Awonga Barra - terminal tackle

[Stonewall]

I am heading for Awonga in search of the meter + Barra. Many different opinions have been given on terminal tackle.
I will use 50 lb braid Spider Stealth to 10X 80 lb Pen leader.
Does the leader need to be twisted - seems a little thick ?
What length ;D ;D is necessary? one meter for deep water trolling , and long enough to wrap on reel for shallow snag area?
appreciate your thoughts
Thanks
Greg

[mylestom]

Greg,

Been a few threads on the tackle for this, I use a Jack Erskine type with about a metre of leader.
Bottom 12 twisted back on itself with clip and plastic sleeve. With crimp above the plastic sleeve and clip and one on end of twist.

Haven't had one fail me yet, but have had a few damaged that needed to be replaced. Halco coast lock size 6 clips have never let go, but some like to tie direct. Its all a matter or choice, once a big barra inhales your lures and goes for a bit of tail walk you will see the need for the twist. The strike rate didn't seem to change with this setup, but the in the boat rate did.


Good luck and enjoy your trip


Trev

[BigChiefBarra]

With an 80lb leader - no need for a twisted leader.
I fish 25lb line with a straight 50lb leader - landed plenty of 1m+ (touch wood)

[barradise]

Each to there own when it comes to big impoundment barra.
Both Mylestom and Happyrock seem to prefer different catch methods from what I can gather and that is not unusual for barra anglers.
I've used 30lb Platypus mono for years on a couple of outfits and have landed plenty of big Awoonga barra on this tackle, sometimes I don't bother using a trace at all, it just depends if I'm luring out in the open gutter areas or near known snag country.
Clips are fine to use to attach lures, never had a problem, just make sure that the clip has a rounded bottom section, NOT 90 DREGEE angled on one side as these clips jam lures and reduce swimming action.

John.

[Mak579]

Hey Guys,

Extremely debatable topic.

There are many different setups going around at the moment including single strand mono, twisted mono, wire , braid you name it!

All these setups obviously work (otherwise people wouldn't be using them) so I guess it's up to the individual angler to decide which will work for them.

Abrasive resistance is really what you're trying to achieve when selecting a leader and 10x is probably one of the toughest mono's out there!

Some other things to consider when selecting a leader.

Simple and easy - a lot of guys don't want any fancy stuff. Using crimps and clips requires special tools and some pre preparation.

Performance - does it impact on your choice of lure and how it swims. No good having a bullet proof leader if the lure action suffers and doesn't get any strikes.

Knots - big leaders generally have big knots which may impact on how the line runs through your guides when casting. (Probably not much of a problem when trolling)

Where - if your fishing timber or around rocks your probably going to want something you can really lean on to turn there head where out in the open you may be happy to let them run and tire themselves out.

How - what type of fishing are you doing. Casting , trolling, using hardbodies, soft plastics, down deep or high in the water column??

It's really up to the angler to decide where, how and what they're comfortable and have confidence with - I don't think there'a perfect setup for every type of fishing at the moment and it's only through experimentation that you'll find what works for you.

Me personally, I've been lucky enough to land a 116cm barra on 20lb flurocarbon leader, and then again lost sub 1m fish on 80lb mono.

If I was fishing for that fish of a life time I would be using the Jack Erskine type twisted mono leader as described by Trev.

Pic below is of a barra around the metre mark which inhaled a viper. Having lost three fish the previous day on straight mono leaders I have no doubt that I would've lost this one as well if not for the twisted type leader!

Matt C

[last_cast]

Mylestom,

Have heard of a few people using that leader system and have heard it described in a similar manner to your descritpion above. However I am a little too daft to understand completely how it is done. Is there any chance of some pics of the finished product? Or do you know a web page or a book where it is described with pictures? No worries if you don't have time to piss around with this.

Greg,

80lb would seem to me to be overkill for a leader twisted over its full length. It is also very difficult to tie knots in 80lb twisted (thus the crimp in Mylestom's description). Many people use 80lb straight so I think this is the way to go if you don't want to go down the same path as Mylestom. I think 40lb 10X twisted over its full legth would make a twisted good leader in which it is still possible to tie knots (Lefty-Kreh loop is the best for either the twisted leader or single strand). Good luck.

Cheers

[Mak579]

Last Cast,

Pic below of the Jack Erskine Type Leader.

Let me know if you have any questions and I'll do my best to answer them

Matt C

[last_cast]

Matt,

Brillinat pic, thanks for that. Now the questions.

1. Where do you get your tube from? Is it called anything in particular so I can enquire about it in a tackle store.

2. Is it a double barrel crimp, such that you feed the line through crimp-tube-crimp, crimp the line and then twist? Or is it a single barrell crimp, such that you put the tube on, twist the section and then put the crimp on?

3. What sort of knot do you use to finish your twists and stop them from unravelling?

4. What sort of line do you use to make your leader?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

[Mak579]

Probably the best way to answer would be to explain how I construct my leaders.

Materials
Mono Leader - I use 80lb Penn 10x or 80lb Stren
Crimps or Alum sleeves - make sure they're for mono and not wire
Halco cross lock snap - 50lb (I think)
Plastic tubing and bead - a lot of people use the beads and tubing when fishing for whiting.

Tools
try to use the proper crimpers if you can.


Building the leader can be seperated into two stages.

The first stage is making the loop with the tube and snap.
Thread 20-30mm of tubing onto the mono leader along with the Cross lock snap and a sleeve. Double the mono back through the sleeve, the tubing and snap should be in the loop created, then tighten the loop
so that the tubing is flush with the sleeve on both sides.Make sure you have at least a foot of mono on your tag side and then crimp the sleeve.(It's important that the loop you've created allows free movement of the cross locksnap, so not too small!)

The second stage is the twist.
I have a nail in the shed where once I've done the first stage I hang the leader up by the snap. If I've explained things correctly, coming out of the sleeve is two lengths of mono, one about a foot long and the other (which is the main leader line) 6-8foot, which you twist together.
I do that by grabbing a mono line in each hand between thumb and forefinger and then rolling them between thumb and finger so the mono ends up binding together( a bit like rope). The twisted section need only be around 20cm so once it's twisted to that length, and with the twists being neat and relatively tight, slide on another sleeve and crimp.
Trim the tag end flush with the last sleeve, thread the bead on the leader before tying onto the mainline, this stops the sleeve going throught the top eyelet.

The length of my leader depends on the rod, basically I try to keep the braid-leader connection knot from the reel.

As you can see it's probably not something you'd want to be doing on the water so I usually have a couple of spares on hand if they need replacing.

Cheers
Matt C

[last_cast]

That is a great description Matt. Got it all sorted in my mind now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. I am sure lots of other people will appreciate this as well.

[smee]

THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR THE DISCUSION FELLAS AS I LIVE HERE AND HAVE NOT CHASED THEM BUT WILL BE SOON HAVE MY BROTHER INLAW COMMING UP IN JAN FOR 8 DAYS BARRA FISHING ILL MAKE SOME FOR HIM ASWELL .
REGARDS SMEE

[mylestom]

Well described and saves me a bit of writing.
We have utilised these leaders and even then some of the really big fish will give them a fair bit of wear, so they will have to be replaced.

However with that setup you can swap and change lures all days without having to retie leaders all the time.

Sure some of the smaller outfits will catch fish and that is a matter of preference.
However the some of the guides on bigger fish also use this outfit on a daily basis and find that it works.

Have never (fingers crossed) had one let me down.
Don't get the chance to fish ever weekend on the impoundments, so when we do a trip we like to make sure what we have will do the job.

Horses for courses.

Have tried all the other leaders, Harro's twisted dogs, Straight mono, Flurocarbon leaders, Penn 10x single leader and also straight braid to braid leader with leaders of braid up to 200lb. But the one that has not let us down is the Jack Erskine Twisted leader.

Always carry half a dozen spare in the boat, but only had to replace them when a barra has busted the main braid line or got caught up deep in a snag and couldn't retrieve with the Strikeback lure retreiver.

Good luck and isn't this site the best for information.

Heaps of people willing to share experiences, all to help each other. Bloody good stuff.


Trev

[Big_Ren]

Great stuff Matt & Trev. Going to Awoonga for a week on Saturday so might even try the twisted leader out myself.

It's what I use for making billy lures up already, except with the use of a snap on the end instead of the tubed loop straight to the hooks (if that makes sense).

Cheers
Paul :)

[Stonewall]

:) Trev, Happyrock,John,Matt C,Myeestom,last_cast, Smee and Paul
Thanks for all you informative comments and detailed description + pics.
Appreciate the help and I hope it has helped others as well and it all goes to almost guaranteeing catching the meter plus prise.

Greg

[Stonewall]

Matt C
Tying leader to braid?
Do you platt the braid or bimminy?
Do you havea preferred knot for the two?
Greg

[Mak579]

Greg,

Bimini, Slim Beauty, Albright, Lefty's loop are all good knots that are strong enough to a handle a barra provided they are tied correctly.

Once again I don't think there is one setup for all occasions but I generally tie a 50 turn bimini to a 'Ted Donelan's Leader Connection'.

It's a little bit different and not as simple as some of the other knots but it's something I practised and tested and have a lot of confidence in. (no failures to date - touch wood)

Whatever knot you choose, make sure you tighten it as best you can (generally across your knees) and test your knots with each type of leader/braid material before you use them.

The reason I say this is as I was using a 'smooth leader knot' with 60lb Jinkai which was quite a solid setup, as soon as I went to 80lb Penn 10x the knot unravelled when the pressure was applied!

Different materials have different knot strengths.

Matt C

[Tip]

Matt C,

Great description, I had a go and had some success, although it seemed to take forever.

I was just wondering with the twisting of the leader, how much time does it normally take and is each strand of line twisted in the same direction or opposite direction.

Cheers

Mick

:)

[Mak579]

Hey Mick,

Yep, twist them opposite and they should bind together just like rope. I'm actually going to build some tomorrow so I'll post a few construction pics.

Cheers
Matt C

[Tip]

Thanks Matt, I think the pics would be a great help.

Mick

[Papa_Smurf]

Everyone has their own preferences. I have tried a range of leaders over the years. At night or when the fish are active it doesnt seem to matter - I usually use 50lb mono tied single strand straight to the 20lb braid. This has landed me around a dozen fish better than 120 and over one hundred better than a metre. I use the lighter braid to enable longer casts. At other times I have had to go down to 30lb hard mono leader when the fish are touchy (short striking, nudging the lures following etc). This works OK but you have to retie leaders after every fish that swallows the lures. I havent lost any fish through leaders chafing through that I remember mainly because these fish tend to spend most of their time in the air. The fish that swallow the lure jump around 5 times on average and usually dont run far. These ones usually dont take long to land.

John P.

[mikooh]

We generally use 50lb Penn 10x at Awoonga tied to the mainline with a slimbeauty and a loopknot to the lure and so far have not lost a fish to a chaffed leader, however one of the crew had a heap of trouble keeping his leader attached to 50lb Diawa sensor braid while we had no dramas with 20lb fireline or 36lb siglon techneed- it is very interesting how some lines just will not tie well in some situations, so check your chosen combination thorougly before it costs you the fish of a lifetime. Also re-tie your loopknot after each fish just to be safe.

[Mak579]

Sorry about the delay in posting pics....been busy fishing ;D

Materials
Mono Leader - I use 80lb Penn 10x or 80lb Stren
Crimps or Alum sleeves - make sure they're for mono and not wire
Halco cross lock snap - 50lb (I think)
Plastic tubing and bead - a lot of people use the beads and tubing when fishing for whiting.

Tools
try to use the proper crimpers if you can.

[Mak579]

The first stage is making the loop with the tube and snap.

Thread 20-30mm of tubing onto the mono leader along with the Cross lock snap and a sleeve.

[Mak579]

Double the mono back through the sleeve, the tubing and snap should be in the loop created, then tighten the loop so that the tubing is flush with the sleeve on both sides.Make sure you have at least a foot of mono on your tag side and then crimp the sleeve.(It's important that the loop you've created allows free movement of the cross locksnap, so not too small!)

[Mak579]

The second stage is the twist.

If I've explained things correctly, coming out of the sleeve is two lengths of mono, one about a foot long and the other (which is the main leader line) 6-8foot, which you twist together.

I do that by grabbing a mono line in each hand between thumb and forefinger and then rolling them between thumb and finger so the mono ends up binding together( a bit like rope).

The twisted section need only be around 20cm so once it's twisted to that length, and with the twists being neat and relatively tight, slide on another sleeve and crimp.

(In the original post I mentioned hanging the leader on nail by the snap, it may be easier to just to let it twist naturally, keep the tag ends 90 degrees to the twist ensures tight twists, as in pic)

[Mak579]

Trim the tag end flush with the last sleeve, thread the bead on the leader before tying onto the mainline, this stops the sleeve going throught the top eyelet.

[Mak579]

The finished product!

Construction only took a couple of minutes, make up a few before you head out as they still get quite chaffed and need replacing.

As I said earlier, I don't think there's one particular leader to suit all types of fishing but, if you were chasing the fish of a life time, this one would be my choice, it hasn't let me down......yet! ::)

Good luck guys,
Matt C

[last_cast]

Brilliant info and pics. Thanks Matt.

Cheers

[Tip]

Thanks Matt

Your a legend.

Mick

[Mad_Barry]

You're a real life handyman Matt ;D

Catch ya over the weekend sometime. ;)

[Steve_B]

I use 50lb fins braid attached to 60 black magic suple leader with improved albright knot and bimini twist. I TIE a loop knot to attach lure (no snap clip). Most importantly you can have all the best line and leader etc, but you must have good trebbles and split rings. Get rid of any trebbles that come with any lure on the market, they ALL straighten on big fish! I recommend only OWNER trebles and split rings. It will nearly cost you the price of the lure to fit one out but you wont regret it. I have caught 124cm barra and not had too much damage to the trebbles. Or you could have a lure that looks like this!!

[ipswichfisher]

Matt, that was one of the most informative threads i have seen for a long time. Mate, thankyou for taking the time and effort on producing that article on twisted leaders. This drives home the importance of leaders, braids etc after having a major problem on my bass outfit last week with a new roll of Daiwa Td Sensor tied to 20lb Vanish leader, the knots would tighten and test ok, but would come undone on first hit and even during casting. I found myself tying, re-testing and retying leader after leader and still ended up losing 5 lures. I was using an albright which i have used with 30lb Daiwa and 80lb Straight Jinkai and never had a problem. Got me scratching me head.

Darren :-[

[blue-mako]

All my questions have just been answered! ;D Thank you Matt! I could all most kiss you! ::) (By all most I mean all most) :P

Thanks, Troy

P.S. Just a few more simple questions :P . What size are those Halco Snaps? Also where did you get those crimps and how do you crimp them? Do you need special crimping tools like you use for wire? Or will a pair of pliers work fine?

[Bad_Bazza]

Can someone please let me know where the photos have gone from this thread.

I seem to remember that they were being moved elswhere on the site but have been unable to find them.
I have a friend that I want to help with tying these leaders and the photos were by far and away the best I have seen. As he lives a distance from me I cannot physically show him how to go about it.

Thanks in advance.
Bad_Bazza

[bishop]

Greg,


What ever floats your boat, I work on the KISS principle :-/ . The fewer things you have, the less to go wrong.:o


I use 30lb bionic braid with a 60lb black magic leader tied using an albright knot. Leader length is from the reel line guide to tip of rod plus 4-6 inches. I tie the leader direct to lures using a perfection loop. I use this setup on barra (1m+), large queenies and yellow tail kingies, hasn’t failed yet. And if it does, I would rather fish light and loose a few than catch nothing because I’m fishing to heavy


Advantages ;)
very simple
no additional bits required
easy to tie in the dark (after a bit of practice)
allows lure to swim freely
small knot travels through guides for easy casting
cheap


If you change lures frequently (which I do) the leader needs to be replaced every trip.

[Peter4]

We successfully used the Jack Erskine Twisted Leader (60lb Black Magic supple leader) on our last trip to Monduran, connected to either 30lb Bionic Braid or 30lb Tufline with an albright knot and we did not have any gear failure. A dob of loctite superglue prevents any knot slippage.

Between the two of us we managed 32 hook-ups for 16 barra boated up to 114cm.

Pete

[Mak579]

Guys,

I re posted the construction thread in the tackle section

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=115952

There are some new mono/fluoro material out now and I've found dropping down to 60lb is just as effective. Do your homework first though!

Cheers
Matt C