Seaworthy Cetificates

[juju]

While on a job today this guy was showing his boat that he is selling for $7000...
Looking at it id say it would be mid 80s vintage...and in the price range of allot of first baot buyers......ok so there is a fair chance that the person who buys the boat will have little exp in boats...he takes it home and sets off on the sunday with the family....lets say he gets pulled over by teh water police...in the case of this boat the life jackets whilst looking good (still in the original plastic bags) would not cover him in the bay ...so there he gets a fine.......his fault for not checking the regs ...yep sure....but what about the outboard?...could ahve some probelm...dies on him and he has to be towed back in.........he might have even ran out to moreton, ......broke down on the way back to bribie say. in a 4 foot chop...next thing hes up on the banks where gilligans isl used to be....why because his anchor only had about 30 feet of 6mm rope attached to 1 mt of dog chain...
Now if the boat had to have a certificate for sale these thing could be clearly pointed out.....im not saying that it should fall on the seller to have to get the work done...let the buyer be know that when he wants to register the boat he will need to produce evidence that it meets a min standard.........i reckon a certificate every 5 years on all boats with the rego renewal would be a good thing.......i know...money maker for the government, and the boat dealers.....but if some of the money rasied by the certificates went back into the VMR say everyone would benifet..
The 5 year bit could become part of a normal service....
Just think of the number of what are really unsafe boats that you see, if they were cars would they be on the road...
Just something to think about...

[Brumby]

No way, I go out on the water to get away from officialdom!

Seriously though, the law is a pretty blunt instrument for enforcing that uncommon quality - common sense. I reckon you will end up with all sorts of unintended consequences, just to cater for the odd idiot who doesn't check things properly.

[juju]

As i said juts throwing it out there as a thinker...in the world we live in now where someone has to be held for blame about everything and how you cant do this and cant do that...its a wonder it hasnt been put forward by a office dude trying to justify his position.......would be some merrit in it.....but it would sure stir things up a bit...

[Kleyny]

IMO
Cant make laws for everything that people do (stupid or not)

If the government wont make cars get a roadworthy every year, you've got two chances of getting them for a boat.
People die from unroadworthy cars allot more than from unseaworthy boats.
Not a bad idea though, just cant see it ever happening.
I personally check my gear every second major trip.

Just my opinion

neil

[Brumby]

As i said juts throwing it out there as a thinker...in the world we live in now where someone has to be held for blame about everything and how you cant do this and cant do that...its a wonder it hasnt been put forward by a office dude trying to justify his position.......would be some merrit in it.....but it would sure stir things up a bit...

Mate, couldn't agree more. I shouldn't complain too loudly, because the "blame someone" culture keeps me in beer and the boat in fuel, but it drives me nuts that any little injury, however stupid someone has been, can result in a claim. It's always the "principle" of the matter until the discussion comes down to dollars and cents.

[Foxy4]

Sure is something to ponder over

[ffejsmada]

We've got enough rules and regulations now in every day life let alone in the boating world.
We don't want more sh!t to contend with. Leave well alone I reckon.

Jeff.

[captain rednut]

i strongly agree! seaworthys could only save lives! i spend a lot of time at tangalooma wrecks in summer when the storms are about and during or after the storm whilst your helping save someones boat, you here the story about how they just bought it that week and this was there first time out, and how they assumed that is ready to go and they proceed to show you the small sand anchor on telsra rope, no chain suited to a 12ft tinny in a 20 ft boat and how the bilge pump didnt work either.no radio lights dont work and on close inspection the transom appears suspect due to the massive stainless plate preventing the motor bolts pulling thru and to top it off you ask which insurance hes with to contact because he drifted into my boat and skeg punching a hole in the side of our boat he replies i havent got any the person i bought the boat off didnt mention that! well i believe yes he should have done more research before going to see but thats the idiot factor? that will always be around! but if seaworthys existed maybe my $1800 worth of damage may not of occured? thanks cr

[Grand_Marlin]

Watch this space .... seaworthy certificates are already on the agenda of the government and will be here sometime, just a matter of when, not if.

Cheers

Pete

[Kleyny]

Watch this space .... seaworthy certificates are already on the agenda of the government and will be here sometime, just a matter of when, not if.

Cheers

Pete

Interesting.

Like i said in my post the QLD goverment for some reason will not do annual roadworthies on cars. Yet they are thinking seaworthies for boats.
It maybe same as the cars now, you only need one when selling the rig.

Like you said its a case of watch this space i guess

[wiz]

I think it is a good idea, in NSW a road worthy is required each year, this keeps the slack arses off the road. People who regularly maintain their car are not really penalised except for the pink slip fee. Anything that is mechanical requires maintenance (ie a standard) for it to operate correctly and reliably. This is something that I feel is absolutely necessary for a vessel used in areas like the ocean and the bay. Whether it is stupidity ignorance or what ever the excuse is, there needs to be a "standard", because the lack of responsability of these few usually puts someone else's life in danger. MO

Cheers Dan

[peterbo3]

Watch this space .... seaworthy certificates are already on the agenda of the government and will be here sometime, just a matter of when, not if.

Cheers

Pete
Well,
Another reason to believe that those in the Govt & the relevant agency are total & absolute Di*kwits. A safety certificate for boats no less >:( >:(. The certificate needs to apply to the OPERATORS. Then there would be no need for a certificate relating to the boat. And not the B/S licences that are being issued at the moment.
There is a ton of info out there relating to the safe operation of small craft. But how much enforcement happens? Not a real lot in my view. You cannot legislate for experience, common sense or to eradicate stupidity.
So you get your B/S licence, but you are not allowed to run out & buy a 7M rocket with 250 ponies behind it. You have to serve your time with a smaller boat in a restricted area. Too hard you say. Well, that is how it works with cars & motorbikes. But safety certificates for boats......................give me a break :o

[captain rednut]

boat licences teach you the basics in navigation! what or who teaches you how to have a safe boat that are seaworthy? i cant believe any body would assume that all first time boaties are meant to know how to determine an unsafe boat? thats why people get away with selling heaps of crap with rotten hulls to unsuspecting people whom just dont know any better? sorry but some how the message has got to get thru and maybe seaworthys may be the cure? thanks cr

[Fish Guts]

Well,
Another reason to believe that those in the Govt & the relevant agency are total & absolute Di*kwits. A safety certificate for boats no less >:( >:(. The certificate needs to apply to the OPERATORS. Then there would be no need for a certificate relating to the boat. And not the B/S licences that are being issued at the moment.
There is a ton of info out there relating to the safe operation of small craft. But how much enforcement happens? Not a real lot in my view. You cannot legislate for experience, common sense or to eradicate stupidity.
So you get your B/S licence, but you are not allowed to run out & buy a 7M rocket with 250 ponies behind it. You have to serve your time with a smaller boat in a restricted area. Too hard you say. Well, that is how it works with cars & motorbikes. But safety certificates for boats......................give me a break :o


Pete,

I couldnt have said it better. Its not the vessels in question most of the time, its the uneducated operators. There needs to be big reform in licensing. Doing reverse figure of eights and picking up a buoy in a 14ft tinnie is hardly conclusive of ones capability to drive a boat. And to think that 2 days of doing a powerboat course can enable one to privatly operate a vessel in excess of 60ft and however much horsepower you want, stinks !

Before safety certs for boats, ensure the tight arse dealers selling new boat packages fit the boats out with decent safety gear. Not like a quintrex dealer who supplied me with an anchor capable of holding a canoe in a bathtup, let alone a 6m boat in swell. And make vhf's mandatory over a certain size boat. A 660 crusier whittley doesnt even come standard with a vhf for gods sake and there worth in excess of 100k.


cheers

fish guts

[Kleyny]

boat licences teach you the basics in navigation! what or who teaches you how to have a safe boat that are seaworthy? i cant believe any body would assume that all first time boaties are meant to know how to determine an unsafe boat? thats why people get away with selling heaps of crap with rotten hulls to unsuspecting people whom just dont know any better? sorry but some how the message has got to get thru and maybe seaworthys may be the cure? thanks cr

Sorry to keep going back to the car roadworthy tangent. IMO in QLD they don't work. People still get sold cars that are down right dangerous. this will just open up another way for "dodgy" people to make a killing out of the unsuspecting.

If people don't know what they are looking at go out and buy things without getting them checked out by someone who does. More the fool them in my opinion.

As i said earlier you cant legislate for idiots/ ignorance etc.

[seatime]

Some astute observations above, and not such a far fetched idea.
As was mentioned, seaworthiness is covered in existing regulations. It's part of every owner/master/skipper's General Safety Obligation (read "Duty of Care") to ensure their 'ship' is Safe, Properly Equipped & Crewed and Operated in a Safe Manner. That covers it all really, guess it comes down to interpreting the duty of care obligations.
Ensuring a ship (boat,vessel, etc) is Safe, is ensuring it's seaworthiness. It's the operators responsibility.
Whether or not every operator is capable of determining seaworthiness is perhaps another issue.
regards
Steve

[krazyfisher]

i think that would be a great idea for boats but lets not bring extras like jackets into it remember you dont have to sell a boat with them.

[Camo]

Seaworthy certificates, what would be the definition of seaworthy? Would it be that the boat must be able to stay afloat. It couldn't be much more that that because of the vast difference in boat types, uses, and construction. Would a sailboat need one, or a dingy or a rowboat? How about a canoe, would it require one?

With motor vehicles some things are constant, you always have brakes steering seatbelts, tyres etc, which must be checked to pass a roadworthy. For a boat to be safe on the water you don't necessarily need a motor, or steering. Different levels of safety gear are required depending on where you go, smooth water etc. What is the constant across all types of watercraft that must be checked to decide on seaworthiness’? I really don’t think this is a good idea, it just sounds like more bureaucracy and yet another imposition on boat owners.

Camo

[Chimo]

Having a licence to operate a vessel implies, No, imposes a responsibility to ensure safety and seaworthy-ness in the circumstances that the vessel is being used for.

Levels of equipment mandated for different situations are specified and remain the licenced operator's "duty of care".

If you are talking about a certificate of soundness of a vessel, eg is the transom going to fall off due to rot then a buyer would, as he / she is now, be well served to get an inspection from a qualified marine surveyor; this is not the province of a govt department now and why would you choose to make it so?

People do have to be responsible and while caveat emptor no longer strictly applies common sense is a capability that grows with experience and age.

This site is a great example of pooled common sense and experience maturing, being acquired and also being shared. Lets leave govt to what it does best and surveying boats is not it IMHO

Stepping off soap box now; thankyou in anticipation for only throwing soft fruit or tomatoes!

Cheers
Chimo

[seatime]

Seaworthiness has such a wide ranging meaning, or definitions, it would be difficult to place into one written legislated document.
One definition used in maritime law cases is "the vessel is fit to encounter the ordinary perils of the voyage". It generally is left to a court to decide if the ship was seaworthy or not.
Ensuring structural integrity would only be a part of the overall seaworthiness of the vessel. We would be looking along the same lines as commercial survey classifications to implement that kind of standard to recreational vessels.

[PADDLES]

i reckon it's a great idea. you only have to read through the posts on this site to see how many people have been dudded by either a dodgy dealer or a private individual at the point of sale to see that some form of regulation of the boating sales industry is required. it would solve all those trailer weight issues and ensure that boats were sold in a safe, roadworthy and seaworthy condition every time.

[Chimo]

Hi Paddles

So you too think that a person buying a boat; if they feel unsure or are new to the game or have doubts about the seaworthyness / state of the boat traler wts etc should get it checked?

Sounds reasonable to me too especially if the potoential buyer employs the assessor / surveyor to do the report for the buyer. Might cost a few dollars but would save heaps of hassels and would also educate "New Chums" (no offence) and stop them from being "Latest Chumps" (ditto)

Otherwise we are back were we started with issues like , Can we trust the vendor? is there stuff we are not being told about? etc etc.

I reckon its a bit like buying a house, employ your own agent to get you what you want, he works for you not the vendor.
Lots safer and less hassels and a better deal for me too.

Cheers
Chimo GOM esp in this cold weather!

[PADDLES]

G'day Chimo. I agree with you wholeheartedly. From what I can see, there's no regulation whatsoever on boating/marine equipment in this country (unless you are using the vessel commercially, in which case I think you need to get it surveyed). Even the power units (outboard or inboard) have no rules/standards applied to them in this country. Just like a roadie will give you maybe some peace of mind (and certainly someone to go back to if you end up with a lemon and the roadie is dodgy), some form of inspection for a boat at the time of purchase will unsure that you at least get something that is legal for towing on the road, in the case of a trailer boat, and has the correct safety gear for the size of vessel. By safety gear I mean a bilge pump, bucket, paddles etc. that are mandatory for any vessel. I don't mean lifejackets, epirb, nav gear etc. that can change with where you may be operating the vessel. The marine industry is basically self regulated, bordering on unregulated, and although there must be heaps of good operators out there I reckon the government needs to step in and give it a shake up. Look at anything else you may own, your house, your shed, your tv, your car, your bike, the list goes on, they're all inspected and tested to ensure that they are fit for use by the aussie public by some regulating authority. Your $50k boat (possibly the second most expensive thing you own next to your house) that your very life depends on every weekend isn't subject to any standards or scrutiny.

[Chimo]

Guys

Where the govt inspection concept falls down is the private sales.

I still reckon that buyers have to show some smarts and employ a surveyer etc if they are not sure. You will end up with a situation where you cannot sell second hand gear, boats etc if you insist on the govt being the inspector.

Won't work and really why the hell do you want more expensive Govt interference when a person employing their own inspector / surveyor will give a better and cheaper result for the affected indiividual.

I worked for Govt for nigh on forty yrs so I reckon I know what is within its capabilities and this isn't it...trust me!

Chimo

[peterbo3]

Your trailer (if over 750 kg gross) requires a Safety Certificate upon sale. Plus Qld Transport & police check ramps on occasion. My point is that a boat can be certified but may not be suitable for where it is going or the conditions on a given day.
If you take a 2WD car to Moreton Island & bog it in the sand, you will be laughed at. The car is bogged...........no more damage. Owner suffers massive loss of ego.
You take a safety-checked tinny across to Moreton & it turns nasty in the bay or you run out of fuel.............you may die. Others certainly have.
It is not about boats, only the people that operate them.