Spiral Guides- how do they work?

[cammac]

This subject has prob been covered b4 but im curious to know how they work?

Will the rod still cast well? can u use it on a rod with a strong backbone??

Cam

[Bearclaw]

Cam, there appears to be no lost casting distance if anything a slight gain. Rods have been built this way for over 100 years, lots have people have put there name to it eg. Roberts wrap etc. Actually GLoomis use to build all their casting rods like it at one stage ( i think it was the early eighties) , but changed back to the conventional way because sales dropped. Then there is the jokes you get, "hey mate you put your guides on the wrong way" etc.
"Backbone" that's like saying underwrap. Yes, perfect for a strong backbone or a weak one, but you must build the backbone/spline/spine in the opposite position eg. like a spin rod.
There is one rumour that goes around about spiral wraps, that is blanks self distruct due to the twisting motion, there is no proof to this and if you really look at how a spiral wrap guides the line from the top to the bottom of the blank this doesn't make sense. Anyhow watch a conventional rod under load and tell me that there is no twisting motion to the blank, the fishing line will twist the blank by applying force to the sides of the guiderings until the path of least resistance is found. Fuji don't recommend spiral wrapping, I understand the only reason is that when they design the guide frame they didn't add this to the equation. Some blank manufacturers don't recommend it either, why I don't know.

[Noelm]

they do work OK but I am yet to be convinced that they offer any great benefit other than some novelty value, I have built lots of them over they years and very rarely does a person get a second one after using them for a while, not knocking them but not any real big deal (I think)

[cammac]

Thanks Myles,

I still confused - what do they actually suppose to achieve over a conventional straight line of guides - wouldnt the line rub on the rod?

First time i saw this set up was on a rod of Bushies on TV!

Cam

[Bearclaw]

Cam,
Look at a conventional rod under a heavy load, usually the tip 3rd of the blank the guides are being pulled to the side twisting the blank, whether you build on the backbone or not the line will seek the path of least resistance. Higher the guide there is more leverage to drag the blank to one side.
There are a few ways to do it, some involve several transition guides eg. Stripper 000 degrees, 1st trans. 060 degrees, 2nd 120 degrees and then 180 degrees. (Roberts wrap). Others use less guides in the transition and the latest method is the bumper style which involes you setting you rod up conventionally, then twisting all but the stripper 180 degrees. Between the stripper and the first guide you use the smallest guide available that suits and place that as a bumper guide where the line touches the blank, this prevents the line from rubbing against the blank.

[Noelm]

the result looked for is less guides which equals better action?? (questionable) less guides equals less friction (possibly) and with the guides "under" the blank less chance of the blank twisting as mentioned above in post by bearclaw, but as I stated I have built quite a few over the years, and MOST people do not get a second one, lots just get one because they saw on a TV/DVD whatever and they MUST be good because some "guru" had one!

[Trader1]

Since we live on the Southern Hemisphere should we spiral the guides clockwise or anti clockwise? The rods I have seen in the Northern hemisphere seem to be set anti clockwise.

[cammac]

Hmmmmm A very conceptual concept i reckon !! does the line avoid touching the rod? cant see how it would cast as well as conventional setup! Oh well Im sure it has its loyal following among the minority - its all good! thanks for the replies guys

Cam

[Hardb8]

Cool thread...I'm learning again,
I was looking at building a light Bass rod with this style of guide configuration.I thought the advantages were less guides,This would allow the blank to show more of it's true action.And with less guides there is obviously less weight.

I've noticed that on some spiral wraps that the stripper is actually at 0 degrees,And some it starts at about 20-30.I was looking at starting the transition of the line earlier at around the 20-30 mark to get the line under earlier,And maybe save an extra guide hangin of the side,Or perhaps an earlier start would take an unneeded guide out altogether.But with this offset start I was worried about line bunching to one side of the spool during retrieve.

Bearclaw and Noelm,
Do you guys know if line bunching is a problem with either a 20 degree stripper placement?Or even a 0 degree for that matter?

I have never built or even used a spiral wrap.And I would like to ask you guys this :- If you were to build yourselves your own personal rod.Would you use a spiral,Or a conventional placement of the guides?And why?

From what I read you pair have forgotten more than I will ever know,And you two have alot of experience in the game.Your answers will heavily influence my guide configuration.

If I do spiral my guides thay will go anticlockwise to add as a counter weight of the heavier crankin side of my righthanded reel.Perfection as attained in small increments.LOL.

[Bearclaw]

Hardb8,
The rule is to slightly offset it a few degrees to the opposite way the spiral is going.

Cam, the line doesn't touch the blank.

Spiral wraps might be a minority here but elsewhere in the world it is becoming the norm.

[DR]

here is a bit of reading for you..
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=acid+wrap+roberts+wrap+spiral+wrap&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Bearclaw]

Hardb8,

Sorry couldn't answer your questions last time had to go back to work.
The amount of offset is varies due to the size spool, knowing your gear most of it is narrow spool so it is now limited to the size stripper you use. Anything smaller than a 12 condsideration would be needed to prevent building up of line on one side of the spool.

I don't use them myself, but have built a few. Personally I find no difference to the casting distance or accuracy. I have one on the drawing board, but have to wait till a broken hand heals.

The norm the spiral goes to the opposite side to the handle, as when you place the rod down it is usually handle down. There is no rule here.

If doing one I would recomend doing the simple spiral (bumper) it has the nicest feel to the rod as the line is not directed around the blank rather than being directed from the stripper through the bumper guide to the first guide located under the blank.

As Dave (DR) said, just do a search there is plenty of info out there.

[Willo]

One point which hasent been raised about spiral wraps yet, is there stabilty under load, and theres no reel wobble.They give a overhead rod the same stabilty as a spin out fit. Which is a great asset for me , as I fish solo and it give me a free hand to gaff fish and control boat.With conventional overhead is wanting to spin around in ya hand all the time .Ive been using spiral wraps for 4 or 5 years now and theres no way I would go back to a conventional Overhead
Just my 10cents worth :)
Willo

[cammac]

Hmmm interesting !
Ill load up a couple of my overheads and take my hands off and check out the twisting - honestly havent noticed any really - maybe i havnt caught a big enough fish yet haha!
Would the twisting be less on a Game rod with roller guides where the line settles in the centre of the roller?

[Noelm]

I would NOT build myself one again, tried one about 10 years ago, had some novelty value, and the first guide seems to be best a "tad" offset, and the spool width comes into play with placement now too, as well as level wind as it places a bit more strain on the level wind mechanism because it pulls a bit off to the side, but how much is really unknown (might have to do a home test maybe)

[ldnicolai1@comcast.n]

Actually GLoomis use to build all their casting rods like it at one stage ( i think it was the early eighties) , but changed back to the conventional way because sales dropped.
I wish I had read this yesterday. I spent an hour or two with Gary Loomis (GLoomis) last night and would have loved to have discussed it with him. I live a few miles south of Woodland Washington, USA where both Gloomis and Lamiglas are located.

I have been building Seeker and Calstar spiral wrapped rods for several years now. The advantage of the spiral wrap is two fold. First, it makes the rod stable in the hand by eliminating torque on the blank. Second, it allows you to fight a heavy fish without a fighting belt because you can use a Fuji mushroom buttcap instead of a gimbal.

For demonstration purposes, here is my friend and former football pro Chuck fighting a Pargo with a Seeker 870 and an Avet JX out of Quepos, Costa Rica las month. Look at how quickly this rod breaks over:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/IMG_0583.jpg
Put the wood to him, Chuck...
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/CostaRica12.jpg
How close together would the guides have to be to keep the line from touching the blank if this rod were wrapped conventionally. Wanna see the fish?
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/CostaRica13.jpg
Pretty nice Pargo.

Anyway, there is more to this twisted stick stuff than novelty. People that I have built them for have nearly always come back for more.

Nice site. Here is one more pic to go. Me with a big halibut on my boat out of Newport Oregon, USA. The rod is a Seeker 670 and the reel is an Avet EX04/2 (the dog is my late lab, Lord Nicolai).
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/Seeker670-1.jpg

[Bearclaw]

Lord Nic,
I stand corrected if this is not true about Gloomis and spiral wrapping, but I was given this information when asking a question some time ago on a well known US rodbuilding forum a what appeared to be a factory rolled spiral wrapped rod I was shown at a tackle shop several years ago.

[ldnicolai1@comcast.n]

It may be true that Loomis' were all spiral at one time but I doubt it. I have a couple of LCI rods from before Gary started GLoomis and neither is spiral wrapped. (LCI = Loomis Composite Inc) I didn't say that to embarrass you if it was not true, I just wish I had talked to him about spiral wrapped rods. Oh well, I will see him again shortly. We are organizing local sport fishermen to get gillnets out of the Columbia River and he is heading up the effort.

I think the reason that they have not caught on with the average Joe Fisherman is that spiral wrapping favors one-piece rods and the majority of salmon/steelhead rods up here are two piece. It is a natural for one-piece salty rods like Seeker/Sabre/Calstar.

Lord Nic was my labrador retriever. I'm just Steve.

[Owen]

Lord Nic was my labrador retriever. I'm just Steve.

Well at least we sorted out who was boss ;)

[4x4frog]

Spiral wraps are an intersting concept. There was a a rod building article about one in a recent issue of a fishing mag' in the last couple of months.
I'd like to build one in the near future as I am looking for a rod for my little Iron IR3 reel. I like the idea that it follows the natural twist of the rod under load.
Do you still use a trigger grip mount for the smaller reels?

[Bearclaw]

Hey Steve I have a mate Ken Preston over there, who has a lab but his was covered in finish. Do you know Ken.

Probably my wording was off track saying "all at one stage" should have probably been put trialed or produced a range of them at some time.

You didn't embarrass me, I probably shouldn't quote someone (even if he is a well known forum owner/show organiser over there). Without getting the facts, but if you email Gloomis these days you don't get the same reply as when Gary owned the company rather than just running it.

Keep up the imput and can you let me know what Gary says.

bearclawrods@irpimus.com.au

[cammac]

Thanks Steve for yr input and great pics - sorry to hear of Lord Nics passing!.
Not sure on the length of the rod yr using in the pic but looks like it has eight guides which wouldnt be far off a conventional overhead setup?

sorry for my ignorance on the subject but again on yr rod looks like the first six guides on the rod are basically underneath the rod whereas the stripper and the next guide seem to have quite a large rotation - do the others have the same degrees of rotation or are they more or less in a straight line? is the reel on top of the backbone as per conventional overhead? I shud read that article eh!!

cheers Cam

[Noelm]

OK I will repeat my first statement on this, I have built lots of spiral wraps over the years BUT I am yet to be convinced that they provide enough avantage of any type to warrant going out to buy one "just because" they have some novelty value and I am sure may have some minutely provable advantage but not a lot, and any advantage can be good I agree there, but still not totally conviced on any great "world news" that they are any better to use (and I have used them on a lot of good fish) than a standard bind, there that's my thoughts on this (for what it's worth)

[grave41]

Bugger,My 3 piece All Star titanium blank has gone from a spiral wrap back to ordinary. But i love my other spiral wrap. Graham

[cammac]

Can u actually buy them off the shelf in Australia? I mean a factory built rod not a custom job!

[Owen]

Can u actually buy them off the shelf in Australia? I mean a factory built rod not a custom job!

Yes, Shimano is doing them.

[ldnicolai1@comcast.n]

Hey Steve I have a mate Ken Preston over there, who has a lab but his was covered in finish. Do you know Ken.
No, I don't know him.


You didn't embarrass me, I probably shouldn't quote someone (even if he is a well known forum owner/show organiser over there). Without getting the facts, but if you email Gloomis these days you don't get the same reply as when Gary owned the company rather than just running it.
Gary sold GLoomis and I don't what his extent or involvement is, if any. I don't believe he owns a forum up here and I don't think he has done any work as a show organizer.

About 15 years ago he started the group, Fish First, in order to save a run of endangered Coho salmon ina tributary of the Lewis river. Presently, he is heavily involved in organizing a Pacific Northwest chapter of the CCA to address salmon and steelhead commercial overharvest.


Not sure on the length of the rod yr using in the pic but looks like it has eight guides which wouldnt be far off a conventional overhead setup?

sorry for my ignorance on the subject but again on yr rod looks like the first six guides on the rod are basically underneath the rod whereas the stripper and the next guide seem to have quite a large rotation - do the others have the same degrees of rotation or are they more or less in a straight line? is the reel on top of the backbone as per conventional overhead? I shud read that article eh!!


The stripper is aligned with the conventional top of the rod or angled to either side a little dependign on whether the owner is right or left handed. (The stripper guide can be used to help bring the line to the thumb for non-levelwind reels.)

The third guide and all the rest to the tip are all on the center bottom of the rod. For these rods, the first and third guides were positioned and the second or "bumper" guide is positioned where the line crosses the rod as it transitions to the bottom. Here is another pic that may illustrate it better. This rod is a Seeker 670-7' rated 30(40)50lbs. Here it is hanging 40oz of kead and a 3lb deadbait for halibut off the coast of Oregon in 100+ fathoms about 30nm off Newport.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/1and4.jpg

The Pacific Halibut....$14 US dollars a lb. This one was 52 inches and around 40 kilos.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/briansbutt.jpg

And just so you don't think everyday on the Pacific at the 45th parallel is a walk in the park, here is the same place a week later. Yes, that is my 23' boat 30 nautical miles west of the U.S.. We go 50-60nm after tuna. She now has a Honda 225hp.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r131/crabbait_photos/OldPics019.jpg


I am sure may have some minutely provable advantage but not a lot, and any advantage can be good I agree there, but still not totally conviced on any great "world news" that they are any better to use (and I have used them on a lot of good fish) than a standard bind, there that's my thoughts on this (for what it's worth)
If you are using a spiral wrapped rod and a gimbal/belt then you will see little advantage because you have kept the rod from rotating with the gimbal. Where they shine is fishing livebait for feeder tuna like albies and little yellowfin using 20-30lb gear and mushroom buttcaps. Being able to keep the foreward hand open instead of gripping the rod eliminates the forearm cramps that tend to come after the third or forth fish on a livebait stop. I also see fewer incidents of tip wrap when I am using t 9 or 10' rod and braid for freshwater bobber fsihing tidewater for big King chinook salmon. Your milage may vary...:)

[Noelm]

OR, you could just use a threadline and forget the whole thing!! including your gimbal belt, but still "to each his/her own".

[cammac]

Hmmm Noel now I not sure what your not in favour of here - spiral guide rods or overhead reels or both ! I dont see too many eggbeaters being used for serious game fishing ! or do u catch big Marlin etc on spinning gear??!

Thanks again Steve for your info on the subject and again Great Pics - 40 oz of lead thats pretty serious stuff on a Rod!!