What makes a blank a really good blank??

[finga]

I'm curious on what you think makes a blank a really good blank.
There you go...open slather.
Ta all
:)

[Flattie Assassin]

Ohh i feel like a student answering the teacher. umm umm pick me sir.. Manufacturing process, Components and action!!

[tunaticer]

If it suits your intended uses for that rod its the right one regardless of cost or name or brand.
I have been building my rods for 30ish yrs now and some of the rods i currently use and have built will match just about anything in its class for fishability and useability.

There is way too much marketting going on promoting decent average quality rods as being the best and the must haves. I believe that we as fishos follow the pack just like teenage girls these days following trends or must having the right gear for the right look etc.

Open slather enough?

Jack.

[DR]

If it suits your intended uses for that rod its the right one regardless of cost or name or brand.
I have been building my rods for 30ish yrs now and some of the rods i currently use and have built will match just about anything in its class for fishability and useability.

There is way too much marketting going on promoting decent average quality rods as being the best and the must haves. I believe that we as fishos follow the pack just like teenage girls these days following trends or must having the right gear for the right look etc.

Open slather enough?

Jack.

totally agree with tunaticer... way too much promotion on what is supposed to be the best. If given 3 unbranded rods, one top of the range, one mid & a lower end I feel that most wouldn't really pick a lot of difference between them, certainly not the 100s of dollars between top & bottom.
to each his own, a lot still swear by Ugly Stiks & wouldn't own anything else, if it does everything you need & you are happy with it, it's the best one..

personally i like most blanks with a fast taper & a fast recovery..i'm easy pleased 8-)

[Stuart]

Finga

Good question and one that should be explained. I have been building rods for many years. On top of this I designed blanks for many companies overseas. I also designed my own range of blanks which I have sold for years as made up rods only. If we look at the question Finga asked “I'm curious on what you think makes a blank a really good blank” Then the answer isn’t a matter of “If the blank feels good then its fine” doesn’t quite fit. Blanks come in thousands of configurations while some of the claims are beyond comprehension. To try and keep this as simple as possible I won’t go down the high tech road but rather keep it simple so every one can under stand. To begin with there is no shortage of cheap crap blanks but in having said that there are also many good blanks on the market. I may even think a blank is crap when you think its great, why you ask? Well…. Based on my experience I’m looking at different things in the blank were as you might be looking at action and the finish. I’m not for a second belittling anyone here; it’s a matter of experience and understanding of blanks. Don’t ask me to mention blank names or model numbers on this site because I won’t.

The difference in a good blank and a bad blank is three fold, 1 How the blank has been rolled 2 The material which has been used 3 the placement of that material. If one of these three are missed or stuffed up or even misunderstood then your blank wont be all it could have been. Lets look at number one, how the blank has been rolled. There are many resones why a blank can go wrong here and the biggest cause is lack of persistent pressure on the rolling table. This will lead to misalignment of the fibre which will cause either a soft blank or even worse a failure. If the material isn’t wrapped tight around the mandrel then when it comes time to wrap the cellophane around the blank it will pull the material in all directions. 2 The material which has been used. This is what makes or brakes a blank and quite literary. This is were it gets quite technical, each type and grade of material has a stretch ratio over its length. This is were material placement comes in to equation i.e. Carbon and glass must be placed in the right location of the blank in terms of its wall or the different materials will fight against one another.

This leads to premature softening “inter layer delamination”, Outer wall delamination or just a snapped rod. Lets say carbon has a stretch ratio of 2.1% over its length and glass has a ratio of 3.2% over its length then tell my why would we put the carbon over the top of the glass as so many do? Ooo.. I know that answer, it’s cheaper and much faster to produce. That’s why you see so many blanks rolled this way, carbon in the butt and glass in the tip section. 3 The placement of the material, this ties into number 2 in many ways. Because material has many different ratios you need to work out exactly were to place them so they all work together at the right time of the bending moment. You don’t need to be exact but you do need to be dam close. This can take many days to work out were the material needs to be placed in order to achieve the action and power required. I can tell you all there is way more to it than what I have just penned but as I stated in the beginning I will keep it simple.

Yes, sure you can go and flex a few rod blanks, look at the paint and say…. yep that’s got some balls. Most of the rod building fraternity has had the wool pulled over your eyes for so long it’s not funny. I have tried in vain to clean a few areas up but only to be threatened with legal action, what does that tell you.

Stu
Precision Rods

[finga]

Ohh i feel like a student answering the teacher. umm umm pick me sir.. Manufacturing process, Components and action!!
Mate, I've learnt a lot from the young members here.
Never too old to learn and never too young to teach.

[finga]

From my very limited experience with this rodbuilding caper I've learnt a lot. And it's probably not what the marketeers would like.
I've seen el cheapo blanks do a lot more then what could be expected of them and seen relatively expensive blanks bring disappointment.
I've also seen blanks that wouldn't be any good even as a tomato stake but that was expected of them and this was the reason I started the thread.
So from what I can gather it's a matter of getting background knowledge of the product you intend to use whether it be blanks, guides, thread, epoxy etc etc

One particular blank I've built was made in China and was given to me so I made it up purely for the experience as I wanted to also experiment with a spiral wrap.
Now as soon as you load this thing and leave the load on it for more then 10 minutes it gets a memory and takes about a day to become relatively straight again.
The action is good and would suit me but it's a crappy blank..... but I'm not complaining. I know it was crap from the word go and had no expectations of it other then been black.
It was a whole $3 for a 8-10kg blank. It'll never get used to catch a fish (it'll probably get hung on the wall to hang fish capture pictures off...the rod of fame..or the rod of shame) but was worth it just for the project intended ie getting some building skills :)

It also seems to me that you really don't know what a blank is like until you build it and try it in it's intended use. If it's a success then your laughing. If not then try again.

So is there any way we can tell how a blank is made by looking at it??
Or is it a matter of asking questions and trying to find specifics first.

PS Stuart...could you do a cut and paste of your post and start a new thread like your "how a spine is formed" thread.
A mod might make it sticky as it's great info

[Stuart]

Finga

"So is there any way we can tell how a blank is made by looking at it??
Or is it a matter of asking questions and trying to find specifics first."



There are a few tips you can look at. If your looking at a composite blank and the carbon is visibly on the outside then I would avoid it. If the wall thickness seems quite thin for what it is then again avoid it. Many imported blanks spruik about the carbon in the blank like Im6, IM7, T700, and T800 and so on. This grade of carbon is in fact only a standard modules. For those that still don’t follow, it’s the cheapest carbon you can buy and some of the softest around in terms of elasticity.

Stu

[Bruce_Bogtrotter]

Finga

"So is there any way we can tell how a blank is made by looking at it??
Or is it a matter of asking questions and trying to find specifics first."



There are a few tips you can look at. If your looking at a composite blank and the carbon is visibly on the outside then I would avoid it. If the wall thickness seems quite thin for what it is then again avoid it. Many imported blanks spruik about the carbon in the blank like Im6, IM7, T700, and T800 and so on. This grade of carbon is in fact only a standard modules. For those that still don’t follow, it’s the cheapest carbon you can buy and some of the softest around in terms of elasticity.

Stu

thanks Stuart, what is the better of the graphites? & are they judged on how many 'million' modulus they are? & what modulus does the good stuff start at??

[Stuart]

Carbon fibre has a classification rating which is tensile modulus. Tensile Modulus simply means how much pulling force a specific diameter fibre can withstand without breaking. This is measured in PSI “ pounds per squere inch”. Low Modulus has a tensile modulus under 34.8 million psi while the other standards such as standard modulus, intermediate modulus, high modulus and ultra high modulus. Ultra high modulus has tensile of any were from around 70 through 150 million psi. From memory, steel has a tensile strenght of less than 30 million psi. The other term you may have heard of is ‘Modulus of Elasticity’. This is a measure of stress of the fibre over strain.

I know most of you use the term graphite, this term is wrong although most of there industry use’s it because they don’t know. Graphite is derived from pitch based product “oil”. Graphite is in fact a pure form of carbon while carbon is the second from the top of the tree.

Stu

[craftycarp]

I have heard that bonding agent is as important as the carbon fibre used. Apparently the better the bonding agent the less carbon fibre is needed to achieve similar strength? Or have I got this wrong?

[Stuart]

The bonding agent is very important, as is important as the carbon because one with out the other and you wont have a blank. The resin used by some is called Polyester while the better blanks use epoxy resins. Polyester resin is cheap and nasty because it sets brittle, can and will form a memory in the blank like Fingers blank did, is way more likely to breakage than that of epoxy resin. The bonding agent as you call it is in fact called the matrix; it’s what keeps every fibre in alignment. Can we loose some carbon because of the resin used? No way. Most cloths today wouldn’t hold any more resin than 15% per square meter, some are even less than that. Once the cellophane is wrapped onto the blank and then backed at 120 degrees for 3 hours most of the resin is squeezed out under pressure. How much resin is hard to say butt a guess of around 50 to 60% of its total volume would be close I think. You need very little epoxy resin to keep the blank together and epoxy resin is some of the world’s strongest adhesives.

Stu
l

[Owen]

There are a few tips you can look at. If your looking at a composite blank and the carbon is visibly on the outside then I would avoid it. Stu

Stu,
Are you refering to instances where there are stray fibres sticking out sucha s in some of the "OEM" blanks, or the types that have raised helically wound fibres such as sold by some well known manufacturers?

I have some of both. The former are as good as what I paid for I suppose and the latter seems to perform well enough. Trouble for most of us punters is that we don't have the opportunity to test side by side under controlled conditions.

The first time I used the rod I refer to as the later I didn't feel like I was in control of the fish, however I was on a boat that was covered in, so I couldn't work the 7' blank properly.
Had I lost the fish of a lifetime I'd probably have felt that blank was a piece of crap, whether it deserved it or not.

Most of what is considered "the good stuff" is based on the opinions of a few blokes who write for magazines etc and most of these have VERY questionable objectivity.
The same can be said of some forums.

I don't believe there is a system in place that allows the average woody to evaluate the relative performance of two different blanks for use in same fishing conditions. Nor do I think you will ever get industry support for such a system.

So in the end, a "good blank" is one that achieves the purpose within the constraints of your budget.
I wonder how many monster murray cod have been landed on a bamboo pole? ;)

[DR]

Stu,
Most of what is considered "the good stuff" is based on the opinions of a few blokes who write for magazines etc and most of these have VERY questionable objectivity.
The same can be said of some forums.



& repeated verbatim by the sheeple..

[Stuart]

Meaning?

Stu

[DR]

don't get all defensive on me, not aimed at you :-/ meaning that across most chat boards the sheeple believe all that they are told, regardless of whether it is rod, reel lure etc. even if they do not own them. If some high profile, paid for comment journo or chat board guru says they are great, everyone agrees & repeats all baaaaaaa. There is a multitude of great gear out there, as i am sure you are aware as you appear to deal with a lot of overseas clients..BUT, getting people to sway slightly & try for themselves is very hard to do..so they miss out, their own fault.

i know, i am a cynical p***k, years of experience.8-)

at being a cynical p***k::)

[Owen]

So when did you become cynical ? ::) ;) ;D

That was pretty much my point DR
Some of the stuff I read in fishing mags makes me laugh it's so advertorialized (like that? I think I just made it up).
Add to that the fact that not many people put their hand up and admit they bought a lemon.
They paid top dollar, so damn it to hell, it MUST be good.

[jan]

Yeah Owen and DR, I agree with Stuart, Meaning???????. Not blowing my own trumpet but I write for a magazine and I get paid for it. I do not get paid by rod suppliers in anyway to do articles on their blanks, I choose the blanks because its either what a customer has asked me to make up or its a rod I have done for myself that I think might be worthwhile for others to try. I have to buy the blanks and components (yes at a cheaper price than most because that is part of my job) but I have to buy them none the less. Garry Howard sponsors the rod building page in the mag I write for but that doesn't mean I will always do one of his blanks. I have in the past because the blanks I wrote about were chosen by the customer or it was a blank I particularly liked for the job at hand. Next issue I have done a samurai 003 and the one after that will be a Hastings blank from Peter at GCCR because I like those blanks for a particular job. Its as simple as that.
Cheers, Jan.

[Owen]

Geez Jan,
I have a perfectly good consiracy theory going here and you have to spoil it with ethics ;)

Unfortunately the few that do offer honest evaluations are vastly outweighed by the ones that only ever mention what is in the sponsors lineup.

I have a samurai blank and I like it very much. Also got a hastings waiting for me to build, so I can't comment on any more than the aesthetics on that one, but it looks the goods.
When someone comes to me to buy a welder I ask them what they want to do first and then we talk about brands. What I recommend will depend on what metal, where they live (got good power?), their experience etc etc.
Sometimes you tell them things they don't want to hear.
Sounds like you operate the same way.:thumbup:

[DR]

Yeah Owen and DR, I agree with Stuart, Meaning???????. Not blowing my own trumpet but I write for a magazine and I get paid for it. I do not get paid by rod suppliers in anyway to do articles on their blanks, I choose the blanks because its either what a customer has asked me to make up or its a rod I have done for myself that I think might be worthwhile for others to try. I have to buy the blanks and components (yes at a cheaper price than most because that is part of my job) but I have to buy them none the less. Garry Howard sponsors the rod building page in the mag I write for but that doesn't mean I will always do one of his blanks. I have in the past because the blanks I wrote about were chosen by the customer or it was a blank I particularly liked for the job at hand. Next issue I have done a samurai 003 and the one after that will be a Hastings blank from Peter at GCCR because I like those blanks for a particular job. Its as simple as that.
Cheers, Jan.

if your writing a rodbuilding column it's a whole other kettle of fish..
if you are paying for the gear & you are giving your own personal opinion on particular blanks, thats your choice. I am sure if you become a household name you will be inundated with offers from rod companies to use their blanks, & to stay in the business,(i don't know you, but unless you are very strong) you probably will.
the fishing tackle journalism tree in Australia is a very small tree with not a lot of room at the top. When i bothered to read the magazines it was amazing the veiled snipes at each other.
if you have access to magazine articles from years past you will see they are basically the same each year, just a different author rehashing 'how to catch flathead/snapper/jew/etc.' just with slightly different technique, but basically just using better products.

if you are writing a column & are being supplied with gear & your story goes along the line of "i picked up my Loomis with a shimano stella loaded with 50lb finns braid & a 4" berkley gulp in nuclear chicken attached to 2mts of yamatoyo fluorocarbon.. etc. etc. etc.'while it gives information on the setup it also pushes the products, & a lot believe that this gear is the be all & end all, because it's all they hear about.
when you read other articles by same journos they all read similar. It's just advertising.
How do you think Ian Miller became so well known to the aust fishing public. he obviously is a good mate of Starling & if you go right back to the early days, they fished together & starling did a lot to promote his mates rods, had he been a mate of someone else that produced good rods, no doubt someone else would have the same high profile as Miller, thats not saying he does not make good rods, but there are no doubt a lot out there that make good rods that you have never heard of, they just don't have access to to the best products & someone to "heighten their profile"


like i said, i am cynical & as long as i remember i have tried not to be one of the sheeple, but that's just me, it's more fun & way more satisfying finding gear that is different & good..thats not to say i don't use mainstream gear, i have used Daiwa reels for nearly 35 years & see no reason to change.

these are just my personal opinions/ramblings..:-X

[Stuart]

DR


I have to agree, if only these journalists would get charged like all the other prostitutes the mags in this country would be a far better read. Same deal isn’t it, selling them selves to the highest bidder. I don’t think anyone hates this industry more than what I do, I have to make a living from it but I don’t associate with this knobs.:-/

Stu

[grave41]

The Blank that helps me catch the best fish is the one!!!!!
Graham

[BenatCoffs]

Some stuff about blank manufacture...

Stu
l

Stu, Often you see a blank that has a definite 'traditional' CF pattern to the blank, and others have a smooth makeup of fibre.

What difference does this make to the performance of the blank?

[Stuart]

CF is ok on blanks but most if not all use it for its aesthetics rather than any real function of fibre. It’s very simple, the more fibre you can fit in one direction “longitudinal” the stronger and more responsive the blank will be. CF dosent fit this criteria at all, it will offer some extra resistance to knocks but that’s about it. Normal carbon fibre cloth where all the fibre is running up the blank is dam near double the strenght than that of CF.

Stu

[BenatCoffs]

So a carbon fibre blank isn't a graphite blank and V-V?

[Stuart]

Technically speaking… No. Graphite is the next stage up from Carbon and about 1200 degrees hotter.

Stu

[BenatCoffs]

Technically speaking… No. Graphite is the next stage up from Carbon and about 1200 degrees hotter.

Stu

So which is *better* (given better is the lightest most responsive blankand not counting for which is going to snap if you breathe on it)?

How do you tell which one it is on a painted blank when tackleshop guys say the material is the same? (afterall, it's all the same 'element' (mmmm diamond fibre bling sticks)).

[Stuart]

I hear what you’re saying. Intermediate and high modulus would be my first choice of carbon. Most companies that make blanks will very often use standard modulus to keep the price right down. You can still get a very good blank from this grade of carbon if you actually use enough of it. Better doesn’t mean lighter, far from it mate. That’s what every D@#K head would have you believe, don’t forget mate every one is an expert when it comes to rods just have to ask them and they will tell you.

IM6 and even less, which is still a standard modulus carbon, can be used in many styles of blank you just need more to get the action and power required. As you go up into the intermediate modulus carbon you can deduct more carbon for the same result, and so on and so on. Most blanks and or rods out of China are made from IM6 because its one of the cheapest gr4ades around.

“How do you tell which blank when they are painted and yet the tackle shop guy says it’s all the same”

Well that’s a hard question; I can normally feel the difference. To the untrained guy it’s much harder. However the price tag normally tells you what it’s made from. In having said that who is to say they aren’t ripping you off. How many over priced rods have you seen on the shelf lately? I haven’t yet meat a tackle shop guy that knows what the hell they are on about. That guy that said there is no difference proves my statement right. In essence there is no real definitive answer to your question in terms of knowing what a blank is made from, especially out of China.

Stu

[BenatCoffs]

It would seem that even the manufacturers aren't sure...

from www.anglerpacific.com.au



PACIFIC COMPONENTS - BLANKS - HIGHGRAPH
High Modulus Graphite (HMG) blanks represent excellent value for money, enabling anglers to experience the superior characteristics of carbon fibre (graphite) without the unnecessary cost of imported blanks.



I actually really enjoy the Ultraspin 2000 blank, I have a couple and they do everything I ask them to do. For *my*purposes I regard these as a "Really good blank". Whether anyone else does or not is a different story.



What would the modulus be for different fibre names?

Would this be a suitable way to compare the proprietary names of graphite/CF? eg Batson uses RX6/7/8, Loomis uses GL2/3 IMX but in reality none of it has any real world meaning.

[Toddy_again]

What a great thread.Excellent reading.

Toddy

[bayfisher]

I actually really enjoy the Ultraspin 2000 blank, I have a couple and they do everything I ask them to do. For *my*purposes I regard these as a "Really good blank". Whether anyone else does or not is a different story.


Your not the only one i have a light snapper/squire stick i made on an ultraspin 2000 blank and it one of my favorite rods. I actually used this blank because i flicking through some only bush and beach mags looking through Stuarts articles for "rod recipes" for inspiration. I believe there was one for a sp bream stick using this blank. I made mine slightly differently but for me its a "really good blank" whether it really is or isn't, well I'm not sure but i like it ;D

Cheers Chris

p.s. Actually this fish in my photo was caught using that stick, as you can see I'm very happy with it.

[sid_fishes]

i feel a topic in bnb coming on,,, ian

[Stuart]

The ultra spin 2000 is a great little blank. Not my first pick of the crop but for the price, you just cant go wrong.

Stu

[finga]

This is all really great stuff fellas.
Thanks a million as a lot of info is now stuck in my noggin' just to make me more confused. :D

What about glass blanks??
What do you look for??

For a little light whippy rod is glass better then carbon overall because of the flexibility (or unflexible nature of carbon) of glass or am I all hickledee-pickledeed again??
Cheers Scott :)

[Stuart]

Carbon can flex almost as much as Glass can. In order to achieve a realy nice flexible tip in a carbon blank you first have to use a standard modulus and reduce the diameter of the tip as much as possible. I’m talking a diameter of at least 1.6mm in the tip, this way it flexes much more readily. Glass is old school Finga; however you can do pretty much what ever you like with his stuff.

Stu

[BenatCoffs]

I got in contact with Pac Comp about the Ultraspin as I was interested in what the modulus of the carbon was.

"About 35 million"

I have a Batson RX7 blank which is 43 million. It is a lot faster rated blank though so can't really compare.

I extended a Ultraspin to 7'2" that I use to cast small metals for aussie salmon etc. After seeing the snapper picture above I took it out today with a new spool of 4lb braid.

Throwing 2" moulting shrimp on 1/32oz jigheads I picked up 3 45cm kingies, a 35cm bream, 2 35cm big eyes and hooked but dropped a bonito of around 40cm. Love the curve of these rods when loaded up hard. I got a 2.5kg aussie salmon on it a few weeks back (which was actually the first fish from the first cast with this rod)

Pic shows a mate with a sambo caught on much heavier gear not long after (there is only so many 15 minute fights you can stand on salmon...)

http://images.benandmichelle.net/albums/userpics/DSC04062_%28Medium%29.JPG

Anyone know what the Loomis modulus' are?