Stripper guide con?

[dogsbody]

While my father was purchasing a new reel he got onto the subject of the stripper guide on a rod. The chap at the store said that a large stripper guide is a furphy and said it was proven that you get more distance in a cast from a small guide. Now i have not heard of this before and want to know if this is the case. Anyone heard this or know from first hand experience?


Dave.

[Lucky_Phill]

It depends on your reel and rod setup.

Alvey reels have a large diameter, therefore require a large stripper guide.

Threadlines are similar requiring a large diameter stripper, but not as big as an alvey.

Baitcasters are in the category of not needing large guides as the point of which the line leaves the reel is close to the rod.

All you have to do is think of how the line comes off the reel in the casting position.

All....IMO.... and as far as I know.

Phill

[finga]

Yep, I agree with ya Phil.
The way I look at it is 'is the line going to slap the rod on the way off' if yes I like a stripper to stop the rod slap. If not let it be.

[DR]

;Di hate disagreeing , but, i have to disagree :P the longest cast i have seen came off a 6" alvey through a #20 extra high mount stripper. the cast was made by the then Qld casting champion..
from my experience a #40 stripper is all thats really required..that is the largest i have ever used & theres been no complaints from sidecast users.

i still believe it's a personal thing, if you think you need a bigger one , you probably do..8-)

[HST]

DR you are spot on ,all this large striper talk is very old school ,no bigger than a 20 is fine but placement of this stripper is only achievable by first getting the choker guide placed right ,all other guides placements can be worked from this point ,

[dogsbody]

Phil the discussion went along the lines if it didn't matter if it was an alvey a small stripper was the go. Seems this has merit as DR has seen and placement needs to be right as per HST suggests.


Dave.

[Owen]

The trouble with these generalisations by the "experts" is that they often don't even ask what kind of reel is going on it, what line size, what weight will it be casting etc etc.
Factory made rods are a compromise. They want to make a rod that will work OK whether you bung a 6" alvey or a 4000 spin reel on it. Hence it will probably not be set up right for either if the n'th degree of performance is your goal.

The big stripper guides are more in line with the "cone of flight" theory which doesn't have much following these days.
In fact if you look at the new concept guide theory, then once you've choked the line down then the size of the guides need not be much bigger than the tip the whole way.

I did a spiral wrap rod and can't see any appreciable difference in casting distance with that either on the same line class and lure size.

[Lucky_Phill]

Interesting points Dave.

I suppose it does depend on where the placement of the stripper guide is.

I put a #40 high foot guide on a 11ft Ugly stick and the casting distance increased by at least 15-20 mtrs.

I am now wondering about the ' theory ' behind the non-large stripper guide.

having said that, this question is in relation to the average fisho and his average rod.

So, I suppose my question is now, does one remove the big guide from our surf rods to get our baits to the ' back bank ' ?

regarding the long cast:-

was the guide placed in same position as standard stripper ?
what type of line was used ?
what weight was used ?
what alvey was used ?
what recipe of guides were used?
would the long cast rod be useful as a fishing rod, if the guides were setup for casting and not allowing the rod to perform to it;s intended purpose as a fishing/ fighting rod ?
( I hope you know what I am getting here Dave ???? )

I suppose more questions would be :-

Would it be detrimental to the average fisho to have a large stripper guide on his rod ?

Why are surf rods ( shelf ) sold with large guides on ?

And the final question, how much more distance did the long cast champ get with the smaller guide on than the large stripper ?

This could make an interesting video, having it set up and watching in slow mo, the line racing through the stripper and then through a smaller diameter one !!!... maybe that way we could see what the friction/ non-friction aspects of the different guides are.:o :o Sounds like a project for some Physics Uni Student !!!

Cheers Phill

[HST]

that video footage was done back in the early 80.s when the this concept was been used in Japan ,when you find a copy of it you will see where all your friction is ,

shelf rods are just that old technology ,

the rest of the world you can buy today's tackle

In Australia you can buy top fly ,game ,bream and bass rods try and buy todays surf rods ,We are a dumping ground for old new tackle ,

[DR]

jeez Phill your stretching the old grey matter now. I will try from memory as it was a while ago..i don't like getting too involved in this sort of discussion as there are so many opinions out there as to which is right, my opinions are from what i found..

I am now wondering about the ' theory ' behind the non-large stripper guide.
from memory it was to stop the line from flogging on the blank by choking it quickly, & it worked..



having said that, this question is in relation to the average fisho and his average rod.

So, I suppose my question is now, does one remove the big guide from our surf rods to get our baits to the ' back bank ' ?
truthfully, i don't know that it would make much difference to the average fisho without him changing his casting style a bit.

regarding the long cast:-

was the guide placed in same position as standard stripper ?
pretty much, i built him a prototype on a 14' blank that was developed with him in mind.

what type of line was used ?
Mono, don't remember the strength.

what weight was used ?
again, i don't remember, but it was reasonable.

what alvey was used ?
it was a 6" alvey, don't ask which model, as they are all the same to me, i don't, haven't, never will own one ;D having said that, it was 'hotted up' a bit by shaving the spool so the angle the line left was not as acute as the standard, but was still a BIG loop coming off the reel.

what recipe of guides were used?
was what was considered to get the best out of the blanks loading capacity, was a few more guides than a standard sidecast rod. the stripper stood about 3" tall so the centre of the loop was similar to the centre of the stripper & had to be imported as they weren't & probably still aren't available out here

would the long cast rod be useful as a fishing rod, if the guides were setup for casting and not allowing the rod to perform to it;s intended purpose as a fishing/ fighting rod ?
it was built to suit the caster, but would have worked perfectly fine to fish with.


( I hope you know what I am getting here Dave ???? )

I suppose more questions would be :-

Would it be detrimental to the average fisho to have a large stripper guide on his rod ?
a little bit but probably not really worth worrying about.

Why are surf rods ( shelf ) sold with large guides on ?
habit.ever tried getting a queenslander to switch from fourex or bundy to another beer or rum, no matter how good the other one is, they won't change or even try it;D if it works why look for something else..

And the final question, how much more distance did the long cast champ get with the smaller guide on than the large stripper ?
didn't see him cast with a standard/ large stripper. these casts were in a paddock about the length of a footy field, at the end were trees about 30-50' tall, the cast was way above the trees & hadn't started it's descent when we lost site of it :o it was a huge cast. again the casting style would not suit fishing it was a purpose developed cast..

as i said above there will be those that disagree, but that is what discussion is for, i can only comment on my personal experience.
i have found there was so much BS involved in the fishing tackle industry when i was part of it, it was laughable..egos are an interesting thing, but that is another whole discussion ;D

hope i have explained myself for you..
cheers




Cheers Phill

[finga]

This has been all excellent to read.
I love new thoughts :)
There was a bit here a while again about this but I forgot to go back and read again and understand...slug I am.

Another experiment has entered my tiny brain.
I'll try and find these high guides mentioned and build a blank I have for beach use twice.
Once old school and once new school (new school last as it'll probably stay that way :)) and see what the difference is.
Is there any difference in reel seat placement and butt configuration??
Any hints on what these guides were??
Realistically the experiment is easy to do. We're not talking about 3 days of binding here just and hour or so....so what's to loose....nothing and everything to gain :)
Excellent :)
Cheers Scott

[craftycarp]

ok yes I am a bit off a beginner at rod building.. but whats the differene between a choker guide and a stripper guide? I also have it on good authority (HST) that reversing the first guide (stripper guide?) helps with feeding the line into the fist guide. Anyone know why this is the case?

[HST]

Alan thats also spot on ,XTR

[Willo]

The theory as I understand it from the US rod building sites is that a smaller stripper guide chokes the line down quickly and gets it under control causeing less friction on the rest of the guides on a cast.
Thats the theory ??
Will try it on the next spin rod I build a see how it go's
Willo

[Lucky_Phill]

Thanks Dave, all info appreciated.

Cheers Phill

[dogsbody]

A lot of food for thought here but at the end of the day how much extra distance would you get and do you really need it. I suppose it depends on what you want out of your rod and what type of fishing you mainly do with it.

So many variables come into play that could only answered by trial and error.

Gee Phill you did start me thinking about a lot of stuff.

If Scott does his experiment results will be interesting.

Crafty i believe the reversing of the guide is that it has less surface area of the foot to add friction to cut down distance.


Dave.

[HST]

Dave no its not about fricion ,ill fill you in later on why and how it works

[Lucky_Phill]

On a side note, I was in a tackle shop ( toy store ) this afternoon and saw the two different surf rods side by side.

Amazing..............was the price.... $230. for the ' long cast ' type. Also saw my first 3 piece surf rod. !!!!!!

Phill

[finga]

I'll get the blank out in the morning and put some details of it up here.
If you fellas can then tell me what guides to bung on it I would be very appreciative.
I'm looking forward to this :)
Which shop was that Phil?? I might have to go and have a gander :)

[HST]

Reversing the striper guide is a quick fix fo a rod that has a badly placed chocker guide ,

troubles yo Ger from incorrect placement of a chocker guide

line tangles during the cast

so called wind knots

line tangles due to excess line twist (alvey)

tangles due to a late hit in the cast

these all can be over come to a good drgee thru reversing the striper .

why it works is simple when you are using a rod set up to chock the line you dont want to chock the cast as this will slow the line flow to much and the line going thru the stripper will go past it and will have to come back thru the stripper ,this is where it all comes undone .line cant get back thru the guide tangling around the front foot ,by placing the guide backwards yo then are allowing the line to flow back the the face of the guide with a smooth flow ,

this method was used to great success in the early 80's by 7 times world distance casting champion , as when you hit a rod very hard and late with a slow tip recovery you will blow up a spinning reel every cast ,reverse the stripper and you might blow up 1 in 20 ,

[finga]

What's a chocker guide?? :-/
Just been down and looked at the blank.
It's a 12' Wilson (if I remember as it was the early '90's when I bought it :-/). It's a light blank with a light action ie twitchy.
Any 'how to' theories about guide placement ie stripper, chocker (what-ever that is) would be appreciated.
I have a fair few old guides and some new ones so the experiment should only be a matter of binding new guides on.
I reckon I could rustle up a 6" Alvey from somewhere inside ::)
Wood (silky oak or cedar) or bakelite or glass???
I love experiments...it's better then mowing the lawn anyways ;D

[grave41]

I built a 12 ft loomis with fuji lowriders .the first 2 reversed and the rest as per normal to use with a spinning reel.ialso tried this blank with normal guide con figuration first. I got 5-12 m more using the lowrider guides.
Hope this helps Graham.
Ps this blank also needs a pound of lead to get it to work.

[dogsbody]

Hey Scotty how goes it,

The choker guide is the first guide. I got some measurements here for you to try. Starting from the tip 150-190-230-280-320-430mm should get the ball rolling for you. Good luck.

Thanks HST i remember there was a chap in the fishing mag who was building his rods with the reversed guide i should try a dig it out and take a gander.


Dave.

[finga]

So the choker can also be called a stripper??
Gees I'm dumb on all this technical mumbo jumbo talk.
Guess what I'm doing tomorrow??
MkI is on the cards I'd say. :)
Any recommendations and guide sizes??
If not I'll play it by ear.
Cheers and ta Dave :)

[HST]

The chocker guide is just that a chocker ,2 or 3 third guide up from the reel ,

The stripper is the first guide from the the reel .

have a read what Ive said about placement ,

Ive been working with this on comp casting rods since 1992 ,to date the best cast achieved in comp has been 237 mts on 8 lbs fireline and 75 grams ,

you must get the chocker guide in the right place first ,ALL OTHER GUIDES ARE PLACED FROM THIS POINT .

things that make a difference to the chocker been 2nd or 3rd guide up is length of the rod and high or low reel seat ,

working this on a soft tip glass rod will not be of any use to distance as the tip has to have a feast recovery ,

guides should be LCSG or you can try a HVSG 20 as a stripper and run alcanites as the rest chocker should be a 12 to get most out of the placement for fishing set as well as distance .

[finga]

Thanks HST :)
That's cleared a lot up. Champion!! :)

[DR]

The chocker guide is just that a chocker ,2 or 3 third guide up from the reel ,

The stripper is the first guide from the the reel .


you must get the chocker guide in the right place first ,ALL OTHER GUIDES ARE PLACED FROM THIS POINT .

things that make a difference to the chocker been 2nd or 3rd guide up is length of the rod and high or low reel seat ,

.

Hi HST, can you cast some light on the reason that the choker is 2nd or 3rd guide & how the difference from the reel seat & rod length is so important??

i would have thought the stripper would be more important, i imagined, if it is placed wrong it can cause problems which would almost make any difference where the next guide is irrelevant as you would be losing speed through the stripper anyway..

[HST]

the stripper is there as a guide to start the ball rolling,it dose not want to put undue friction on the line coming of the spool ,just guide the line to the point of intersection that is where the chocker is mounted ,longrer rod will be over 4.5 mts .high mount to low mount will be between 600 to 800 ,difference ,the angel of the reel spool shaft is what tells you where the line intersects the blank .thus you can work your guides from this point ,

[craftycarp]

http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/newguide.html

Here is another explanation of what HST is saying. In the 1st picture you will see where the chocker guide needs to be placed. It is placed relative to the reel. The thing I have learnt about the fuji NCG system is that it is very specific about where the chocker guide has to go and a rod basically has to be built for 1 reel size only. You can use other reel sizes but to get max distance it has to be built for that reel.

[dogsbody]

I never knew about the point of intersection, you learn all the time here. Good stuff.


Dave.

[mikeyh]

Have to say Im with DR....and maybe we were watching at the same casting comp. Showing my age here...I was about 15 years old and wrote to Modern Fishing at the time to find out about this rod that Ross Garven (then NSW casting champ) was using. He was a really great fella and put me on to these rods - FSU4120 + 3' extensions. First guide (stripper) #20 Fuji...with 6" Alvey. He had done all the high speed photo routine and showed that a small guide was the go as long as it was at least half way up the rod (which is where things start with an FSU because taper is so fast). He used them in comps and also for fishing....he and his brother John were legendary pioneer beach and rock fisherman in the 70's. I built quite a number of these for family and friends and always used them for surf /rock fishing in N NSW. I have never seen any "conventional" rod outcast this setup.

I agree with all the other comments - I think the large runners stayed in "fashion" because much off the shelf gear sticks to old recipes and many "off the shelf fishos" dont like change. It was all part of the cone of line from reel to tip theory...which has now been shown to be bollocks. I use small "strippers" - never bigger than #25 on every rod I build....and never had a prob. The smaller runners are lighter..and when we get to SiC guides in big sizes $$$(ouch :'( ).
Anyway that's my 10c worth........

[HST]

Ross Garven still will out cast 90% all casters of any age in a comp today , but i think you will find he uses a PC 4400CC for 2 ozs and a PC4400CK for 4ozs , or his Ryobi

[finga]

Well I tried the little experiment yesterday.
First cab off the rank was the 'new fangled theory' option using the point of intersection as seen in the setup Craftycarp put the link up for and that setup went really well.
We tried to caste a No3 snapper sinker first and we thought we were going to run out of line on the 8000 reel and the canal is only so long in a straight line...so downsizing of the weight was called for.
The easiest way we found to judge the distance was turns of the handle to get the No1 snapper sinker back in. And it was lots with the new setup.
Then we reverted back to the 'old way' and tried again. Noticeable difference in casting distance...really noticeable difference.
The heavier the lead the more remarkable was the difference.
Thanks guys for the information.
That particular rod is going back to the 'old way' as it's a restoration but there's another blank downstairs with new fangled way marked all over it :)

As mikeyh says....the price difference in buying a set of guides will also be a very welcoming remarkable difference. I can go up in quality in both guides and fishability without any difference in pricing.

Next problem is to get my hands to cast one of these beauties more then 3 times. :(

Again thanks for taking the time all those who contributed...your bloods worth bottling :)

[dogsbody]

Thanks Scotty for the effort you put into this little experiment. Interesting results. My surf rod is a bit overdue for a spruce up, might have to make a few adjustments. ;) Thanks again.


Dave.

[craftycarp]

That stuff I posted from the rodbuilding site is only one persons interpretation and it worked well on on the blank I had taped up and ready to be built up. Then I talked to HST made a few of the mods he suggested and the results were even better. HST I really think its time you posted up a few pics and an explantation of what you do? Then again you might give out a few too many secrets to the competition ? ;)

[HST]

craftycarp,ive been working with this line of thought since 1991 ,there are a lot of rod builders out there in the world that believe its a new thing ,its been used since 1980"S in Japan comps with smoke booms and other casting weights that we wont see for many years yet , ,Im more than happy to point you in the right direction as this only help us all in buying easy distance and improving our rod building technology to today line of thought ,,

Ps. always cast high and look and listen to what your placement is telling you before binding them on ,