Sunken Yacht-Who's boat is this?

[Siminikish]

Was heading over to the Myora light yesterday for a fish when i saw the yacht 'Unique' grounded and half sunk on peel near the platypus wreck. Is it legal to loot a boat if its not completely sunk. Not that i did but i was curious as to the laws regarding this as i heard that any sunken boat is fair game.

[stark]

Don't confuse 'wreckers' & strippers' with salvage. Stripping is and has always been illegal. Salvage is a very complicated set of laws and is not used in cases like this.

Most likely the insurance company will contract a firm to refloat the vessel and tow back to a repair yard.

Sorry to sound pompous, there is no easy way to convey what can be done in cases as above. Just stay clear of the vessel as any action by someone other than the owner or the insurance company's representative can result in a messy legal problem.

Cheers
John

[Noelm]

oh yeah, never ever "loot" a sunken/aground boat in any way, because the insurance companies are just as bad as the taxman, they will chase you to the end of the earth for $10-00, better just stay away unless you are needed to assist in some way of course.

[Les]

omg i look outside yesterday and i seen this, i was going to cruise on over to see what was wrong but now i know.

[mickstar001]

Doesnt look to unique to me at all

Mickstar

[Tinn]

Looks like it might be a new reef

[SgBFish]

I suppose its as fair game a car broken down on the side of the road?
Or a house with an open door?
Its still someones property!!!!!!!!!

[Siminikish]

lol seargent big fish, the laws the law. once a vessel has sunk it is fair game. i personally took part in a rescue off scarborough in which a bay cruiser sunk and was looted later by Pro Dive. so if your boat is sinking and you see me putting the dive gear on don't get upset, im an aquapreneur.

[Noelm]

once a boat is sunk it is NOT fair game! you can dive all you like, but you cannot pillage stuff, just because it is sunk! the laws of salvage are very complicated and do not allow for people to steal stuff off a sunken boat, even if it is abandoned (as it would be of course) so be careful!

[snapperm8]

wait so half the people are saying it is legal and the other half illegal which one is it?



cheers dave

[Noelm]

do a search of the laws of salvage and you will find out who is correct, and just in case you doubt it, just try to get some "goodies" off that yacht in this post while the Police are about! enough said.

[trueblue]

People who "salvage" are entitled to a fee for performing the salvage. They must hand over the salvaged vessel to the insurer who will pay the salvager for recovering the vessel.

However, you must be contractually engaged as the salvage operator. Not just anyone can 'salvage' whatever they come accross in the water. What is being discussed here is open thievery.

If you find a car abandoned on the side of the road and get caught takeing the stereo, you will be charged with stealing. Same applies to a boat.

Common sense please.

Mick

[Kleyny]

lol seargent big fish, the laws the law. once a vessel has sunk it is fair game. i personally took part in a rescue off scarborough in which a bay cruiser sunk and was looted later by Pro Dive. so if your boat is sinking and you see me putting the dive gear on don't get upset, im an aquapreneur.

are you serious???:-X :-X :-X :o :o

[stark]

Look everyone-

Once and for all it is clearly illegal to loot a sunken boat. Even rendering assistance, for example a tow on the high seas allows the assister only compensation for fuel etc. unless salvage has been declared by the recovery vessel and the owners & insurers of the vessel to be recovered (may NOT necessarily be the Master of the vessel, but the financial owners.).

Salvage laws are far too complex to discuss in a forum. Any vessel sunk within the jurisdiction of, for example Queensland, falls first with the owner and insurance company and then if abandoned to the State.

Any idea of undeclared salvage is subject to some very precise laws. If you are not required for immediate assistance for an emergency - steer clear. Otherwise you may regret any actions deemed to imped the salvage or recovery of a vessel or transport as defined by maritime law.


Cheers
John

[Noelm]

right on, thats what I was saying, get all the dive gear you want and steal what you like, BUT you are breaking the law ,end of story!!

[Chaz]

lol seargent big fish, the laws the law. once a vessel has sunk it is fair game. i personally took part in a rescue off scarborough in which a bay cruiser sunk and was looted later by Pro Dive. so if your boat is sinking and you see me putting the dive gear on don't get upset, im an aquapreneur.

I take it you also think it would be OK to take the wallets from dead people in a car crash? If someone loses their boat, they don't need POS stealing from it.

Brenden

[FNQCairns]

But I understand if the vessel is abandoned or your rescue the occupants but the boat is in certain danger of grief you can take it under tow and have a legal claim to a certain amount of it's value.
I got this info from reading sea-dog style paparbacks so take it as you wish :).

cheers fnq

[Noelm]

OK, lets "put this to bed! I work at a University and we have a department that is part of the Faculty of law and it's name is Centre for Maritime Policy (which also includes Centre for Transnational Crime) these guys teach Uni students on these issues, so I guess they might just know their stuff! I have asked the marine lawyers on this and it IS stealing no ifs no buts, there are exceptional circumstances where some salvage is claimable if you save the vessel (but no part of the vessel or its contents) if the vessel has been made unseaworthy (sunk/adrift whatever) BUT unless it has been declared as "salvagable and abandoned" by the owners, insurers and the captain/skipper whoever was in charge, you do NOT remove anything off it no way no how (unless you can get away with it) as it is the same as just taking stuff off a broken down car on the side of the road, or in the extreme as mentioned, taking a dead persons wallet, it is a crime (and a very serious one at that) so be warned!! end of story.

[4x4frog]

In the end it's down to your own morals. If you are low enough to steel from someone's misfortune then you are a lowlife. I imagine that if any of the people pushing the issue were on the receiving end of this type of behavior we'd all know about it.

[Sandman]

So we now know its illegal to take from a sucken boat ... But whats the story with the boat does anyone know ?

[Noelm]

OH yeah, that sort of got lost didn't it??

[Mr__Bean]

That's why looters get shot at times!

- Darren

[trueblue]

But I understand if the vessel is abandoned or your rescue the occupants but the boat is in certain danger of grief you can take it under tow and have a legal claim to a certain amount of it's value.
I got this info from reading sea-dog style paparbacks so take it as you wish :).

cheers fnq

What you are referring to here is known as "Open form salvage", or Pure salvage.

The other type of salvage is "contract salvage".

Open form salvage is very complicated and the most well know open form salvage agreements are LLoyds Open Form and the US Open Form.

Regardless of the type of salvage, all cargo, personal effects, vessel fitments etc all remain the property of the owner. No salvage laws give right of ownership of any of this to the salvage operator.

The only rights under salvage are per the agreements. For contract salvage, a normal contract will provide a fixed fee such as a day rate for the salvage vessel, crane barges, etc, etc to conduct its operations, and perhaps a bonus if they do succeed. If they fail to succeed in the salvage attempt under contract salvage operations, they still get paid for their work. If they recover small portions of property, it remains the property of the owner.

Under Open Form Salvage there may, or may not be an actual agreement reached either in writing or verbally over the radio prior to the salvage beginning. The open form contition of salvage is accepted where the vessel is in peril of being lost (Vessel - not crew) and the master accepts a towage line or other physical assistance from the salvage operator. The salvage operator will then declare at the first convenience available to him, which Open form he is providing the assistance under.

A crew rescue does not come under salvage. Salvage refers to recovery of property.

All vessels at sea are required to provide rescue to persons in peril within their capabilities.

Under Open Form salvage, there is a specific clause that says "No Cure - No Pay". This means that the attempted salvage must be successful, and the salvage operator must present the salvaged vessel in some manner to the owner where by the owner recovers the "hull of the vessel". This is called "the Cure".

If the vessel was not at risk of being lost (permanently) at the time operations began, and the salvage operator did not subsequently present the vessel hull to the owner, the Open Form salvage did not take place and there is no payment of any sort to the salvage operator. Vessels aground will not normally come under an open form salvage because by this time the ships owners have been able to engage a contract salvage operator. A vessel aground also does not satisfy the requirement of the vessel to be in imminent danger of being lost - it isn't going anywhere.

Payment in respect of an open form salvage is calculated by percentage value of the hull only. Property / cargo do not usually enter into the equation. The "Open" form is just that, there are no rules set in stone to determine the cash settlement. The arbitrator takes into account the hull value, sometimes the cargo, and also the amount of risk, difficulty and expense endured by the salvage operator in performing the salvage. Part of the Open form agreement also says that both parties are bound by the first and only decision of the arbitrator.

Regarding property from the vessel: There are specific terms for this. "Jetsam" is property / cargo etc that was thrown into the sea by the crew of a stricken vessel in an attempt to keep it afloat. "Floatsam" is property / cargo that floated off the vessel while it was floundering. "Ligan" is property remaining on the vessel. These very clearly remain the property of the owner under all circumstances.

If a salvage operator uses the LLoyds Open Form agreement another catch clause is that all claims for settlement must be settled by mandatory third party arbitration (not in the courts) and this arbitration must take place in London, England.

Open form salvage is an incentive for a master to risk his vessel to save the property of another vessel and be adequately compensated on the basis that the entire stricken vessel would otherwise have been permanently lost.

Salvage of sunken vessels would normally come under contract salvage. Even a sunken vessel remains the property of the owner until officially abandoned by the owner to the state.

Regards

Mick

[stark]

Thanks Mick for the summary. Trust that once and for all covers the matter.

Cheers
John

[ssab1]

is that where i parked it

[GT_warrior]

It's a sad day when fellow boat owners want to capitalise on such miss fortune... :-(

Ever heard of Karma ?

Hi My name is Earl.........

[Poodroo]

I live by one rule and that is "If it doesn't belong to you then leave it alone!" Sunk, half sunk or otherwise it is still someone's boat. If someone stole my car and took it for a joyride and ran out of fuel and left it abandoned on the side of the road and by the time I found it it had been stripped bare by looters I'd be rather annoyed to say the least. It's my hard earned dollars that go into everything I own and I wish everyone out there would respect that.

Poodroo

[Tangles]

Cant understand how some guys would want to take advantage of others misfortune, my other rule leads on from Poodroos, put yourself in the other guys position, oh yeah as someone else said 'karma',, totally agree,
mike

[SEA HORSE]

Someone always has a camera

[smiley_doobinator]

Seriously people if you have even considered looting a boat that has struck trouble I don't think this is the forum for you try wannabepirates.com

[Navi]

the bad part about this is you may have been doing the right thing and putting it under tow to near by beach where you leave it, few days later you find out that some one else has stripped the boat of all the removeable stuff, can you still be held responsible???? or
you go to pump the water out to keep it a float all of a sudden thes gun shot's firing over your head as the owners sitting on the beach watching it sink.( some people do this so I'm told, never knew it had a crack in the hull )

cheers Chris....

[disorderly]

Navi,
I'd suggest the best course of action would be too ascertain if anybody was on board and in need of assistance.
If not ,why would you risk your own boat and crew to rescue a floundering vessel,where you would have no real claim for salvage rights anyway?

cheers Scott

[Navi]

I just thought you know if it was my boat and I was not around but some one could have done something before it went under, I would be grateful,

cheers Chris

[disorderly]

Fair enough Chris,

From the couple of scenario's you proposed,I,d certainly be wary of boarding or taking under tow someone else's vessel without permission.

cheers Scott

[DICER]

what if things fall off the boat, but were not floatsam or jetsam?

[Reel Nauti]

It sickens me to think that people will quibble over what they can and can't grab from someone elses misfortune. I thought most people on this site were above that. Why does it have to take legal interpretations?

Disappointed to the extreme

Dave

[Reel Nauti]

and to you Siminikish

I hope, for your sake, I never come across your divers flag next to a sticken vessel.

Dave

[Siminikish]

omg this is hilarious! an honest question turns into open warfare where dead people are getting their wallets stolen and people shot at. I think the majority of people here just can't help putting in their two bits even when it is of no help but to add fuel to the fire. get out there and do more fishing and leave the surfing to the beach if you can't be helpful. Hey thanks to those concerned for clearing up the legalities of the matter. oh yeah i did take something from the boat, photos.

always the smart@$$

[disorderly]

Was heading over to the Myora light yesterday for a fish when i saw the yacht 'Unique' grounded and half sunk on peel near the platypus wreck. Is it legal to loot a boat if its not completely sunk. Not that i did but i was curious as to the laws regarding this as i heard that any sunken boat is fair game.

When you ask a stupid question,expect a stupid answer.

[ozscott]

...how did it sink?

[disorderly]

...how did it sink?

It got full of waterhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/cry.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif