Suspension upgrade

[bungie]

I have a 2002 Hi-lux with a steel tray (heavy). I need to replace/upgrade the suspension.
She is used for work as a plumber, and then 4X4 and camping runs whenever I can escape the wife :D .
Good chance she will do a run up to Cape York with in the next 8 months.;D
Have had a suggestion of using air suspension as they are adjustable to suit my load at the time. Like these http://www.airbagman.com.au/Light%20Vehicle/autoriderite.html
Can anybody shed some light on these and maybe other systems

[BenDover]

The airbag suspension is for heavy heavy loads. As they just attach onto your leaf's as a helper. And ofcourse you can remove some of your leaves aswell. But they do not allow for extra suspension travel which is governed by the lenght of your leaf/flexibility and your shackle size. A steel tray isnt really heavy. So i would be going new leafs (a bit longer and more flexible). And longer shackles with greasable pins. Get your leafs and shackles first then cross your rear suspension up after removing the shocks and measure from centre of eye to eye (shocke bolt holes). And get ones that fit into both of those measurements. As for your front... Can only upgrade for hard torsion bars. But i wouldnt bother.. You can wind up your torsion bars to match the suspension height in your rear so it looks even. But then you will have to get a wheel and tow allignment. And then for travel in the front remove your upper and lower bump stops and replace with a thin layer of compact rubber instead. It works on a ratio of 1 to 3. So if you remove your bumpstops that eqaul 40!! then you will gain 120 mm extra travel down and about an extra 90 travel up aswell off memory.
BD
ps. Carrols springs do good work and will make your leafs for ya...

[tunaticer]

For every change you make to your suspension there will be a positive AND a negative. Higher clearance spring sets do raise your centre of gravity and affects your perfomance in high angle terrain. Harder suspension will let you carry heavier loads but will give you a crap ride in the empty state.
Softer suspension will be left wanting with a load.

Airbag suspension with a moderate lift kit and a comfortable spring ride selection will give you a good compromise. Airbags are awesome if the weight changes or if you tow something with some ball weight. You can level your vehicle up and counter that load with only a few psi difference and these days they are nearly completely bulletproof.

If you go to extremes in anything to do with your suspension you will have some serious things to find a counter for and usually that counter action will be your driving and you will put up with the bumps or the roll or the topheavyness or tyre wear etc there are lots of variables.

Toyota, Holden, Ford and almost every other manufacturer on the floor has put in a huge amount of trial and error and have come up with something that will suit the majority of ppl who buy them. If you are comfortable with your vehicle then making a big change to it might not give you a result you wished for.

Jack.

[bungie]

Reason for the change is I am bottoming out on the stoppers, very hard over anything that drops off sharp, like a carpark speed bump.

[finding_time]

Bungie

send GBC a pm as he's put polyair's on his 2004 hilux, he also has a 2' lift as well i think.

ian

[BenDover]

Nope dont agree at all tunaticer. There was no extra body roll in the rear of mine at all and winding up your torsion bars actually makes it more stable into turns, and a much better ride on the highway aswell. My hilux used to ride like a dream and i have had a full tone on it a few times (no problems at all apart from very light steering). Its the greasable shackles that make for a smooth everyday ride when empty. And its your 1st and second leaf (smallest and thickest ones) that govern how much you can carry. Places like carrols springs give you options on what you want. But in the bush leaf spring are actually way more stable than coils springs. (not as much travel) but more stable. Also a 2" body lift doesnt make for more body roll either as its only the cab thats raised and the engine and centre of gravity stay the same.

[BenDover]

This is my old hilux. 2" suspension lift. 2" bodylift. And 33's and i tinkered a bit with my torsion bar front end. It was a very very good set up and package... End result was much better performance allround, smoother than standard, WAY better offroad and could carry the weight i needed for work much more comfortably/stable on the tray.
I took it as far as i could go in the end with out running climax shackle and ripping out the front ifs and replacing it with a bundera front end. So im talking from experience.
BD

[GBC]

Bungie - is it topping out or bottoming out?

When dropping off a gutter and feeling a knock, that's topping out - get your ride height checked against original specs - lots of alignment joints just realign at the height the vehicle was driven in at and dont adjust the t-bars.
They are a spring like any other and sag.
The other reason could be that they've been wound back up too many times and you need a new set. - about $500 plus fitting - front end done.

I've tried a couple of different rear setups on mine. As Ben says greasable shackles are a must and make a difference to ride quality.

I had an aftermarket 2" setup, but got rid of it and went back to the oem springs and airbags - will probably block the springs or extend the shackles as I am relying on the bags for the lift and I have longer shocks installed so if the bags go flat the shocks are stuffed.

My problem was that I drove aroung empty most of the time, then loaded (overloaded) and towed big things, so I wanted the best of both worlds.

If the same running attitude is not maintained at all times the front end camber goes out and you scrub the front tyres out when loaded. I stuffed a brand new set of bfgs going to Grafton and back towing a camper.>:(

The bags are not the best for hard core off road stuff because up-travel is prevented while they are inflated. The upside is that rear body roll is eliminated so steering is much better on road.

However for carrying load over corrugations up the cape there's nothing better - mine's been there and other places because that is what I set it up to do.

It all comes down to personal preference.

Personally I'd body lift the cab and run 33's up the cape so you can let them down and not stuff the rims - much better for long distance ruff stuff in a ute.

I run around 28 lbs (285/75 16 10 ply's) in the dirt fully loaded and towing - makes a huge difference over the corrugations.

Hope this helps.

[GBC]

p.s. get your suspension mob to drill and tap your idler for a grease nipple. Makes the idler bearing servicable and they last heaps longer. That goes for mitsu drivers as well.
City Suspension at Springwood do all my stuff. they are honest and not tied to any particular brand.

[BenDover]

Ohh, i thought he was talking about the rear sagging gbc... Because even new hilux's these days have almost straight leaf's. If its the front id say he's hitting his bump stops forsure. Most likely the top one. Try winding them up before you go to the lenghts of replacing them... As the factory ones i found wherent too bad. Apart from when i jumped it and broke the welded nut the torsion bar bolt screws too :). Maybe they have set them up to only just enough clearance from new.
Ohhh, wait... Is your hilux coil spring or torsion bar front?? :-/

[GBC]

I think we're on torsion bar front ends? I am

[Brett1907]

What has been said pretty much sums it up. Get 2 in lift rear springs matched to suitable shocks and try winding up the front torsion bars. If you are still having problems with the front then get them checked out thoroughly.

As for air bags, Poly Airs are brilliant!! I let them down for everyday driving, but pump them up when I am carrying a load. Have had up to about 800 - 900kg of dirt in the back of the 'lux and the handling was perfect. A client of mine has them in his cruiser ute, and he can carry a bucket from a 20t excavator int he tray with no sag if the Poly Airs are pumped up.
They do limit the up travel of the rear end a bit, but when fully loaded the compromise is worth it. They have a very small volume so if you get to the camp site, unload and want to go play it only takes a couple of seconds to let them down. Then same when pumping up again, they fill so quickly you have to be carefull not to over inflate them.

I would go the Poly Air over the airbagman. The poly airs are only attached to the spring, not the chassis. They sit in a coil spring to keep them centred which will stretch as far as your leaf will drop, probably further.

Brett

[davez104]

Tunaticer is pretty much spot on with what he has said, all mods are a compromise, the higher you go the more unstable the car will be, and yes that includes body lifts as well. Would also like to know what basis you have for stating that leaves are more stable than coils? Sounds like BS to me, I think you are confusing stiffness with stability. Too soft can be unstable, but too stiff can be damn dangerous as well. The suspension is mounted to the chassis, not the cab for a reason, it aint all for your ride comfort.

Dave.

[BenDover]

Well Dave, when i used to 4x4 and compete in my truck and have been 4x4ing (hardcore) for 8 years.. When 4x4ing, coil spring trucks are way bouncy and used to (on an articulation) almost bounce right over on their sides. Where leaf springs used to not have asmuch travel but where much soggyer and felt way more safe on some runs... Ive done every hill in cruiser park unaided but they have alot more new stuff since then... As for the body lift. Its all in your mind mate. A 2" body on a ifs hilux when (done correctly) adds absolute zip to the body roll. Unless youve done it.. Dont bother talking about it.. If you look up, my hilux has a body lift and suspension and 33's.. So yeah im speaking from experience, how about yourself?
BD
Weekend 4x4's, and people who read 4x4 magazines but have never done sqaut and think they know everything... ::)
I know that technically when you go higher it is more unstable... Thats logic, but after i did it and also did 3 of my mates hilux's with a body aswell... You could not tell the difference what so ever.....

[davez104]

Thats right, you may not be able to notice it, but if you raise the centre of gravity and don't widen the support base, ie track, then it will be less stable, maybe not in day to day use, but at the extremes it will be, you can't escape that.

Thanks for qualifying your statement about the stability differences between coils and leaves. The coils probably bounce more because of the increased travel available, maybe softer springs and/or more heavy duty shocks to counter the rebound might help a bit. Sway bars should also help take a bit of the bounce out on articulation, albeit at the expense of some articulation, but a lot of people just throw thier swaybars away.

No, I'm not into the hardcore side of 4x4, have not had anything to do with comp trucks or the like, so maybe I don't know shit.

Dave.

[BenDover]

Its all good mate. Just didnt like the BS statement.. :)
BD

[bastard]

On my hilux ive moved the front diff forward 35mm so i can run 35 inch tyres without fowling up,i also have a 2 inch body lift and a 2inch suspension lift and extendend shackels,i started to notice a stability difference so i widened the track 100mm.I reckon i can ditch the body lift and still have tyre clearence,i know stability because it had to sleeps on its side last year and one this year all curtisy of ormeau.:D

[MY-TopEnder]

On my hilux ive moved the front diff forward 35mm so i can run 35 inch tyres without fowling up,i also have a 2 inch body lift and a 2inch suspension lift and extendend shackels,i started to notice a stability difference so i widened the track 100mm.I reckon i can ditch the body lift and still have tyre clearence,i know stability because it had to sleeps on its side last year and one this year all curtisy of ormeau.:D

It doesn't look like its layed on its side... still looks pretty tidy :P

I ran into a mate of yours actually... was at WOW Sight & Sound looking at GPS's and so was he... he asked the sales guy about bush tracks, and i piped up from the background that you'd need a different GPS, anyway we got talkin bout ormeau and thats when he dropped that he worked with ya. Tall guy... has a patrol.

[BenDover]

Bastard, I think everyone is talking about the new hilux's mate.. IFS fronts torsion/coils. If youve found a way to move them forward youd be a millionaire and everyone would be doing it to fit bigger tires. Leafs are easy to do. Look at the difference on my cruiser after i did a shackle reversal on it.... Moved it forward about 150mm. Greatly improved my approach angles, made it a much much smoother ride even when in the bush and gave me much better wheel travel aswell. In a more natural way, instead of fighting gravity and the forces. (for those who are interested)

[bastard]

It doesn't look like its layed on its side... still looks pretty tidy :P

I ran into a mate of yours actually... was at WOW Sight & Sound looking at GPS's and so was he... he asked the sales guy about bush tracks, and i piped up from the background that you'd need a different GPS, anyway we got talkin bout ormeau and thats when he dropped that he worked with ya. Tall guy... has a patrol.I dont know who it is but he must be lucky if he works with me.