Engine choices?

[Poodroo]

G'day all, something that has been on my mind a lot of late is the fact I will inevitably one day be faced with a decision on what I am going to do with the engine in the Pajero. It has now got 360,000 original klms on the clock and still showing no signs of blowing smoke of giving up anytime soon but that day will come I am sure. I have decided that it is still cheaper to keep the old car on the road seeing as I own it and I don't particularly want to upgrade and get into the debt cycle once again. So my question is when that day arrives where I have to take the car off the road to do something to the engine what are my choices? Ultimately I want a bit more performance out of the 3 litre so do I recondition the original donk and put a larger cam in it and do the motor up for more performance or do I look at the possibility of putting a small V8 engine in it? Is it possible to slip the bigger 3.5 litre Mitsubishi engine in it and couple it up to the same gearbox and drive system or do something unique and do up the old 3.0 litre engine and turbocharge or supercharge it? Which out of all these options would be most viable and least expensive? Interested in everyones' thoughts. The main aim is to get a few (or a lot) more torque for 4wd'ing applications like loose sand work on Fraser and for towing also.

Regards,

Poodroo

[Black_Rat]

Swap for a diesel Nissan is a good start :P;D

Alternatley you might be able to get a Reco Jap motor with more grunt and just slip it in.

[Poodroo]

Good suggestion there Damo. Do you know someone who is willing to swap a '93 Pajero for a newer diesel Nissan or were you going to swap yours for mine? Lol
Nah I will stick to the Pajero regardless. The faithful old girl still got me up "THE HILL" at Mt.Mee even with the trailing arm bushes all flogged out and non-existent. :P I am thinking that the engine will probably remain original and I will just recondition it and put a performance cam in it and maybe bore it out a little. Should go okay and not kill the economy too much hopefully.

Poodroo

[Black_Rat]

It's only the spare Pajero ::) you could afford to reco your original motor if downtime wasn't an issue. Options would be a plenty, i'd imagine keeping it simple would be the way to go cost wise. I'd imagine it would have lost a bit of grunt over the years so any reco motor would feel like a V8 ;D

[RCG008]

Dont think boring out is an option with that motor. I have been wrong before.

Cant see why a 3.5 litre paj motor wouldnt slip in. Its all the same back then. I think if your flywheel and bell housing match up it shouldnt be a drama. And i think they will.

Option 3. I know you can supercharge that motor. Cost a bit more than doing a v6 commodore but its do-able. You would have to re-build the motor to suit the application if you want another 350000 out of it though.

Your Mits dealer shoould be able to help with matching donks.... if not a forum. My old man has found quite a bit he can do to his 3.5l magna on forums. And to my knowledge these donks are similar.

See what happens?

[Kleyny]

I'd be looking at cam and getting the head flowed a little.
IMO as an old sprint car mechanic/crew member, good cam and good flowing heads can give you anything from bottom end toque too high revs horse power.
these days cams can be ground to make low down torque and good horse power.
should be allot cheaper than buying a 3.5lt as you need computers and to rewire the hole shabang.
IMO if you modify things to much you are compromising reliability.
as someone else said basically what ever you do with 350k on it you will feel the difference.

just my thoughts

neil

[Poodroo]

I'd be looking at cam and getting the head flowed a little.
IMO as an old sprint car mechanic/crew member, good cam and good flowing heads can give you anything from bottom end toque too high revs horse power.
these days cams can be ground to make low down torque and good horse power.
should be allot cheaper than buying a 3.5lt as you need computers and to rewire the hole shabang.
IMO if you modify things to much you are compromising reliability.
as someone else said basically what ever you do with 350k on it you will feel the difference.

just my thoughts

neil

Thanks for the info Neil. I am open to guidance from people in the know. It does make sense to keep the original motor in it and just recondition it and perhaps put a performance cam in it for extra torque and rev range. Would a turbo be overkill on the 3.0 litre V6? If I were to put a turbo in it could I get away with the same fuel management system? Just curious!

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

Turbos are a great thing on the correct motor.
But i doubt the 3lt mitsu engine is one of these.
Turbo motors have things that normal engines don't. eg tougher bottom ends, lower compression ratios, some even have oil squirter's onto the underneath of the pistons.
IMO turbos make petrol 4X4 some what a hand full when in tricky situations for the average Joe blog ( climbing a hill need a bit more GGs put your foot down just a little turbo cuts in and all hell brakes loose):o ;D
IMO turbos have their applications in say diesels they are a lazy engine and need a boost to make them perform. And i forgot racers:-X :-X

If you wanted to put a turbo or supercharger on you would at least have to get your computer chipped to hold the injectors open longer or larger injectors to keep the air fuel ratio at the optimum. ( not that dear i wouldn't think, then again I've been known to be wrong "so my wife tells me";D ;D )
if i was dead set on giving the engine a helping hand I'd personally go supercharger. Why SCs are instant horsepower (no turbo lag therefore no surprises on that killer hill)

Find someone who can grind you a cam to what you want maybe even get your heads looked at (for flow, and larger valves) HP and torque is all about ease of entrance of the clean cool air fuel mixture and an ease of exit of the left over gases. See if you can get your computer chipped/tuned to ensure the best possible performance.
Also while your at it spend a little extra on a good exhaust and a snorkel if not already fitted.

With a little patience, correct people doing the correct job, a little knowledge/ guidance, and of course the good old bucks you will get great results, eg old 1100 motor cycle engine with roughly 100hp stock, to pumping out over 220 at the wheels. just with head work, the right cam for the application and a splash of methanol.;D

the last time i typed this much was doing a paper at tafe

hope this helps and i didn't ramble to much.

neil

[finga]

I'll be worth to consider the extra insurance with motor mods. like turbo and superchargers and also rego costs with the V8.
My preferrance for either turbo or super would be go super. Instant power and reasonably easy to 'adjust' for the week-ends.
No matter which way you go I'd be doing my sums as any rebuild, mods or wha-ever cost lots of money if you can't do the work yourself and in the end may be better to upgrade. Especially if you use the Paj. for work and is tax deductable.

[blaze]

just rebuild it and keep it standard, bigger engines often dont do what people think, end up with the wrong bore and stroke for the drive train ratio. Increasing extra hp from exsisting engine only loads up the internals more than there designed load. Fit a free flow exhaust and leave the rest. You been happy enough with it for a lot of km's, just keep remembering service rendered.
cheers
blaze

[Poodroo]

Okay, sounds like I should put the thought of supercharging and turbocharging aside and just concentrate on the original motor. Glad I posted this topic because I can always get the right advice from you guys with exception to Damo who thinks a Nissan would be a cheap option. ::) Blaze thanks for the reality check. At worst I think I will recondition the original donk and modify the cam for a bit more torque. Any work on it will make it perform better than the 360,000 klm engine does now as people have already stated. Thanks again for all the advice guys.

Poodroo

[gone_fishing]

to spend the money on turbos and super chargers your better off putting the money to a upgrade 4x4:)
but as wish to keep it talk to some off the engine performance mobs they could knock up a hp increasse motor ready to go or supply the parts if you do it yourself
on another note mitsu's are quite grunty as is but get thirsty
depending on cercumstances $$$$ that would be my first option
or get a rebiuld and get the computer chiped probably the cheapest option
:)
gone fishing

[RCG008]

So you have gone off forced induction. Not a bad move.

But just remember anything you do to that motor.... eg , grinding cams and doing heads. Will require re-mapping of the ECU. I forgot to mention before when you do these things that it is almost a must in all situations to touch up the ECU.

The only reason I mentioned the 3.5l donk is that it was a factory option and I dare say a lot of stuff will match up. The 3.5 had a lot more torque than the 3litre hence the cubes. Plus I think a rebuild will cost a few dollars compared to sourcing a decent motor thats imported/ or low K's.

So many ups and downs to this question.

As I said before Supercharger is the obvious choice for this motor. But you seemed to have swayed from the adventure side. Probably best. I dont think a Mits super/c donk would get you another 350000ks.

[Brett1907]

I would say supercharge, but that can cause reliability questions and is expensive. You don't want to put a V8 in, you might find one cheap but even with kits available nothing ever fits properly and it can get VERY epensive to connect new computers and all that.

Either basic mods as Neil said, or what about what RGC008 said about the 3.5L being a factory otion. If this is the case it may be cheaper than head/cam mods. But no matter what you do, include a good exhaust (with hiflow cats) and snorkel (I want to put a second one on mine).

Or wait and upgrade to either the new Jeep Rubicon (factory diff locks & electonic disconnectable front sway bar) or the TRD supercharged hilux!!!

Brett

[Poodroo]

Sometimes I wish that technology in cars wasn't so advanced. In the old days of motoring you simply ripped out the engine and whacked almost anything in the car and with some fine tuning it went like stink. You used to be able to make an engine sound lumpy by putting in the biggest possible cam and modify the engine to the point of crazy and not have to worry about the fuel management computer. Well when the time comes I am sure I will cross that bridge when I come to it. Thanks everyone for the guidance.

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

what year pajy is this thing anyway??
Some EFI computers are simple.(just do the basics like tell the coils when to fire and when to open the injectors)
Others are not so simple ( tell the timing when to advance, even now when to advance the cam)

A simple cam (with larger lobes and maybe slightly more advanced to bring the torque in a little earlier) and good flowing heads (even just a larger exhaust valves) may not require the simple computer to be remapped or chipped)

An example of this is you have a VP-VR commodore and you put series 1 VN heads (they flow much better) on you get instant extra HP without touching the computer.

Just my thoughts

Neil

[Poodroo]

what year pajy is this thing anyway??
Some EFI computers are simple.(just do the basics like tell the coils when to fire and when to open the injectors)
Others are not so simple ( tell the timing when to advance, even now when to advance the cam)

A simple cam (with larger lobes and maybe slightly more advanced to bring the torque in a little earlier) and good flowing heads (even just a larger exhaust valves) may not require the simple computer to be remapped or chipped)

An example of this is you have a VP-VR commodore and you put series 1 VN heads (they flow much better) on you get instant extra HP without touching the computer.

Just my thoughts

Neil

My Pajero is a 1993 model. Sounds like I will have to ask loads of questions to the future mechanic when that time comes. :-/

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

I'll do some asking myself if you like, a mate works at a mitsubishi dealership so he should know if you can do simple mods like cam and valves without touching the computer.

my guess is you should be able to get away without computer mods. But its only a guess at this stage.

[bastard]

Id just rebuild the standard engine and if youve increased tyre diameter maybe have a look at changing diff gears.:)

[Fat Chilli]

I say throw a 3.8 ltr V6 in it, I used to have one of the original 6 hilux's built by Toyota, Marks Adaptors and Holden, it came off the assembly line as a diesel chassis and no donk. They installed the 3.8 and ARB used it as a demo car. I bought it 88k km's later and it flew, great torque and good off road (for a hilux). Plus the 3.8's are easy to work on, cheap and readily available.

[BenDover]

Poodroo, is your engine petrol or deisel? thats in it now... (sorry im not up with mitsubishi) And you said your wanting it for towing and torque... If its deisel it makes a BIG difference to how easy it is to upgrade it. Personally if its deisel i would be supercharging it forsure as its not that hard!! If its petrol then maybe upgrade with a few mods. But do not change engines from original for any reasons. Work with what youve got.

I have a GU patrol and did an engine swap from my incredibly slow 4.2TD to a gen 3. And have had sooo many headaches its not funny with computers, map sensors. Computer programs, ignition moduals etc... Because noone in aus has done it before. Its finished now but has taken 5 months and cost $21k so believe me, dont do it hey!
for anyone who's interested my results are 269.3 BHP and 1350 NM of torque Aprox 370 kw at flywheel 4 gear dyno run. And lots of room for improvement as it is still new and tight and running standard airfilter system without a snorkle. and still running 4.1 highway gears

[Poodroo]

I'll do some asking myself if you like, a mate works at a mitsubishi dealership so he should know if you can do simple mods like cam and valves without touching the computer.

my guess is you should be able to get away without computer mods. But its only a guess at this stage.

Great stuff HONKY DORY. I will wait to see what he says.

Regards,

Poodroo

[Poodroo]

Poodroo, is your engine petrol or deisel? thats in it now... (sorry im not up with mitsubishi) And you said your wanting it for towing and torque... If its deisel it makes a BIG difference to how easy it is to upgrade it. Personally if its deisel i would be supercharging it forsure as its not that hard!! If its petrol then maybe upgrade with a few mods. But do not change engines from original for any reasons. Work with what youve got.

I have a GU patrol and did an engine swap from my incredibly slow 4.2TD to a gen 3. And have had sooo many headaches its not funny with computers, map sensors. Computer programs, ignition moduals etc... Because noone in aus has done it before. Its finished now but has taken 5 months and cost $21k so believe me, dont do it hey!
for anyone who's interested my results are 269.3 BHP and 1350 NM of torque Aprox 370 kw at flywheel 4 gear dyno run. And lots of room for improvement as it is still new and tight and running standard airfilter system without a snorkle. and still running 4.1 highway gears

BenDover mine is the 3.0 litre V6 petrol. Just to update you on the available Mitsubishi engines that were made for my model they made the 3.0 litre V6, the 3.5 litre V6 petrol, and the 2.8 litre turbo Diesel. I'd love to have that extra torque because of past experiences. I normaly do a trip to Fraser Island every year and even though the Pajero gets through everything with relative ease there are times when in convoy with others who have later more powerful vehicles they start pulling away from me when I hit the real loose sand and I am flat to the board. I just feel that I have to push the engine too hard at times in those situations so I was thinking that when I need to do the motor up then possibly that is the time to do some modifications to get that extra torque. So far it seems my best option is to keep the original motor but put a better suited cam in it and possibly do the heads up and try for a better flow rate. Will certainly ask the pros when that time comes. Because the engine has now covered 362,000klms I don't think that time will be too far away.

Poodroo

[BenDover]

Yeah get a cam with a longer duration. and exhaut it. But the best for sand is get some fats. Like 12.5s and let them down to 7psi. that what i used to do on fraser. And then glid over the sand.

[Tangles]

Poodroo,

you know you need a V8 diesel to keep up with those Nissans ;D

mike

[Poodroo]

Poodroo,

you know you need a V8 diesel to keep up with those Nissans ;D

mike

Lol Mike. You know it wasn't the Nissans that were leaving me in the loose sand, it was the newer Pajero's, and a new Prado all with bigger engines. Nah I will do the old donk up and see what magic horsepower it ends up with once it is done. Should be very interesting.

Poodroo

[Tangles]

;D gotta admit on the highway uphill those petrols where leaving the ol diesel for dead, maybe i need the V8 ;D

mike

[FNQCairns]

Gee if your flat to the board keeping up with those fella's you should get some new friends with diesel NA 4.2 patrols you will run rings around them, they are so doughy in the sand even the 2.8 petrol MQ's out perform them. Would be cheaper anyway.

cheers fnq

[Tangles]

i hear you FNQ...;D dirt, sand etc run rings around them,, but on a long uphill highway drag the ol deisel does it tough compared to a petrol ( anyway mine does) ... Deckies petrol flies uphill on the highway but with a corresponding dip in the ol petrol gauge ;D im still wondering if hes purchased that petrol station yet?

cheers
Mike

[Dicko]

The V6 from the dunny door is a fair choice, I put one in my dual cab Triton a couple of years ago. all is still going well. It worked out easier to use the auto from the dunny door as well rather than match the v6 to the existing 5 speed.

In the kit I got off V6 conversions it had a different output shaft to change in the auto & it mated up with the transfer case. The transfer case, tailshafts etc all remain in their original position.

I got a good deal on a rear end damaged complete donor car which made the excercise economical.

[blaze]

Hi Poodroo
How long since you have pump and injectors done, that would make a lot of difference if they are a little tired
cheers
blaze

[Poodroo]

Hi Poodroo
How long since you have pump and injectors done, that would make a lot of difference if they are a little tired
cheers
blaze

G'day Blaze. I actually spent a fair bit of money only a few months ago replacing the cam belt, water pump, A/c idle motor, clutch and pressure plate, and had the injectors done while they were at it. Radiator had a total clean out and recondition also.

Regards,

Poodroo

[Reel Hard]

I would save your dollars, drive it till it dies and go and get something newer and better.

[Kleyny]

Ok i spoke to my mate at Mitsu today.
He said there is no requirement to touch your computer to do engine mods like cam and heads. (as i suspected)
He also reinforced what myself and others have said about good exhaust and snorkel. (make the engine breath)
He gave over this example: breath with your mouth open then try and breath through a straw.;)


G'day Blaze. I actually spent a fair bit of money only a few months ago replacing the cam belt, water pump, A/c idle motor, clutch and pressure plate, and had the injectors done while they were at it. Radiator had a total clean out and recondition also.

Saying this just doing your original engine is saving you even more money. if you where to put a different motor in it you would lose all that money already spent.

neil

[Poodroo]

I would save your dollars, drive it till it dies and go and get something newer and better.

Nice thought but missing the point. I did say I no longer wanted to get into the debt cycle with cars and mentioned that it is cheaper to maintain the current vehicle and keep it on the road and besides, Mitsubishi's never die. :-X :P

Thanks for asking your friend on my behalf HONKY DORY. I am relieved that I don't have to consider doing anything to the computer by doing some engine mods. Will be kind of exciting to see the end result after doing the mods to it.

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

Now to think of what cam to get;D ;D
the choices will boggle.
heres just a few. Larger lobes (make the valves more open), change the duration of the valves (stay open longer), make the valves open earlier.

I've got a few other questions.. When does the torque range start now??
How much are you looking at spending on the rebuild???


In my BAJA i got it to come in 500rmp earlier and it feels like a whole new car.
The only problem now is i use more fuel.:'(
Just because i give it more curry;D ;D

Seriously i did notice it uses less fuel (normal driving). It makes sense really i don't need as much foot to make it go.

[Poodroo]

Now to think of what cam to get;D ;D
the choices will boggle.
heres just a few. Larger lobes (make the valves more open), change the duration of the valves (stay open longer), make the valves open earlier.

I've got a few other questions.. When does the torque range start now??
How much are you looking at spending on the rebuild???


In my BAJA i got it to come in 500rmp earlier and it feels like a whole new car.
The only problem now is i use more fuel.:'(
Just because i give it more curry;D ;D

Seriously i did notice it uses less fuel (normal driving). It makes sense really i don't need as much foot to make it go.

G'day again HONKY DORY. I was thinking that 7k would probably cover the rebuid hopefully. If I could get more low down torque to come in 500 rpm earlier I'd be totally wrapped in that result. Starting this thread has given me more insight into it and I will at least be better prepared for it when the time comes. Thanks again for the advice.

Poodroo

[BenDover]

The longer duration lobes that hold the exhaust open longer is what gives you more torque.

[Mtx]

I was faced with a similar decision.. Had a 2.4ltr turbo diesel Hilux Surf and the engine was on its way out. Drove to Tassie and did some touring etc and 12 litres of oil in 7000ks made my decision easy.

So when I got back, out came the donk and manual gearbox and in went a 3.8ltr fully reco commodore engine and commodore automatic gearbox behind it (turbo 700 gearbox matched to a VR series 2 engine). Marks adapters in Vic made the job easy.

After the heart transplant, was able to go around black duck and the park down at tenterfield (cant remember the name) easily and a lot of the time in 2wd.

I also changed the transfer case to cope with the added power.

was fantastic but at 20l per 100ks started to hit me at the wallet.
Could change diff ratios etc to fix that but was absolutely fantastic off road.

Total cost including buying absolutely everything custom exhaust, Full recondition of motor and gearbox and paying someone to do the transplant about $8k

if you want more info on what can be done to a paj. go to www.outerlimits4x4.com (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com) and they have a mitsubishi section.

[Kleyny]

G'day again HONKY DORY. I was thinking that 7k would probably cover the rebuid hopefully. If I could get more low down torque to come in 500 rpm earlier I'd be totally wrapped in that result. Starting this thread has given me more insight into it and I will at least be better prepared for it when the time comes. Thanks again for the advice.

Poodroo

Mate I'd be surprised if you spend half that. But then again if thats drive in drive out??

My guestimates would be $2000 on parts and $1500 labour. But I have been out of the mechanics for a few years now.

neil

[Poodroo]

Mate I'd be surprised if you spend half that. But then again if thats drive in drive out??

My guestimates would be $2000 on parts and $1500 labour. But I have been out of the mechanics for a few years now.

neil

Wow really? I was thinking it would cost heaps more than that. I should look you up when the time comes so you can help me not get ripped off. Lol

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

When you get closer give me a PM
I'll try and help with parts and even a engine rebuilder.

[Poodroo]

When you get closer give me a PM
I'll try and help with parts and even a engine rebuilder.


Thanks HONKY DORY. I will probably hold you to that when the time comes. ;)
Thanks again for the info and help.

Regards,

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

Poodroo,
I just got a quote for a mate who has a V6 Pajero.
His motor is a 6G72 with the symptoms of lack of power towing and blowing blue smoke on start up.
The quote i got was for a full rebuild including things like heads shaved, inlet valves reground and reseated, exhaust valve replaced, re boring/rehoneing of barrels, replacement of things like pistons, rings, bearings, plus remove and replace motor.

The whole quote come to 3000 to 3500.
Which from memory was around what i thought it would be.;)
The only thing that this quote does not cover is if the crank or cam needs attention such as regrind or replacement.

I hope this helps in your budgeting for when yours comes closer.

neil

[Poodroo]

Poodroo,
I just got a quote for a mate who has a V6 Pajero.
His motor is a 6G72 with the symptoms of lack of power towing and blowing blue smoke on start up.
The quote i got was for a full rebuild including things like heads shaved, inlet valves reground and reseated, exhaust valve replaced, re boring/rehoneing of barrels, replacement of things like pistons, rings, bearings, plus remove and replace motor.

The whole quote come to 3000 to 3500.
Which from memory was around what i thought it would be.;)
The only thing that this quote does not cover is if the crank or cam needs attention such as regrind or replacement.

I hope this helps in your budgeting for when yours comes closer.

neil

Thanks heaps Neil. That is way better than I originally thought. My poor old Pajero has now crossed the 370,000 klms mark and still not showing signs of blowing smoke or loss of power. Just how many more k's it is going to give me is anyone's guess but I am sure that I will just end up rebuilding it when the time comes. Thanks again for the info.

Regards,

Poodroo

[Kleyny]

Thanks heaps Neil. That is way better than I originally thought. My poor old Pajero has now crossed the 370,000 klms mark and still not showing signs of blowing smoke or loss of power. Just how many more k's it is going to give me is anyone's guess but I am sure that I will just end up rebuilding it when the time comes. Thanks again for the info.

Regards,

Poodroo
His has only done 250k. But i think the oil hasn't been getting changed on a regular basis. And of course this shortens the life of the motor greatly.

I'm still amazed that yours is still going strong at 370k. I used to work on these old girls and that sort of ks with little to no smoke or power lossis very few and far between.

neil

[BenDover]

Absolutely... Dont put a V8 in it especially an injected V8. Way too much time and effort. You can possibly cam it and get a cam with a longer exhaust lobe/duration which will give you a bit more torque. But the beez Knees is having a car that is fast/reliable and still very comfortable and smooth to drive. Im so over camed engines and things like that. The best thing you can do is supercharge it. And by no means go for full power like everybody else does. Superchargers run way cooler than turbo's. Instant horse power and torque with No lag. Perfect for 4x4's and towing. And just boost it to what ever your injectors can handle comfortably. And if your still not happy, change your injectors and adjust the boost (its that easy). You will be surprised how much difference and alive your engine can be (even a slug of an engine can breathe fire). I messed up a bit with my 4.5 cruiser engine the first time. And ended up running 2 psi (wrong pulley size) and everybody said there is noway 2 psi can make a difference and you want even feel it (bullsh*t 2 psi vs atmosfearic pressure) it made about 15 - 20 % difference. It just felt much faster and sounded a hell of alot tougher aswell. And if you just drive it normally you will get better fuel economy. Seriously.
Wish i could say the same with my new V8. But what can i say, i just cant drive it normally yet. Its still new and i have to show these young punks who's boss. :) maybe in another few months.
BD