Rod recipe wanted

[conan]

I urgently need a good recipe for a 8ft live baiting rod for a overhead the blank is a 7 wrap

[Superior-Rods]

Hello

What brand and model blank is it,i may be able to help you.
Regards Andrew

[conan]

it is a snyderglass, model unknown but it is definitely a 7 wrap blank

[BenatCoffs]

I urgently need a good recipe for a 8ft live baiting rod for a overhead the blank is a 7 wrap

You are far better off doing thorough static testing using the reel and line class you intend on using. Also the intended person to use the rod should be consulted in deciding the grip and reel seat positioning.

[conan]

the bloke has already put the grips and reel seat on and amazing enough he has got it on its bone

[conan]

It is a synderglass blank model unknown but it is definitely a 7 wrap the bloke that owns the blank has already put the grips and reel seat on and the mesurement from the tip to the front of the reel seat is 2.040 or 80and 1/4 inches

[BenatCoffs]

the bloke has already put the grips and reel seat on and amazing enough he has got it on its bone

Rod's don't necessarily need to be built on the backbone, and rather the straightest axis should be located.

Regardless of what has been written in the past, the line passing through the guides is the biggest determiner of the arc of the rod, not where they are placed in relation to the backbone.

Look down the rod and find which way it curves, build a spinning rod on the outside of the curve, and a overhead rod on the inside of the curve. Weight of the guides will serve to straighten the blank.

Only time backbone really comes into effect is in casting, with super ultralight gear and flyrods. And even then it wouldn't be noticed by average casters.

Rods not built on the curve, will tend to not be accurate compared to other rods built on the curve (that is not to say you will not be accurate with that rod)

If you are building average rods for average people, then build on the backbone as that is what they expect. If you are building pro rods for pro's then do everything you can to keep an edge, your pro team will appreciate it.

[DR]

Rod's don't necessarily need to be built on the backbone, and rather the straightest axis should be located.

Regardless of what has been written in the past, the line passing through the guides is the biggest determiner of the arc of the rod, not where they are placed in relation to the backbone.

Look down the rod and find which way it curves, build a spinning rod on the outside of the curve, and a overhead rod on the inside of the curve. Weight of the guides will serve to straighten the blank.

Only time backbone really comes into effect is in casting, with super ultralight gear and flyrods. And even then it wouldn't be noticed by average casters.

Rods not built on the curve, will tend to not be accurate compared to other rods built on the curve (that is not to say you will not be accurate with that rod)

If you are building average rods for average people, then build on the backbone as that is what they expect. If you are building pro rods for pro's then do everything you can to keep an edge, your pro team will appreciate it.

you don't think that having the spine offset on a heavy overhead makes any difference to the rod? that it won't cause it to want to twist in your hand so that you are fighting the rod as well as the fish & causing a bit of stress on the blank as it seesaws back & forth from trying to go to its natural position when loaded to one that is fighting against itself?

lots of schools of thought out there..

[BenatCoffs]

you don't think that having the spine offset on a heavy overhead makes any difference to the rod? that it won't cause it to want to twist in your hand so that you are fighting the rod as well as the fish & causing a bit of stress on the blank as it seesaws back & forth from trying to go to its natural position when loaded to one that is fighting against itself?

lots of schools of thought out there..

Makes even less difference on heavier rods as the uprated pressure of the line on the guides on top of the rod is what is twisting the rod, not the spine/guide relationship. This is why spiral wrapped rods are so effective, the torque is applied in the same manner as gravity, rather than against it - they are just so stable under load .

Give it a go, any thoughts of back bone will be long gone...

[Stuart]

Benatcoffs

I know what you’re saying in terms of blank curve, how ever the spine still plays a predominant roll in rod construction wether the person using it be a pro or even an average person. I’m not to sure what you’re getting at by stating that an average rod builder should build an average rod for average fisherman. I have been building rods for 20 years and may I add most of that time has been spent as a full time rod builder. I consider myself a specialist rod builder, which is not just designing and building rods but also blanks for my own range and other companies under contract. When I build a rod for any one it will be the best it can be no matter the ability of that person.

I totally understand the curve you are speaking of and even how the blank becomes that way, but to say that it will be much better than building either on the spine or opposite the spine shows a lack of knowledge and understanding. You shouldn’t start making statements that people should forget what they have read and start taking what you have said as gospel. Perhaps you can take the time and explain to all the average people out their how this curve is formed in blank, hell even I cant wait. I’m not trying to belittle you here mate, but can I suggest you pick your words a bit better before you post them here. Many people here on this forum are great rod builder, and the amount of time it has taken them to get to were they are spines me out. They are not your average rod builder and if some of them keep the art as part of their lives they will soon be up there with some of the best.


Stuart Mackenzie
Precision Rods

[BenatCoffs]

Stuart, I appreciate your comments.

I am an average caster, I think 'score' when I hit the target, but there are plenty of blokes out there that are 'pro' casters, those are the guys that expect repeatability in the rods they buy.

Three people I look up to in rod building are Tom Kirkman, Paul Kneller, and Ian Miller. Their thoughts on the spining of rods and why are hidden in the threads at rodbuilding.org. I don't profess to understand the physics or mechanics of it, but I do know that since forgetting about spine in building rods that I haven't noticed the rod trying to jump out of my hands, and I have noticed an increased predictability in the accuracy of the rod - this may just be because I am using better and better blanks, or as I cast more I am getting better. But I am speaking honestly when I say that building on or off the spine, for me, has shown no difference in how the rod behaves in the hand.

my comment


If you are building average rods for average people, then build on the backbone as that is what they expect. If you are building pro rods for pro's then do everything you can to keep an edge, your pro team will appreciate it.

Was to say that the general 'average' population believe that a rod should be built on the spine, so for that customer build it where they expect, otherwise they may feel dudded in the product - especially if they are spending a lot and a mate then points out "it's not built on the spine", the pro guys want their rods to be repeatable, so build in that vain for them, they couldn't care less what their mate thinks of the spine so long as the rod does what they want. That's all I was getting at.

At no point did I call for what I have said is as you say 'gospel' The bold statement I made was "Regardless of what has been written in the past, the line passing through the guides is the biggest determiner of the arc of the rod, not where they are placed in relation to the backbone." And that statement is 100% accurate.

I have no real concern for how how others build rods. But rather just trying to increase active thought as to what other options may be out there. SA Angler mag in 1982 published a story on these new fangled Graphite rods, that are always snapping and feel wrong. I imagine the author would be humoured to revisit that article in todays tackle store...

But then, that is the beauty of internet forums though, more schools of thought than you can post a stick at...

I guess thats why I moved away from Ausfish a few years back, because OH MY GOD! I killed a cod. Tasted good too...

[BenatCoffs]

When I build a rod for any one it will be the best it can be no matter the ability of that person.

Out of interest, if you chose to build a rod off the spine as you felt that suited the blank best, and the customer was not happy as they believe a rod should be on the spine, how would you handle that situation?

I wasn't questioning the ability of the person as a fisherperson, but it only takes a few minutes to read any internet forum on any topic and see how many people post to validate a purchase. ie, I bought Item A, for $$$ what do you think? Is this a good deal?

First poster to say, "oh yeah I know them, none of their rods are built on the spine"... That is a comment with negative tones, the person seeking validation will often be no longer happy with their purchase.

It is unfortunate, but in building that rod the best it can be, is a potential harm causer for your business, so we all build rods they way they are expected to be built when they are going to your 'average' validation seeking fisherfolk...

I might just shoosh now!

[Stuart]

Can I suggest you don’t look up to anyone, find out the facts for your self and you will become a much better rod builder? Relying on others that may or may not know the fundamentals of blank design, rod design and so on will only lead you up the wrong path. There is plenty of stuff on the net these days but the real hands on gritty stuff are extremely rare, like cutting patterns and rolling blanks.

Stu

[Stuart]

Out of interest, if you chose to build a rod off the spine as you felt that suited the blank best, and the customer was not happy as they believe a rod should be on the spine, how would you handle that situation?

I wasn't questioning the ability of the person as a fisherperson, but it only takes a few minutes to read any internet forum on any topic and see how many people post to validate a purchase. ie, I bought Item A, for $$$ what do you think? Is this a good deal?

First poster to say, "oh yeah I know them, none of their rods are built on the spine"... That is a comment with negative tones, the person seeking validation will often be no longer happy with their purchase.

It is unfortunate, but in building that rod the best it can be, is a potential harm causer for your business, so we all build rods they way they are expected to be built when they are going to your 'average' validation seeking fisherfolk...

I might just shoosh now!


I do build as stated before rods off the spine, in fact to be more specific I build some styles of rods on the opposite side of the spine. If a customer wants to know why this has happened then I explain in depth as to why and the extra performance they will get out of it and not what I think. Every thing I do has to be backed up by fact, not fiction, which would be bad for my business. Building rods to their up most best cant be bad for any one mate, I use the best of the best, the best materials in my blanks, the best coatings and adhesives. How do I know if this is good practice? Simple, I never see that rod again. I have never had a broken rod, touch wood, I have never had to repair any thing on any of my rods, build it right the first time. I can’t be doing to much wrong, I have been selling rods all around the world for many years with no complaints.

Stu

[DR]

i personally Believe. that all the comment about building off the spine is sales talk & laziness coming from the need to maximise profits, as i said, personal opinion.. i remember being told Loomis don't have noticable spines & that is why they are like they are, comments coming from high profile people who have connections by way of sales or sponsorship will say anything to keep the money coming in. the general public do not want to appear uninformed so they start sprouting what they have read & heard without any real hands on experience, & so it goes, like a snowball rolling, soon it is gospel. i have heard some real crap come out of the mouths of one extremely high profile fishing journo, purely for personal gain & then when things got a bit tough he used his position to belittle another..

so what am i babbling about... don't believe all the BS these people say... do the experiments yourself & make your own decisions..

[finga]

so what am i babbling about... don't believe all the BS these people say... do the experiments yourself & make your own decisions..
Here we go again....;D
I just happen to have 2 7' (or was that 6'6":-/ ) two piece blanks with the same specs....
Time to build one on the spine and one off I reckon.
That'll have to wait til next week though...going away tomorrow for awhile.
Actually I'll do one top half on the spine and one top half on the curvey bit.
And the two bottom bits...one foamy softly feely EVA type stuff and one wood and see what difference that does as well.
I love experiments ;D
So Ben or Stuart or any bugger...can you explain the build on the curve concept a bit better please??

[Stuart]

A natural curve in the blank wether it is in the tip or over its length is another manufacturing fault. It can be one of several things, 1- It could be caused from not packing the cloth consistently through that area. This causes material to tighten in one area that has been rolled the correct way while the top section is looser which will make it creep to one side. 2- The cellophane they use to compact all the cloth while its in the oven is a heat shrink clear material which squeezes all the air and access resin from the cloth as it backs for three hours. If the cello is packed to loose through the tip section but the tighter as it progresses down the blank it will cause the tip section to heal to one side.3 – The mandrel, which is used to wrap the cloth around to give you your taper and action is in dire need of straightening. You can use this curve in your rod building endeavours but it realy means squat. After 20 years building rods I can assure you all the back bone has a more drastic effect on medium to heavier rods than utilizing this curve. At the end of the day you can do and use what ever the hell you want.


Stu

[Cheech]

Something I have wondered about for years but been afraid to ask, what actually is the backbone. How do you see it or find it. I would have assumed it was the core of the blank, but do not understand all the talk about building on it as I would have thought it would be the same on all sides.

[BenatCoffs]

This should cover it

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=114408

[Cheech]

Thanks Ben. By the way, I know what you mean about the cod. Same thing happenned a year or so earlier with jacks. They were treated like dolphins, and god help anyone that said they killed one. Then a picture of massive schools of them by a scuba diver on ausfish was posted. Everyone went quiet after that and it was ok to take a jack after that.