no time to locate a spine so why people debate this issue so much is beyond me, just glue the but assembly up and turn the reel seat to suite the spine. It shouldn’t matter the price tag hanging on a rod as wether the back bone is correct or not, I have come across many so called top custom rods that cost a small fortune that are way of the mark. Just because you fork out heaps on a custom rod means very little these days mate, cost means very little in today’s world.

Stu

[wheezer]

just read what wheezer said, Have any of you tried to fight a 30+kg GT on a rod where the runners are not set along the backbone correctly? I have, it was a couple of years ago on a reef charter, the torque on the rod was massive, and when I could'nt keep the rod in the fighting postion any more, the rod twisted and almost disclocated my shoulder, a lot of pain, which spelt the end of my day's fishing. So not only was I fighting the fish, but I was trying to keep the rod up right, against it natural backbone, which put me under a lot more pressure and pain. Iit was a 24kg rod with 24kg line and the force was much geater than a much lighter bream stick, so match your rod to your style of fishing, if tackling heavier game, than setting the rod correctly is a must.

As to how, I have no clue, so really my post was pointless, but find someone who will set the rod right if you can't do it yourself.

if you read my first post in this thread, you'll see i am speaking in the context of the application. he is not chasing a heavy tackle rod. i was simply tring to get my point across, that for the intended application there are other factors more important than whether or not the rod is built to the backbone

[Hardb8]

Great read kids,

With the opinions and knowledge of Ausfishers I respect,And rate highly.

I'm enjoying this thread,Keep it comin guys.

Make sure ya continue to play nice now.

Cheers. B8.;)

[yellahunter]

the rod would be about 10-17lb
is that classed as heavy enough to warrant the backbone neccesity

[Flattie Assassin]

Yes i believe it is.